Israel Isolated as UN Security Council Demands Immediate Ceasefire in Gaza

[snakestretcher]

Not the point.

Cooler heads acting of good will is not the situation on EITHER side of this, so I’m not addressing what isn’t the case there. I’m addressing what is.

What is, is that Israel does own the land in question. Hamas governed because Israel allowed it. They crossed a line with the invasion into the kibbutz. That permission was rescinded. The Israeli gov;’t entered its territory to put down a revolt.

If the Arabic people of Gaza want self-determination what’s required of them is to reject Hamas. End the revolt. Actively petition the governing body who owns the territory they live in for peace. Then peace talks can begin.

You're kidding! Every 'peace talk' Netanyahu has been involved in, he sabotaged-including Oslo, the one genuine prospect for peace in recent years. He even bragged about deliberately derailing the talks, on video. As long as Likud and Netanyahu's far-right cabal are in power, no peace negotiations will be considered.
Israel has her own borders given in 1948. All other occupations are illegal under international law-the same law, by the way, which Israel agreed to observe and abide by after being admitted to UN membership and becoming signatory to the UN Charter. This is not in dispute.

 

[snakestretcher]

And much older maps don’t show a Palestinian. Older than that there was though. And there was no Israel, than there was, then there wasn’t again, and now there is.

There is currently no Palestine, therefore there are no Palestinians. Just like there were no Isrealis in the 20th Century prior to 1945.

So the Palestinians have a right to self-determination and their own state, just like the Israelis. Yes? It will come; Palestine has already been awarded non-member state observer status at the UN, much to Israel's displeasure.

 

[gboisjo]

**** the Palestinians, just another bunch of worthless, violent, fanatical Muslims.

Rats, living in a shit hole of they're own making.

I'm crossing my fingers that Israel won't back down.

They need to go into Rafah and finish the job and kill every last vulgar Hamas rapist.

12,000 or 13,000 killed, 5,000 more and the job will be done.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

It’s a face saver for Moe Biden in this election year. Nothing more.

War is always over the top. I remember 9/11 and watching the whole Arab world celebrate.

• Afghanistan: Afghanistan leaders condemned the attacks,
• Azerbaijan: Azerbaijanis gathered in town squares to light candles, pray and offered good wishes.
• Bahrain: King Hamad bin Isa Al Khalifa condemned the 9/11 attacks.
• Bangladesh: People gathered in mosques in prayer, and clerics condemned the attacks
• Egypt: Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak called a cabinet meeting after the attacks. Mubarak said that "Egypt firmly and strongly condemns such attacks on civilians and soldiers that led to the deaths of a large number of innocent victims.
• Indonesia: President Megawati Sukarnoputri expressed public support for a global war on terrorism and promised to implement United Nations counter-terrorism resolutions
• Iran: Iranian president Mohammad Khatami and Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei condemned and denounced the attacks and the terrorists who carried them out. Iranians who gathered for a soccer match in Tehran two days after the 9/11 attacks observed a moment of silence. There was also a candlelight vigil. Huge crowds attended candlelit vigils in Iran, and 60,000 spectators observed a minute's silence at Tehran's soccer stadium.
• Iraq: at first justified the attacks. Later in October 2001, president Saddam Hussein personally replied to an email sent to him by an American citizen by offering his condolences and sympathy for the victims killed in the attacks.[92]
• Jordan: King Abdullah II condemned the 9/11 attacks. Many Jordanians signed letters of sympathy and condolences.
• Kazakhstan: The Kazakhstani government offered the use of its airspace for relief and offered its condolences. ...Yasser Arafat and nearly all the leaders of the Palestinian National Authority (PNA) condemned the attacks. They censored and attempted to discredit broadcasts and other Palestinian news reports justifying the attacks in America, with many newspapers, magazines, websites and wire services running photographs of Palestinian public celebrations. Arafat said of the attacks: "It's unbelievable. We completely condemn this very dangerous attack, and I convey my condolences to the American people, to the American president and to the American administration, not only in my name but on behalf of the Palestinians." He gave blood for victims of the attack in a Gaza hospital. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactions_to_the_September_11_attacks

Indeed, such a unanimous outpouring of support for the pathetic losers just has to be recognized - right?

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

Then Iraq and Afghanistan. It’s never ending and it will continue to be over the top. Let’s hope it stays in the ME. Let’s hope the chickens don’t come home to roost just yet.

Indeed, the attacks by the Iraqi and Afghan terrorists were almost constant (well, in your mind at any rate). Isn't it amazing how much of an echo you can get when you shout inside a closed mind?

 

[ModernDiogenes]

You're kidding! Every 'peace talk' Netanyahu has been involved in…

I’m all in favor of getting rid of Bibi.

 

[Lord of Planar]

They violated the law for over 50 years. Who is the illegal occupier? Israel.

Don't start with that bullshit. they were the victors of war. Israel was attacked. There was a war. They won all that land and gave some back.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

I won’t even try to understand your ridiculous and irrelevant attempt at an analogy.
Try harder.

I'm sorry. I made the rash assumption that you were rather literate.

 

[Irredentist]

Not the point.

Cooler heads acting of good will is not the situation on EITHER side of this, so I’m not addressing what isn’t the case there. I’m addressing what is.

What is, is that Israel does own the land in question. Hamas governed because Israel allowed it. They crossed a line with the invasion into the kibbutz. That permission was rescinded. The Israeli gov;’t entered its territory to put down a revolt.

If the Arabic people of Gaza want self-determination what’s required of them is to reject Hamas. End the revolt. Actively petition the governing body who owns the territory they live in for peace. Then peace talks can begin.

Since Israel has not formally annexed either Gaza or the West Bank, it cannot truthfully be said that they "own" that territory. Until such a time as Israel does formally incorporate said territory into the Israeli state, it is merely under Israeli occupation. Not ownership.

 

[snakestretcher]

Don't start with that bullshit. they were the victors of war. Israel was attacked. There was a war. They won all that land and gave some back.

Nonsense. The law is the law, and we have condemned and sanctioned Russia over her occupation of Crimea for the same violation of the law as Israel's illegal occupation. Why are we not occupying Germany after achieving victory over the Nazis, or Japan? Does the West own Japan? But Israel gets a free pass. Why?

 

[ModernDiogenes]

So the Palestinians have a right to self-determination and their own state, just like the Israelis. Yes? It will come; Palestine has already been awarded non-member state observer status at the UN, much to Israel's displeasure.

And I think, since coexistence under the same gov;t seems futile, there ought to be. However, for anything to happen toward that end the situation needs to be addressed under the circumstances as the exist TODAY.

That is that Gaza is a territory of Israel. That Hamas ruled locally with Israeli consent. That Hamas revolted. The consent was withdrawn. The legal Centralized gov’t of Israel sent troops to regain control of its territory.

If the citizens of the Israeli territory of Gaza surrender and reject Hamas the fighting can stop. Peace talks can start from there.

 

[Lord of Planar]

Remind me, when did the Ottoman Empire cease to exist? Furthermore maps of the region, in this case prior to 1945, clearly show 'Palestine'. I have a Palestinian coin; inscibed in Arabic on one side, and Hebrew on the obverse. Strange that maps and currency were produced for a country which never existed. The current Jerusalem Post newspaper was previously the Palestine Post. Another anomaly?

An even before that, it belonged to the Jewish people.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

I don’t know about that.

The Israeli gov’t has pretty much stated from the outset of this that this is war declared not against the Arabic civilians in Gaza but against Hamas and their object us to eradicate Hamas as the gov’t of Gaza.

If Hamas was to surrender, return the hostages, and declare itself out of the governing business this would be over.

Indeed.

Of course that is making the rather rash assumption that the Israeli government said "OK, we believe you. Now, here is all of your land that we have 'occupied' back because we are a peaceful and civilized country and would never involve ourselves in a war of territorial expansion."

Quite frankly NEITHER of those two things would happen.

 

[snakestretcher]

An even before that, it belonged to the Jewish people.

And Britain belonged to the Romans for 400 years, and was later ruled by (belonged to), the French from 1066. Your point?

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

There’s a big difference in the two situations: Russia is occupying land that is within the borders of a sovereign nation (Ukraine).
There has never been a sovereign nation called Palestine. That land is occupied by a variety of squatters on land of the Ottoman Empire.

I see, so are you opposed to the establishment of "Kurdistan" since there has never been such a sovereign state and those Kurds are "squatters on land of the Ottoman Empire"?

PS - It's a good thing that you weren't around in 1776 because you would have objected to the formation of the United States of America on the ground that there had never been such a sovereign state and the "colonists" were squatters on the land of the Iroquois and Algonquin nations?

 

[ModernDiogenes]

Since Israel has not formally annexed either Gaza or the West Bank, it cannot truthfully be said that they "own" that territory. Until such a time as Israel does formally incorporate said territory into the Israeli state, it is merely under Israeli occupation. Not ownership.

Nonsense.

There is what is. What is, is that Israel occupied both Gaza and the West Bank in1967 after The Six Days War. It acted as the owner of those territories since that time. In that it us the defacto territory of Israel.

Call it “common law” if you have to, but it is what exists.

 

[snakestretcher]

And I think, since coexistence under the same gov;t seems futile, there ought to be. However, for anything to happen toward that end the situation needs to be addressed under the circumstances as the exist TODAY.

That is that Gaza is a territory of Israel. That Hamas ruled locally with Israeli consent. That Hamas revolted. The consent was withdrawn. The legal Centralized gov’t of Israel sent troops to regain control of its territory.

If the citizens of the Israeli territory of Gaza surrender and reject Hamas the fighting can stop. Peace talks can start from there.

Gaza is not Israeli territory.

Israel claims it is no longer occupying the Gaza Strip. What does international law say?

The laws of occupation codify a basic principle of humanity: those with effective control over a population have obligations to protect it.

www.atlanticcouncil.org

 

[Irredentist]

Nonsense.

There is what is. What is, is that Israel occupied both Gaza and the West Bank in1967 after The Six Days War. It acted as the owner of those territories since that time. In that it us the defacto territory of Israel.

Call it “common law” if you have to, but it is what exists.

Occupying the territory isn't the same thing as owning it. To own the territory, Israel would have to formally annex it into their state borders. They have not done so. So I'm a little confused why you are pretending that Israel owns that land, when, according to the government of Israel itself, they do NOT own that land.

 

[ModernDiogenes]

Indeed.

Of course that is making the rather rash assumption that the Israeli government said "OK, we believe you. Now, here is all of your land that we have 'occupied' back because we are a peaceful and civilized country and would never involve ourselves in a war of territorial expansion."

Quite frankly NEITHER of those two things would happen.

Agreed, but it could be accomplished.

I believe it would take the form of the Arabic people of Gaza having new leaders arise. That they’d have obvious popular support of the people of Gaza. That they offer unconditional surrender and they rebuke and isolate Hamas, surrendering Hamas’ leadership whee they could for criminal prosecution of the invasion of the kibbutz.

It would certainly help of the prosecution of Bibi Netanyahu for his crimes could then continue and he went away.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

An even before that, it belonged to the Jewish people.

And before that it belonged to the Egyptian people.

And before that it belonged to the Canaanites.

 

[ModernDiogenes]

Gaza is not Israeli territory.

Israel claims it is no longer occupying the Gaza Strip. What does international law say?

The laws of occupation codify a basic principle of humanity: those with effective control over a population have obligations to protect it.

www.atlanticcouncil.org

A thing isn’t what it’s called. It is how it’s treated.

Now, you can condemn Israel gov’t for saying one thing and doing something else, and I’d say that would have to be entertained as an argument worthy of consideration. However, it doesn’t change what Gaza is currently.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

**** the Palestinians, just another bunch of worthless, violent, fanatical Muslims.

Rats, living in a shit hole of they're own making.

I'm crossing my fingers that Israel won't back down.

They need to go into Rafah and finish the job and kill every last vulgar Hamas rapist.

12,000 or 13,000 killed, 5,000 more and the job will be done.

Such enthusiastic support for genocide has seldom been seen this side of Nazi Germany.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

And I think, since coexistence under the same gov;t seems futile, there ought to be. However, for anything to happen toward that end the situation needs to be addressed under the circumstances as the exist TODAY.

That is that Gaza is a territory of Israel. That Hamas ruled locally with Israeli consent. That Hamas revolted. The consent was withdrawn. The legal Centralized gov’t of Israel sent troops to regain control of its territory.

If the citizens of the Israeli territory of Gaza surrender and reject Hamas the fighting can stop. Peace talks can start from there.

Indeed, if only the Jews and Muslims would sit down and negotiate like good Christians - right?

I presume that the negotiation would primarily be about the size of the trucks that the non-Jews would be trucked out of the country in and how much personal baggage they would be allowed to take with them.

 

[ModernDiogenes]

Occupying the territory isn't the same thing as owning it. To own the territory, Israel would have to formally annex it into their state borders. They have not done so. So I'm a little confused why you are pretending that Israel owns that land, when, according to the government of Israel itself, they do NOT own that land.

I’m not pretending anything.

If you own a house and start a war with me and in that war I take that house and I don’t give it back, and for decades thereafter I act as its owner and no one can change that so that, to this day , act as the owner of that house, you can argue it’s yours, I can argue squatters rights. What can’t be argued is I’m acting as the owner of that house, and while legalities might be discussed I am it’s defacto owner.

What is, is what is.

 

[Irredentist]

I’m not pretending anything.

If you own a house and start a war with me and in that war I take that house and I don’t give it back, and for decades thereafter I act as its owner and no one can change that so that, to this day , act as the owner of that house, you can argue it’s yours, I can argue squatters rights. What can’t be argued is I’m acting as the owner of that house, and while legalities might be discussed I am it’s defacto owner.

What is, is what is.

The problem with this analogy, is that Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip in 2005, and since 2007, Gaza has been defacto territory of Hamas. Since that time, Israel has never administrated the territory, nor have they asserted any right to do so. So you cannot truthfully claim that Israel are the de facto owners, as they have not exercised any ownership rights over that territory.