What Went Wrong?

[reflechissez]

And yet, many states started opening in early May, with no flareups until now. Gee, what has happened in the interim? Does the virus ignore large sweaty crowds committing violence?

Show your work.

 

[Conaeolos]

We have debated the facts & figure of covid-19 before, so perhaps let's explore a new angle:

…prioritize the economy over public health…

The economy is public health! We stop working, the number of dead will be counted in the millions….

~38,000 people per year were killed motor vehicle crashes, yet we can choose to drive
~77,000 deaths per year were killed Lung and bronchus cancer & 160,201 LRD, yet we can choose to smoke
~650,000 Americans per year from heart disease, yet we have the choice to live the lifestyles and at the weight we want
~85,000 Americans per year from Diabetes, but sugar isn't restricted or illegal
~50,000 Americans per year die from suicide, yet activities linked to higher rates of depression & anxiety are outright encouraged

But, by god man, 144,000 just died of a single virus, forget(link)! The median age of patients is 63 years old[this has a much reduced risk on the working age population], and 94% of them(hospitalization) had at least one comorbidity[other potiential deadly illnesss]. Forget our numbers had 5.2x hospitalization & 6.11x deaths in NY compared to Florida, despite similar inflection numbers/populations and Florida not NY with the more vulnerable population demographics. Forget every projected estimate is rapidly going down since the hospitalization/fatality curve is down treading, world number are showing lockdowns unnecessary, forget testing positive for covid-19 is counted regardless of other factors, forget the working population (18-55) has as low as a 1:7000 risk of developing deadly-symptoms. Forget lockdown, doesn't correlate with hospitalizations. Forget we've tested more people than any other country.

By the way, since heart attack treatments admissions were down 22% (our lead killer) since COVID-19 panic, how many people did this fear porn kill? Since suicides are linked to any economic downturn, how many lives will be counted with the economic disaster that is a lockdown?

:stop: the fear-mongering.

 

[avatar]

We have debated the facts & figure of covid-19 before, so perhaps let's explore a new angle:


The economy is public health! We stop working, the number of dead will be counted in the millions….

~38,000 people per year were killed motor vehicle crashes, yet we can choose to drive
~77,000 deaths per year were killed Lung and bronchus cancer & 160,201 LRD, yet we can choose to smoke
~650,000 Americans per year from heart disease, yet we have the choice to live the lifestyles and at the weight we want
~85,000 Americans per year from Diabetes, but sugar isn't restricted or illegal
~50,000 Americans per year die from suicide, yet activities linked to higher rates of depression & anxiety are outright encouraged

But, by god man, 144,000 just died of a single virus, forget(link)! The median age of patients is 63 years old[this has a much reduced risk on the working age population], and 94% of them(hospitalization) had at least one comorbidity[other potiential deadly illnesss]. Forget our numbers had 5.2x hospitalization & 6.11x deaths in NY compared to Florida, despite similar inflection numbers/populations and Florida not NY with the more vulnerable population demographics. Forget every projected estimate is rapidly going down since the hospitalization/fatality curve is down treading, world number are showing lockdowns unnecessary, forget testing positive for covid-19 is counted regardless of other factors, forget the working population (18-55) has as low as a 1:7000 risk of developing deadly-symptoms. Forget lockdown, doesn't correlate with hospitalizations. Forget we've tested more people than any other country.

By the way, since heart attack treatments admissions were down 22% (our lead killer) since COVID-19 panic, how many people did this fear porn kill? Since suicides are linked to any economic downturn, how many lives will be counted with the economic disaster that is a lockdown?

:stop: the fear-mongering.

More whataboutism. It's always a deflection from the current discussion and it's always an excuse.

 

[Luckyone]

The CDC is an administrative agency, i.e. it ultimately answers to Trump.

Trump didn't open anything. The individual governors did.

Are you thick in the head?

The CDC is under Trump but they are the experts at pandemics (not Trump), meaning that Trump should be listening to them and not the other way around.

Trump did not open anything but he recommended that the Governors do and the Republicans Governors usually do what Trump suggests they do.

End of story.

 

[Luckyone]

Absolutely. We all accept a certain level of unnecessary risks every day.

We accept risk every day, but risk that can be prevented...............NOT, unless you have incompetence at the top. Unnecessary risk is exactly what the word entails........UNNECESSARY. If you personally want to take the risk, that is your decision but no one else should put you in risk because they are willing to take the risk. You don't agree?

 

[Luckyone]

We have debated the facts & figure of covid-19 before, so perhaps let's explore a new angle:


The economy is public health! We stop working, the number of dead will be counted in the millions….

~38,000 people per year were killed motor vehicle crashes, yet we can choose to drive
~77,000 deaths per year were killed Lung and bronchus cancer & 160,201 LRD, yet we can choose to smoke
~650,000 Americans per year from heart disease, yet we have the choice to live the lifestyles and at the weight we want
~85,000 Americans per year from Diabetes, but sugar isn't restricted or illegal
~50,000 Americans per year die from suicide, yet activities linked to higher rates of depression & anxiety are outright encouraged

But, by god man, 144,000 just died of a single virus, forget(link)! The median age of patients is 63 years old[this has a much reduced risk on the working age population], and 94% of them(hospitalization) had at least one comorbidity[other potiential deadly illnesss]. Forget our numbers had 5.2x hospitalization & 6.11x deaths in NY compared to Florida, despite similar inflection numbers/populations and Florida not NY with the more vulnerable population demographics. Forget every projected estimate is rapidly going down since the hospitalization/fatality curve is down treading, world number are showing lockdowns unnecessary, forget testing positive for covid-19 is counted regardless of other factors, forget the working population (18-55) has as low as a 1:7000 risk of developing deadly-symptoms. Forget lockdown, doesn't correlate with hospitalizations. Forget we've tested more people than any other country.

By the way, since heart attack treatments admissions were down 22% (our lead killer) since COVID-19 panic, how many people did this fear porn kill? Since suicides are linked to any economic downturn, how many lives will be counted with the economic disaster that is a lockdown?

:stop: the fear-mongering.

That is the job of Congress to decide given that Congress is the representative of the people. One man (Trump) should not decide for you and for all what is best because his OWN guidelines (not ours) is what is being used. This is why we have a Congress that represents the people and therefore it should be decided by a democratic vote. In addition, that is the reason why we have departments like the CDC to guide us in those pandemic decisions as they are the best suited for what is to come.

Proof is in the pudding now, given than the reopening which was decided by Trump and not by Congress vote, is now going to affect the economy more than if we would have followed the CDC guidelines. Meaning that all your huff and puff is working against you because now things are worse economically than if the CDC guidelines (not Trump's) would have been followed.

This is the reason why we have experts in every phase of government. We are SUPPOSED to be led by majority decisions (meaning Congress getting involved) and not by one man, who does not represent the people. He represents only himself and his limited knowledge.

 

[George50]

And yet, many states started opening in early May, with no flareups until now. Gee, what has happened in the interim? Does the virus ignore large sweaty crowds committing violence?

You ignore that there were not crowds committing violence. Those committing violence were a very small number. There were a very large number of protesters. There has been no evidence that the protests have contributed significantly to the spread of the virus, probably because the overwhelming majority of protesters were wearing masks. Trump’s rallies are much more likely to spread the virus since they are indoors and the overwhelming majority do not wear masks.

The biggest correlation between activities and the virus so far has been not following the rules in bars and restaurants.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[George50]

Haha, are the rioters follow CDC guidelines?

The number of rioters was negligible.


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[Fishking]

What Went Wrong - Explained:

Clear and simply explained!

Trump got in the way of the recovery. One more reason to tag Trump as incompetent and uncaring about American lives!

Liberals OK with large packed crowds of protesters that vandalized, destroyed businesses, cost cities and states money, and just caused more damage to the economy. Liberals at the same time not OK with people opening up in limited capacity and going back to work while taking precautions to try and save some of the economy.

Yeah...that makes sense.

 

[reflechissez]

Liberals OK with large packed crowds of protesters that vandalized, destroyed businesses, cost cities and states money, and just caused more damage to the economy. Liberals at the same time not OK with people opening up in limited capacity and going back to work while taking precautions to try and save some of the economy.

Yeah...that makes sense.

That's not what you people did.

 

[Luckyone]

Liberals OK with large packed crowds of protesters that vandalized, destroyed businesses, cost cities and states money, and just caused more damage to the economy. Liberals at the same time not OK with people opening up in limited capacity and going back to work while taking precautions to try and save some of the economy.

Yeah...that makes sense.

Whatever you say. Facts are not going to convince you. Nonetheless, it has been found that closed enclosures, such as bars and restaurants, have been the greatest contributors to increasing the virus spread...............and not the "destruction by protesters"

Texas bars and restaurants were eager to reopen. Now some are closing their doors again as coronavirus cases rise.

That means the fault lies with the Governors that followed Trump guidelines (not CDC guidelines) for reopening. Throw away your blame of Liberals. That is just political and biased hot air. Trump is the main culprit. He is the one in charge. Even if rioters caused some of this, who are you going to blame and depend on to fix the problem.............hahaha

 

[Conaeolos]

That is the job of Congress to decide given that Congress is the representative of the people. One man (Trump) should not decide for you and for all what is best because his OWN guidelines (not ours) is what is being used. This is why we have a Congress that represents the people and therefore it should be decided by a democratic vote. In addition, that is the reason why we have departments like the CDC to guide us in those pandemic decisions as they are the best suited for what is to come.

Proof is in the pudding now, given than the reopening which was decided by Trump and not by Congress vote, is now going to affect the economy more than if we would have followed the CDC guidelines. Meaning that all your huff and puff is working against you because now things are worse economically than if the CDC guidelines (not Trump's) would have been followed.

This is the reason why we have experts in every phase of government. We are SUPPOSED to be led by majority decisions (meaning Congress getting involved) and not by one man, who does not represent the people. He represents only himself and his limited knowledge.

I am not 100% sure what you're on about, but I am pretty confident I know where it's headed...

Confidence in Institutions(2019, source)
The military: 73%
The police: 53%
Small business: 68%
The Supreme Court: 38%
The Presidency: 38%
Church: 36%
The medical system: 36%
Banks: 30%
Organized labor: 29%
The public schools: 29%
The criminal justice system: 24%
Big business: 23%
Newspapers: 23%
Television news: 18%
Congress: 11%

We the people, indeed. :lol:

 

[Noodlegawd]

Trump did nothing, you are correct. No other President since WWII would have allowed there not to be a federal response, with guidelines that each state should follow to reopen. You're right, Trump did NOTHING except and that contributed to tens of thousands of unnecessary deaths so far with sadly, many more tens of thousands still to come. Even sadder, Trump couldn't give a sh** who dies. He only cares about himself.

I see, so you'd rather blame the guy who didn't say not to reopen, instead of the guy who actually reopened even though everyone else with any credentials said not to. That's some genius deflection there.

 

[Luckyone]

I am not 100% sure what you're on about, but I am pretty confident I know where it's headed...

Confidence in Institutions(2019, source)
The military: 73%
The police: 53%
Small business: 68%
The Supreme Court: 38%
The Presidency: 38%
Church: 36%
The medical system: 36%
Banks: 30%
Organized labor: 29%
The public schools: 29%
The criminal justice system: 24%
Big business: 23%
Newspapers: 23%
Television news: 18%
Congress: 11%

We the people, indeed. :lol:

and you forgot the most important one

Confidence in Trump: 0%

I do agree with you that trusting Congress, especially the Senate with McConnell running is, untrustworthy. Nonetheless, that is what are the guidelines given to us by the Constitution and to change them we need to do it through votes (which will happen this November).

Changing the Constitution is not an option at this time and the Constitution does not give the President the right to make decisions for the country by himself. End of story!

 

[Fishking]

That's not what you people did.

That's 100% what happened. That you're ill-informed on the subject is not my issue. For example, I'm currently living in Texas, and we have most definitely only partially opened up. We were not back to full business as usual by any means.

 

[Conaeolos]

The number of rioters was negligible.

Damages from riots estimated to exceed $400 million, but it was really just a few malcontents. :shock:

 

[Fishking]

Whatever you say. Facts are not going to convince you. Nonetheless, it has been found that closed enclosures, such as bars and restaurants, have been the greatest contributors to increasing the virus spread...............and not the "destruction by protesters"

If you believe that I have some swampland in Florida for you to buy. Oh...and there is no need for "s around destruction by protesters because it's a reality.

That means the fault lies with the Governors that followed Trump guidelines (not CDC guidelines) for reopening. Throw away your blame of Liberals. That is just political and biased hot air. Trump is the main culprit. He is the one in charge. Even if rioters caused some of this, who are you going to blame and depend on to fix the problem.............hahaha

Talk about being not being abreast of the facts. Texas, for example, is one of the states seeing a surge and we've only had limited opening of businesses.

 

[Luckyone]

If you believe that I have some swampland in Florida for you to buy. Oh...and there is no need for "s around destruction by protesters because it's a reality.



Talk about being not being abreast of the facts. Texas, for example, is one of the states seeing a surge and we've only had limited opening of businesses.

I am sorry, but all you have to show to support your statements are your words and you have proven repeatedly that your words have no value.

Sorry, but to me you are living in a fantasy land of your own making.

 

[Noodlegawd]

Are you thick in the head?

The CDC is under Trump but they are the experts at pandemics (not Trump), meaning that Trump should be listening to them and not the other way around.

Trump did not open anything but he recommended that the Governors do and the Republicans Governors usually do what Trump suggests they do.

End of story.

There's only one thick head in this conversation, and it's not mine.

Are you afraid to address whether Newsom was listening to Trump, or the CDC, or just to thick-headed to figure it out?

 

[justabubba]

COVID-19 - Coronavirus Disease What Went Wrong?

this:

How the Virus Won
Invisible outbreaks sprang up everywhere. The United States ignored the warning signs. We analyzed travel patterns, hidden infections and genetic data to show how the epidemic spun out of control.



How the Virus Won - The New York Times

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

Except that that conservative isn't related in any way to racist, or fascist, that's your side.

Conservatives

Strict moral laws, anti immigration, anti foreigner, against higher education. Sounds like most fascists to me. Keep the masses poor, use minorities and foreigners to drive support for the government, use religion to drive support for the government.

 

[Luckyone]

There's only one thick head in this conversation, and it's not mine.

Are you afraid to address whether Newsom was listening to Trump, or the CDC, or just to thick-headed to figure it out?

Good bye, you are not worth my time. You make no sense and have nothing to back up your statements other than your own beliefs and you have proven those beliefs are not based on fact but on bias.

 

[Noodlegawd]

Good bye, you are not worth my time. You make no sense and have nothing to back up your statements other than your own beliefs and you have proven those beliefs are not based on fact but on bias.

Wow, what a copout. Can't answer the question, can you?

 

[What if...?]

this:

How the Virus Won
Invisible outbreaks sprang up everywhere. The United States ignored the warning signs. We analyzed travel patterns, hidden infections and genetic data to show how the epidemic spun out of control.



How the Virus Won - The New York Times

Way back when we first saw single cases away from the coasts I called that it was already all over the country and spreading..

It is amazing how ignorant of how viruses work and how they are addressed people still are.

Not just people who consume conservative media. Folks across the various spectra.

It's not common knowledge but it's also not rocket surgery at the level folks need to understand our current situation.

I got quite alarmed at how many smart, educated people I had to explain to that we had flattened the curve of an outbreak of a contagion, not the contagion itself. That it wasn't over, or past. Just "paused".

Evidently they weren't the only ones who thought that...

 

[What if...?]

Damages from riots estimated to exceed $400 million, but it was really just a few malcontents. :shock:

Hell, that bank that guy burned in La Mesa probably cost 5-10 percent of that.

I would have thought it was much more by the news.