Israel Isolated as UN Security Council Demands Immediate Ceasefire in Gaza

[TU Curmudgeon]

If you want to believe habitual liars, be my guest. I'm not that dumb or naive. Here's an Israeli source:

Netanyahu is running out of lies

***

www.haaretz.com

If Jews, in Israel, know of Netanyahu's prolific lies through long experience, why would you trust him?

When you find the "Pro-X" media (i.e. the Middle East Media Organization) and the "Anti-X" media (i.e. "Haaretz") saying the same thing you are in the wonderful position of being able to totally dismiss what both the "Pro-X" and "Anti-X" media are saying because it is being said by whichever of the two you don't belong to.

On the other hand, if the "Pro-X" and the "Anti-X" media are saying the same thing, a reasonably rational person would likely conclude that there is more than a little truth in what they are saying.

As an example of how that works, if the "Democracy Now" and "Mother Jones" both come out with articles "exposing racism in America" then the RTB (Real True Believer) on EITHER side can conclude that there is absolutely no racism in America because "_[fill in the blank]_ said there was and evrewunknoz that _[fill in the blank]_ is a shill for _[fill in the blank]_ and always lies".

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

1) Who is responsible for placing Hamas in that position, other than Hamas itself?

2) People keep forgetting it’s part of Hamas’ mission statement to not only end the existence of Israel but to push every last Israel into the sea.

So while I’m no fan of Netanyahu and believe him to be the Israeli Donald Trump, it’s not lost on me what the Israeli people are feeling about this and why they are supporting the war effort.

There is a difference between "supporting the war effort" and "supporting genocide". At this point it appears that the Israeli government has slipped over the line.

The "honourable" thing to do here is to actually declare war on the other side. Of course Hamas won't do that because its leadership is well aware that they would be crushed in a matter of days if they did so. And, of course, the Israelis won't do that because the Israeli leadership is well aware that they would forfeit all "moral advantage" if they declared war on a people that they have kept under their economic thumb for decades.

 

[Lord of Planar]

"Allowed"? The UN is not in the position, nor is in its remit, to prevent aggression. I guess you don't care that Israel has routinely violated just about every tenet of international law, international humanitarian law, and the Geneva conventions since it was formed in 1948. The long, long list of UN Resolutions condemning Israel's illegal activities is yours to read, enjoy and digest; more resolutions, in fact, than any nation in the history of the UN.

List of United Nations resolutions concerning Palestine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Would they be violating these imposed laws they disagree with if they were not constantly attacked?

 

[Ethel2]

If you want to believe habitual liars, be my guest. I'm not that dumb or naive. Here's an Israeli source:

Netanyahu is running out of lies

***

www.haaretz.com

If Jews, in Israel, know of Netanyahu's prolific lies through long experience, why would you trust him?

I don’t trust him. I don’t believe or disbelieve him since I don’t know for certain what is actually going on on the ground. I remain neutral until more information is available. Then I’ll decide if he was lying or telling the truth.
Why do you automatically and consistently disbelieve whatever the Jewish government says even though you have no more access to data than I have?

 

[Ethel2]

I see, so recognizing t hat "Person A" who lives in "Country B" where the majority of the people subscribe to "Religion C" has a lengthy history of being "less than scrupulously honest at all times" is the same thing as "hating Religion C" - at least as far as you are concerned.

Did you know that vast numbers of people (very likely a majority) recognize that "-Person A- Mr. DJ Trump" who lives in "-Country B- the USA" where the majority of the people subscribe to "-Religion C-Christianity" has a lengthy history of being "less than scrupulously honest at all times"?

Doesn't it upset you that that many people (amongst whom you will find both ';The Pope" and 'The Archbishop of Canterbury') "hate Christianity"?

I won’t even try to understand your ridiculous and irrelevant attempt at an analogy.
Try harder.

 

[snakestretcher]

I don’t trust him. I don’t believe or disbelieve him since I don’t know for certain what is actually going on on the ground. I remain neutral until more information is available. Then I’ll decide if he was lying or telling the truth.
Why do you automatically and consistently disbelieve whatever the Jewish government says even though you have no more access to data than I have?

Why? Experience. 'Trust, but verify'. If you can't verify, don't trust. Simple.

 

[Ethel2]

Right.

BUT you do believe that Israel is 100% in the right and Hamas is 100% in the wrong.

Show me where I wrote that or admit you made it up.
The pigs have been committing inexcusable acts of terror for decades. The Israelis continue to displace Palestinians from their homes on the West Bank and have not taken sufficient safeguards to protect civilians in Gaza. There is also credible evidence that Israeli soldiers have killed unarmed civilians.
Both sides have dirty hands-as is always the case in war.

 

[snakestretcher]

Would they be violating these imposed laws they disagree with if they were not constantly attacked?

They violated the law for over 50 years. Who is the illegal occupier? Israel.

 

[Ethel2]

Why? Experience.

One of your problems is that you seem to believe that liars ALWAYS lie. That is a mistake. If I lied about something yesterday that doesn’t mean I lied about something else today.
I don’t trust Netanyahu. But that’s different than assuming that everything he says is a lie.

 

[snakestretcher]

One of your problems is that you seem to believe that liars ALWAYS lie. That is a mistake. If I lied about something yesterday that doesn’t mean I lied about something else today.
I don’t trust Netanyahu. But that’s different than assuming that everything he says is a lie.

I maintain that anyone who has blatantly and repeatedly lied about matters of life and death involving millions of innocents, should never be trusted. We aren't discussing a trivial 'lie' about a kid not doing his homework which affects nobody, but claiming he did.

 

[Ethel2]

They violated the law from day one. Who is the illegal occupier? Israel.

That’s another of the many problems you have: you seem to believe that Israel has no right to exist. That’s evidence imo of antisemitic thinking. Israel absolutely has the right to exist:

Loading…

www.gov.il

 

[Ethel2]

I believe anyone who has blatantly lied about matters of life and death involving millions of innocents, should never be trusted. We aren't discussing a 'lie' about a kid not doing his homework, but claiming he did.

Correct
I don’t trust him
I don’t believe him
Neither do I disbelieve him
I am neutral
You should try it sometime

 

[snakestretcher]

That’s another of the many problems you have: you seem to believe that Israel has no right to exist. That’s evidence imo of antisemitic thinking. Israel absolutely has the right to exist:

Loading…

www.gov.il

Silly. Israel has every right to exist; within her own borders, not on land which was never Israel's and is illegally occupied according to international law. Do you really have no idea what's been going on since 1967?

Israeli-occupied territories - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territory - Global Centre for the Responsibility to Protect

Since 7 October 2023 Israeli forces have perpetrated likely war crimes and crimes against humanity in Gaza and the Occupied West Bank. Palestinians face mounting risks of ethnic cleansing and genocide. Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups have also perpetrated likely atrocity crimes.

www.globalr2p.org

Israel’s illegal occupation of Palestinian territory, tantamount to ‘settler-colonialism’: UN expert | DEPARTMENT OF OPERATIONAL SUPPORT

Israel’s occupation is illegal and indistinguishable from a “settler-colonial” situation, which must end, as a pre-condition for Palestinians to exercise their right to self-determination, the UN’s independent expert on the occupied Palestinian territory said on Thursday.

operationalsupport.un.org

https://www.un.org/unispal/document/ceirpp-legal-study2023/

 

[Ethel2]

Silly. Israel has every right to exist; within her own borders, not on land which was never Israel's and is illegally occupied according to international law. Do you really have no idea what's been going on since 1967?

Glad we got that resolved.
I disagree with the Israeli settlements on the West Bank. That is disputed territory and until that dispute is resolved no one living in the West Bank should be displaced.

 

[snakestretcher]

Glad we got that resolved.
I disagree with the Israeli settlements on the West Bank. That is disputed territory and until that dispute is resolved no one living in the West Bank should be displaced.

The law is quite clear on the matter; Israel is illegally occupying land which is not Israel's to claim. The only dispute is from Israel, and the absurd religious imperative which the ultra-nationalists (supported by Netanyahu), claim was 'given' to them by a 'god'.
My link goes into considerable detail regarding the occupation. You should examine it.

https://www.un.org/unispal/document/ceirpp-legal-study2023/

 

[Ethel2]

The law is quite clear on the matter; Israel is illegally occupying land which is not Israel's to claim. The only dispute is from Israel, and the absurd religious imperative which the ultra-nationalists (supported by Netanyahu), claim was 'given' to them by a 'god'.
My link goes into considerable detail regarding the occupation. You should examine it.

https://www.un.org/unispal/document/ceirpp-legal-study2023/

Israel correctly claims that in the 1967 war they gained control of the West Bank. That happens in wars sometimes-borders are redrawn as the spoils go to the victors. Had the Arabs not declared war on Israel in an effort to annihilate it Israel would not be settling there. Not saying I agree with Israel’s claim to the West Bank-just that they believe they have a legitimate claim to it. And that makes it DISPUTED territory. IMO the West Bank should be land for an eventual Palestinian state but that needs to be settled through negotiations.
There will be no substantive negotiations until Netanyahu is voted out and Hamas is removed by force.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

You think the rules are set in stone. Get Canada to start working to taking over control of the UN instead of just whining about America. Just kidding. It’s almost a national pastime for a lot of Canadians to bitch about America while not actually willing to do much of anything on the world stage. I get that it’s a much easier and cheaper route to go.

No when you pay 1/3 of the bills and the other 192 countries pay the rest it’s not hard to see why we have a large amount of say. Let’s be honest. If the US pulled out of the UN it would be utterly pointless and would most likely collapse. If Canada pulled out I don’t anyone would notice.

Yes we have more say on votes that actually matter then anyone else because we pay more then anyone else. Not sure why this is a hard concept for you to grasp.

Yes I am sure you think Canada could pay the US’s share without changing how things are run in Canada. Unfortunately for you denying reality won’t change it.

I am so glad that you are a firm believer that everyone should have as many votes as their money can buy. After all, that was what the Founding Fathers thought too.

 

[ModernDiogenes]

There is a difference between "supporting the war effort" and "supporting genocide". At this point it appears that the Israeli government has slipped over the line.

The "honourable" thing to do here is to actually declare war on the other side. Of course Hamas won't do that because its leadership is well aware that they would be crushed in a matter of days if they did so. And, of course, the Israelis won't do that because the Israeli leadership is well aware that they would forfeit all "moral advantage" if they declared war on a people that they have kept under their economic thumb for decades.

I don’t know about that.

The Israeli gov’t has pretty much stated from the outset of this that this is war declared not against the Arabic civilians in Gaza but against Hamas and their object us to eradicate Hamas as the gov’t of Gaza.

If Hamas was to surrender, return the hostages, and declare itself out of the governing business this would be over.

 

[snakestretcher]

Israel correctly claims that in the 1967 war they gained control of the West Bank. That happens in wars sometimes-borders are redrawn as the spoils go to the victors. Had the Arabs not declared war on Israel in an effort to annihilate it Israel would not be settling there. Not saying I agree with Israel’s claim to the West Bank-just that they believe they have a legitimate claim to it. And that makes it DISPUTED territory. IMO the West Bank should be land for an eventual Palestinian state but that needs to be settled through negotiations.
There will be no substantive negotiations until Netanyahu is voted out and Hamas is removed by force.

Israel's occupation is as illegal as that of Russia's occupation of Crimea-which has been roundly condemned, but which Russia claims is historically a part of Russia. Israel's occupation and claims of historical ownership is no different in terms of illegality.

 

[snakestretcher]

I don’t know about that.

The Israeli gov’t has pretty much stated from the outset of this that this is war declared not against the Arabic civilians in Gaza but against Hamas and their object us to eradicate Hamas as the gov’t of Gaza.

If Hamas was to surrender, return the hostages, and declare itself out of the governing business this would be over.

No it would not be over. The Palestinians have as much right to self-determination and their own state as anyone else. Israel, under Netanyahu, has repeatedly stated that a two-state solution is unacceptable, and they will do everything in their power to prevent it; "between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty" (Likud Charter, 1977). Likud is the far-right party led by Netanyahu.

Original Party Platform of the Likud Party

Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org

 

[Ethel2]

Israel's occupation is as illegal as that of Russia's occupation of Crimea-which has been roundly condemned, but which Russia claims is historically a part of Russia. Israel's occupation and claims of historical ownership is no different in terms of illegality.

There’s a big difference in the two situations: Russia is occupying land that is within the borders of a sovereign nation (Ukraine).
There has never been a sovereign nation called Palestine. That land is occupied by a variety of squatters on land of the Ottoman Empire.

 

[TomFitz]

Glad we got that resolved.
I disagree with the Israeli settlements on the West Bank. That is disputed territory and until that dispute is resolved no one living in the West Bank should be displaced.

And yet, under the cover of the Gaza invasion. Israel has sieved more West Bank territory than ever before, and is openly encouraging Zionist vigilantes to attack Palistinians.

 

[snakestretcher]

There’s a big difference in the two situations: Russia is occupying land that is within the borders of a sovereign nation (Ukraine).
There has never been a sovereign nation called Palestine. That land is occupied by a variety of squatters on land of the Ottoman Empire.

Remind me, when did the Ottoman Empire cease to exist? Furthermore maps of the region, in this case prior to 1945, clearly show 'Palestine'. I have a Palestinian coin; inscibed in Arabic on one side, and Hebrew on the obverse. Strange that maps and currency were produced for a country which never existed. The current Jerusalem Post newspaper was previously the Palestine Post. Another anomaly?

 

[ModernDiogenes]

No it would not be over. The Palestinians have as much right to self-determination and their own state as anyone else. Israel, under Netanyahu, has repeatedly stated that a two-state solution is unacceptable, and they will do everything in their power to prevent it; "between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty" (Likud Charter, 1977). Likud is the far-right party led by Netanyahu.

Original Party Platform of the Likud Party

Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org

Not the point.

Cooler heads acting of good will is not the situation on EITHER side of this, so I’m not addressing what isn’t the case there. I’m addressing what is.

What is, is that Israel does own the land in question. Hamas governed because Israel allowed it. They crossed a line with the invasion into the kibbutz. That permission was rescinded. The Israeli gov;’t entered its territory to put down a revolt.

If the Arabic people of Gaza want self-determination what’s required of them is to reject Hamas. End the revolt. Actively petition the governing body who owns the territory they live in for peace. Then peace talks can begin.

 

[ModernDiogenes]

Remind me, when did the Ottoman Empire cease to exist? Furthermore maps of the region, in this case prior to 1945, clearly show 'Palestine'. I have a Palestinian coin; inscibed in Arabic on one side, and Hebrew on the obverse. Strange that maps and currency were produced for a country which never existed. The current Jerusalem Post newspaper was previously the Palestine Post. Another anomaly?
View attachment 67501463
View attachment 67501467

And much older maps don’t show a Palestinian. Older than that there was though. And there was no Israel, than there was, then there wasn’t again, and now there is.

There is currently no Palestine, therefore there are no Palestinians. Just like there were no Isrealis in the 20th Century prior to 1945.