What Went Wrong?

[Fishking]

I am sorry, but all you have to show to support your statements are your words and you have proven repeatedly that your words have no value.

Sorry, but to me you are living in a fantasy land of your own making.

I accept your concession.

 

[devildavid]

We have debated the facts & figure of covid-19 before, so perhaps let's explore a new angle:


The economy is public health! We stop working, the number of dead will be counted in the millions….

~38,000 people per year were killed motor vehicle crashes, yet we can choose to drive
~77,000 deaths per year were killed Lung and bronchus cancer & 160,201 LRD, yet we can choose to smoke
~650,000 Americans per year from heart disease, yet we have the choice to live the lifestyles and at the weight we want
~85,000 Americans per year from Diabetes, but sugar isn't restricted or illegal
~50,000 Americans per year die from suicide, yet activities linked to higher rates of depression & anxiety are outright encouraged

But, by god man, 144,000 just died of a single virus, forget(link)! The median age of patients is 63 years old[this has a much reduced risk on the working age population], and 94% of them(hospitalization) had at least one comorbidity[other potiential deadly illnesss]. Forget our numbers had 5.2x hospitalization & 6.11x deaths in NY compared to Florida, despite similar inflection numbers/populations and Florida not NY with the more vulnerable population demographics. Forget every projected estimate is rapidly going down since the hospitalization/fatality curve is down treading, world number are showing lockdowns unnecessary, forget testing positive for covid-19 is counted regardless of other factors, forget the working population (18-55) has as low as a 1:7000 risk of developing deadly-symptoms. Forget lockdown, doesn't correlate with hospitalizations. Forget we've tested more people than any other country.

By the way, since heart attack treatments admissions were down 22% (our lead killer) since COVID-19 panic, how many people did this fear porn kill? Since suicides are linked to any economic downturn, how many lives will be counted with the economic disaster that is a lockdown?

:stop: the fear-mongering.

Everything you listed can't be contracted from human contact. COVID-19 can. People have freely chosen to follow good advice and not risk catching it.

 

[devildavid]

Liberals OK with large packed crowds of protesters that vandalized, destroyed businesses, cost cities and states money, and just caused more damage to the economy. Liberals at the same time not OK with people opening up in limited capacity and going back to work while taking precautions to try and save some of the economy.

Yeah...that makes sense.

No, liberals were not ok with that.

 

[Fishking]

No, liberals were not ok with that.

Sure they were. It was on the news all the time. It was all over social media. They were definitely OK with it.

 

[Luckyone]

I accept your concession.

Here is my concession. The woman you love has shown her true face

 

[devildavid]

Sure they were. It was on the news all the time. It was all over social media. They were definitely OK with it.

No, they were not ok with it. What news? Any quotes? Social media is not reliable and you can't tell if anyone's political views from it. They were not ok with it.

 

[avatar]

If you believe that I have some swampland in Florida for you to buy. Oh...and there is no need for "s around destruction by protesters because it's a reality.



Talk about being not being abreast of the facts. Texas, for example, is one of the states seeing a surge and we've only had limited opening of businesses.

Limited to bars and nightclubs?

 

[George50]

Damages from riots estimated to exceed $400 million, but it was really just a few malcontents. :shock:

Your link describes looters, not rioting, and certainly not protesters. Some malcontents, yes, from the left and the right. But also ordinary criminals taking advantage of the situation.

Much of the looting was done after the protesters went home. For example:

“In New York City, organized groups cased businesses during the day before returning to ransack stores at night after peaceful protests ended.”

The protesters were certainly not happy with the looters who were not part of the protest but gave you people an excuse to denounce the protesters who were overwhelmingly peaceful.

Looters Damage Businesses, Anger Protesters - WSJ


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[PIPEWRENCH]

A lot of people never stopped working, and yet, only now we are seeing an uptick.

The responsible people are doing just fine. Where I worked they never closed and not a single person has contracted the disease. All my friends that are plumbers have not stopped working and all are doing just fine. All my friends working at the pharmacy are just fine, the grocery store, the post office, and the local hardware store are all just fine.
They are proof that responsible people never needed to close in the first place. Now the irresponsible are another story.

 

[George50]

If you believe that I have some swampland in Florida for you to buy. Oh...and there is no need for "s around destruction by protesters because it's a reality.



Talk about being not being abreast of the facts. Texas, for example, is one of the states seeing a surge and we've only had limited opening of businesses.

Talk about not being abreast of the facts! The poster you replied to said the reopening of restaurants and bars too early was a big part of the problem. The Texas governor himself said the biggest mistake he made was allowing bars to reopen.

I think your definition of limited opening of business is different than most people’s:

“Abbott put Texas under what was effectively a stay-at-home order for most of April, shutting down all but businesses considered essential by the state. After letting that order expire at the end of April, he moved forward with a phased reopening of the state that was one of the earliest and quickest in the country. By early June, Abbott had permitted almost all business to open at at least 50% capacity.”

“Gov. Greg Abbott on Friday took his most drastic action yet to respond to the post-reopening coronavirus surge in Texas, shutting bars back down and scaling back restaurant capacity to 50%.”

Texas closes bars, limits restaurant occupancy as coronavirus cases rise | The Texas Tribune


Open
Retail Retail stores, malls
Food and drink Restaurant dining
Personal care Salons, barbershops, etc.; Massage services
Houses of worship
Entertainment Movie theaters, museums, libraries; Bowling alleys, bingo halls, skating rinks, rodeos; Aquariums; Amusement parks; Carnivals
Outdoor and recreation State parks; Pools; Gyms; Water parks; Zoos
Industries Offices, manufacturing

Closed
Food and drink - Bars


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[Mithros]

Lol, is that what the actual data says? Please cite.

And if large outdoor gatherings are totally cool, why did libs pitch such a fit when Florida started opening beaches? Shouldn't all outdoor activities be allowed to restart?

Large outdoor gatherings where people predominately wear masks are significantly safer than indoor gatherings. That does not make them safe.

The recent nationwide surge has been concentrated in Florida, Texas, and Arizona. Protests occurred all over the country. We did not see upticks in infections until idiots in our communities went and partied with the idiots in Florida, Texas, and Arizona. They came back and packed into bars, restaurants, and churches, didn't wear masks, and got more people sick.

Put a smoker inside, they'll quickly fill the entire room with smoke. If you go in the room you'll smell like cigarette smoke. Put the same person outside and it's a lot less noticeable. Now replace cigarette smoke with aerosolized virus.
This is really simple. Indoor gatherings with large numbers of people not wearing masks drives explosive growth of the virus. Indoor transmission rates are 20x that of outdoor.

 

[JMaximus]

Key word is that if Trump had followed CDC guidelines in his recommendations of reopening, deaths would have been prevented. He had control over that.

How many states followed Trump's recommendations?

 

[Luckyone]

How many states followed Trump's recommendations?

Quite a few. I do know that my own state (Florida) followed Trump blindly and we are suffering because of it. I also know that Arizona and Texas did as well as those states also have Republican Governors that are Trump supporters.

 

[longview]

I was looking at the statistics for my County (Harris) in Texas.
Texas COVID-19 Data
This data is from the "Cases over Time by County" spreadsheet for Harris county
I was able to break down the average daily new cases by week.

4/24-4/30 135 average new cases per day
5/1-5/7 154 Texas begins opening
5/8-5/14 196
5/15-5/21 210
5/22-5/28 206
5/29-6/4 246 Floyd Protest/Memorial Day
6/5-6/11 326
6/12-6/18 372
6/19-6/25 1089
6/36- 6/29 ~1000

It looks like after things opened up, new cases were averaging between 135 and 246 new cases per day,
but roughly 1 week after Memorial day and the Floyd protest, new cases started climbing fast!

 

[Old Sarge]

But it only makes one a hypocrite to do so.

Are you saying you're a hypocrite? I hope you are a true conservative Republican instead of a Trump apologist. I voted Trump but that doesn't mean I walk in lockstep with him.

 

[JMaximus]

I also know that Arizona and Texas did as well as those states also have Republican Governors that are Trump supporters.

Wait... do you know the states followed Trump's recommendations because you compared Trump's recommendations to the plans and actions of those states or do you 'know' they followed his recommendations because they "have Republican Governors that are Trump supporters"?

 

[Luckyone]

Wait... do you know the states followed Trump's recommendations because you compared Trump's recommendations to the plans and actions of those states or do you 'know' they followed his recommendations because they "have Republican Governors that are Trump supporters"?

I do know that Trump recommended opening up the economy on May 1st and the CDC said that they should not open before June 1st and then only if they met the guidelines for reopening. Those states opened their economy on May 1st, suggesting they followed Trump's recommendations and not the CDC recommendations. Whether the states opened their economies due to Trump or to their own thoughts, I do not know for sure but given that they could NOT reopen before the president gave the "go ahead", common sense would say "they followed Trump's recommendations.

 

[longview]

I do know that Trump recommended opening up the economy on May 1st and the CDC said that they should not open before June 1st and then only if they met the guidelines for reopening. Those states opened their economy on May 1st, suggesting they followed Trump's recommendations and not the CDC recommendations. Whether the states opened their economies due to Trump or to their own thoughts, I do not know for sure but given that they could NOT reopen before the president gave the "go ahead", common sense would say "they followed Trump's recommendations.

Do you have a citation, where the CDC advised a particular state not to reopen on May 1, but wait until June 1?
I found this,
CDC director says 19-20 U.S. states may be ready to reopen May 1 - Reuters
but as I recall the ability to reopen was tied to new cases and not to a particular date.

 

[Luckyone]

Do you have a citation, where the CDC advised a particular state not to reopen on May 1, but wait until June 1?
I found this,
CDC director says 19-20 U.S. states may be ready to reopen May 1 - Reuters
but as I recall the ability to reopen was tied to new cases and not to a particular date.

Here is your answer

States shouldn't reopen before May 1, coronavirus model shows

Montana has the best forecast at May 1, while the only other states that should open by May 10, the model says, are Alaska, Hawaii, North Carolina, Vermont and West Virginia. North Carolina is the only of the six states with more than 1,000 cases, as of Wednesday afternoon.

About half the states in the country should remain closed until May 25 or later, with Arizona (June 23), South Dakota (June 25), Iowa (June 26), Nebraska (June 30) and North Dakota (July 12) rounding out the bottom of the list.

 

[jakiejakester]

I was looking at the statistics for my County (Harris) in Texas.
Texas COVID-19 Data
This data is from the "Cases over Time by County" spreadsheet for Harris county
I was able to break down the average daily new cases by week.

4/24-4/30 135 average new cases per day
5/1-5/7 154 Texas begins opening
5/8-5/14 196
5/15-5/21 210
5/22-5/28 206
5/29-6/4 246 Floyd Protest/Memorial Day
6/5-6/11 326
6/12-6/18 372
6/19-6/25 1089
6/36- 6/29 ~1000

It looks like after things opened up, new cases were averaging between 135 and 246 new cases per day,
but roughly 1 week after Memorial day and the Floyd protest, new cases started climbing fast!

When were bars and indoor dining reopened in Texas? That's the key IMHO. Alcohol = no masks, no social distancing and lots of new cases. Sadly, in about 10 days we'll start to see the number of deaths in TX, FL, CA, SC, AZ, AL, NC, UT et al increase significantly.

 

[longview]

Here is your answer

Your link did not work, but it was to CNN not the CDC.
Also which state opened that was advised not to?

 

[longview]

When were bars and indoor dining reopened in Texas? That's the key IMHO. Alcohol = no masks, no social distancing and lots of new cases. Sadly, in about 10 days we'll start to see the number of deaths in TX, FL, CA, SC, AZ, AL, NC, UT et al increase significantly.

Indoor dining opened at 25% on May 1, Bars, I think opened on May 18.
Texas reopening schedule: Here are the rules around restaurants, retailers | The Texas Tribune

Abbott also said a second wave of openings and looser restrictions that will include barbershops, hair salons,
bars and gyms could go into effect as early as May 18, as long as the state sees "two weeks of data to confirm no flare-up of COVID-19.

Had that alone been the cause, the jump would have been by June 1,
but what we saw, was a big jump 2 to 3 weeks after June 1.

 

[jakiejakester]

Indoor dining opened at 25% on May 1, Bars, I think opened on May 18.
Texas reopening schedule: Here are the rules around restaurants, retailers | The Texas Tribune

Had that alone been the cause, the jump would have been by June 1,
but what we saw, was a big jump 2 to 3 weeks after June 1.

I disagree. That was a week before Memorial Day weekend and that's when people let loose and alcohol took hold on the general population in bars etc. Why do you think your governor closed bars now if it was a non-factor? It took to last weekend for him to tell people to wear masks. He's complicit. He's a Trump butt licker and following Trump's advice got Texas to where it is today, just like Florida, AZ, SC, AR, NC, AL, UT. All red states and all opened differently than we are here in NY where we literally followed the CDC guidelines step by step and where we now have the lowest infection rate in the country. Coincidence? NO! SCIENCE!

 

[Eatomus]

Tens of thousands of Covid warriors out there beating back virus with the combined preemptive oxygen & 2 pack a day lung busting formulary .
Just because the fake right wing media does not report the awesome progress being made does not mean it is not going on .
Check yourself Luckyone .

 

[longview]

I disagree. That was a week before Memorial Day weekend and that's when people let loose and alcohol took hold on the general population in bars etc. Why do you think your governor closed bars now if it was a non-factor? It took to last weekend for him to tell people to wear masks. He's complicit. He's a Trump butt licker and following Trump's advice got Texas to where it is today, just like Florida, AZ, SC, AR, NC, AL, UT. All red states and all opened differently than we are here in NY where we literally followed the CDC guidelines step by step and where we now have the lowest infection rate in the country. Coincidence? NO! SCIENCE!

So when did NY open their bars?
I am not saying the Bars are not a factor, but the crowds of people without masks during the protests were enormous.

The timing for the bars being the primary cause is also off, the bars had been open for a month, when the new cases started to spike,
with a virus that has a 5 to 10 day incubation period.
No! Things really started increasing until about June 7, when the first big daily spike hit,
6/6 337 new cases
6/7 483 new cases.
Some of this is also mixed in with testing nearly doubling since mid May, but that also is not the only factor.