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What is Gender

Apples and toasters are not conscious beings. Your comparison is stupid.

Your gender means exactly what you want it to mean. Someone else's gender means exactly what they want it to mean.
. If gender means what you, then it’s meaningl s gibberish to others.
If someone claims they are trans female, that tells me literally nothing, becasue I don’t know what they mean by female, since it means whatever they want it to mean.
 
I am not talking g sbout the persons condition, or feelings. I am talking sbout certain concepts of gender.

Is gender a definite Thing? If so, what?

Or is it just a subjective vague shifting idea, a social construct?

Often times I have seen liberals suggest it’s a social construct.


If so, what does it mean to be trans social construct?

If I dont recognize any issues, then I dont see those things that need to be addressed.

As I wrote, I only see problems with sports and I hope those can be resolved. I dont have an answer tho.
 
Hmm... how about public restroom/shower access, jail/prison cohabitation, the military draft and military "fitnness" standards?

I'd classify military, fire dept, etc standards along with sports but they are already dealing with those things. Why would that change?

The others? I see few to no issues that arent fairly easy to overcome. Different construction maybe for showers. Jails etc? Administrative.

What did people say in the south when bathrooms were desegregated? When they had to share water fountains which apparently, some believed were polluted in some way? People become more educated over time.
 
All true but the problem is when we talk about transgender what is really being talked about is the sex of a person. We already had terms that cover the concept of breaking gender norms and such, as you describe them, like tomboy or metrosexual and such. However, that's not what we are talking about on this subject. I don't know why the term transsexual has be shelved but that's the term that should be used.

On this topic it's not a girl saying, "I don't like dresses but prefer blue jeans and play sports." It's a girl saying, "I don't feel right in my body." that being the body of a female. That's denoting sex.

OK...I'm going to break ranks and agree (somewhat) with what I think you're saying. While I generally support gender studies programs and gender studies, I do hear lots of shade thrown on the notion of "categorization" of human beings. I typically start to try to argue if I think it advisable; sometimes it's not. But at a very basic level, human reasoning works by categorization (technically, by establishing sets)--you cannot think about anything without first categorizing it. That includes human beings.

Now opponents here have a point. Human beings are so complicated that categorizing them can be dangerous. We may well think of a man as, say, heterosexual, even if he secretly fooled around with a random guy after getting really drunk one night, and occasionally has momentary flashes of homosexual fantasies, but is still really turned on by women. But by putting him in that category, we are failing to capture some truth about him, and if society constructs acceptable roles on the basis of the category, we may well be causing this man secret pain for no reason.

The above is a simple case, but is an example of the kind of thing in which genders studies people are interested, and is also an example of the foundation of the discipline. But that said, to think about such cases (and many much more complicated), they still have to be categorizing human beings. To get a tad more technical, we could extract from the above example what is called a conjunctive definite description that, for the most part, functions like a name (names like "homosexual," "heterosexual," "male," "female," etc.), and that conjunctive definite description names a category.
I am not even asking for an exhaustive defintion of gender, just an objective framework definition of some kind. I can’t make sense of a lot of what I hear.

I get that some define gender simply as a social construct, and if that is true, the idea of transgender seems to incoherent.
Rather than claiming you are trans female, why not just make up your idea of what a man is, and continue to be called a man?
 

So what is reality in terms of gender. Quickly, an intersex baby is born. It kind of has a penis, but not exactly. Is it a boy or a girl? Should be easy because reality right?
 
. If gender means what you, then it’s meaningl s gibberish to others.
If someone claims they are trans female, that tells me literally nothing, becasue I don’t know what they mean by female, since it means whatever they want it to mean.

It doesn't mean anything. Does having a penis define you?
 
That's really the only place I see it being an issue as well. Just sports. Do I believe that the person is actually the opposite sex they claim? No, but I also don't care if they do and will use w/e pronouns they want and w/e name they want. Oh...I would be against any law that compels people to use terms that are factually inaccurate, like we see happening in Canada, the U.K. and other places.

Those laws are absurd. I am against rudeness and inconsideration but you cant control people's thoughts or social exposure with laws. OTOH it's not even remotely possible to to always correctly assume someone's gender.
 
So what is reality in terms of gender. Quickly, an intersex baby is born. It kind of has a penis, but not exactly. Is it a boy or a girl? Should be easy because reality right?

Shame on you for throwing hermaphrodites under the bus. Crossdressers are not hermaphrodites. If you were born with hermaphrodism then you can pick what gender you want or both because that is what you are.
 
I grew up in the 1960s, so I thought gender was just a fiction made up by our society. But as time went on, almost every single woman I ever knew fit the female stereotype pretty well. And almost every single man. Gay men or women are kind of in separate categories. A gay man is different from a straight woman, and a gay woman is different from a straight man.

I have seldom known any women who did not have typical female careers, or else neutral, and vice versa for men.

I believe that hormones and genetics strongly influence what stereotypes we will resonate with.

Where did you grow up? Funny, I grew up in the 60s too, in Northern NJ, and pretty much disagree with you. I saw those stereotypes being recognized as such and people being enabled to act and love and work and recreate as "they chose." It was a decade, as well as the 70s, of re-examining those stereotypes. That's not to say that they have disappeared even today tho.
 
All true but the problem is when we talk about transgender what is really being talked about is the sex of a person. We already had terms that cover the concept of breaking gender norms and such, as you describe them, like tomboy or metrosexual and such. However, that's not what we are talking about on this subject. I don't know why the term transsexual has be shelved but that's the term that should be used.

On this topic it's not a girl saying, "I don't like dresses but prefer blue jeans and play sports." It's a girl saying, "I don't feel right in my body." that being the body of a female. That's denoting sex.

It doesn't mean anything. Does having a penis define you?



Which mans all this fuss about trans is meaningless.
 
Shame on you for throwing hermaphrodites under the bus. Crossdressers are not hermaphrodites. If you were born with hermaphrodism then you can pick what gender you want or both because that is what you are.

So they get special right to choose, but the rest of us have to be whatever was determined at birth?
 
So they get special right to choose, but the rest of us have to be whatever was determined at birth?

Handicap people get special privledges including handicap parking spots and welfare. Some people who are born get special privileges to make up for this.
 
So what is reality in terms of gender. Quickly, an intersex baby is born. It kind of has a penis, but not exactly. Is it a boy or a girl? Should be easy because reality right?

Are you talking about sex now, or the social construct that is how gender has been redefined as?
 
What is truth? Should I only take truth to be what Trump says it is like you do?

There is only truth. There is no "my truth".
 
I am not even asking for an exhaustive defintion of gender, just an objective framework definition of some kind.

Well...what do you mean by "objective"? I get the sense that maybe this is where part of the issue may be--not sure.

I get that some define gender simply as a social construct, and if that is true, the idea of transgender seems to incoherent. Rather than claiming you are trans female, why not just make up your idea of what a man is, and continue to be called a man?

Consider an analogy with language. Words have the range of meanings they do as, more or less, social constructs. There's nothing that connects the sound made when we pronounce "tree," or the composite of squiggles that readers of English recognize as a token of the same word. People who speak English have just somehow assigned the word a meaning--it's socially constructed. But that doesn't mean any of us can up and change the meanings of words. I mean, sure, I can say to myself that the word "flower" will mean some esoteric mereological sum composed of my left nostril, the Battle of Hastings, and the Pythagorean Theorem. And I can use the term "flower" in that way, but no one will understand what the heck I'm talking about, and my usage is very unlikely to catch on. The meaning of the word "flower" won't change just because I've decided to use it differently--if I explain my use of the term, others will argue that such is not the correct meaning of the word "flower." The meaning of the word, though socially constructed, is still real.

The same is probably true if I decided to try to make a much less radical change to the meaning of "flower." I couldn't start calling pizzas flowers and expect any different response.

Similarly, the category "transgender" is indeed socially constructed, as far as I can tell. But that doesn't imply that it lacks reality--that a person can just redefine it arbitrarily.
 
There is only truth. There is no "my truth".

3 different people often see one event 3 different ways. Your truth is the only version you have, but it's incumbent upon me to accept yours.
 
Are you talking about sex now, or the social construct that is how gender has been redefined as?

Is it biological or a social construct? You need to make up your mind. Why does someone have to live within the social construct of being Male just because of biology?
 
What is gender?


The meanings of words can (and often) change over time.

The term Gender simply used to mean male or female, masculine or feminine (in nature).

Then it became a term to reference "social and cultural differences in induviduals, rather than biological ones."

Gender continued to morph into a term which today describes a state of mind.

"Gender fluid" means a person might feel like a male on Tuesday, but may swing female by Friday.

yeah, it's complicated.
 
I think the point of the OP is that if such labels (definitions?) did not matter then why seek to change them?
If they don't matter, why not?

If the criteria for determining gender is subjective (ie. Decided by each individual as they see fit), then what is wrong or logically inconsistent if individuals decide their own gender according to whatever criteria they believe is appropriate?
 
Should we allow adding age and income to those self-defined traits? So long as laws are applied differently based on a trait then their need to be established standards which can be used by others (all?) to determine them. I think you may be confusing what I (or any person is) am with who I am (or any person is).
If age and income are subjective, then there's nothing wrong with allowing them to be self defined

I look forward to reading your well thought out arguments about how age and income are subjective :wink:
 
If they don't matter, why not?

If the criteria for determining gender is subjective (ie. Decided by each individual as they see fit), then what is wrong or logically inconsistent if individuals decide their own gender according to whatever criteria they believe is appropriate?

If gender did not matter (and was declared separate and distinct from one's sex) then there could be one gender or a gender for each person.
 
If age and income are subjective, then there's nothing wrong with allowing them to be self defined

I look forward to reading your well thought out arguments about how age and income are subjective :wink:

The same way one's gender is no longer determined by one's biological sex - they become matters of self-definition.
 
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