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US threatens to withdraw troops from Germany

Godric1970 said:
and so did America with arms sales to West Germany
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US arms sales to Germany have been virtually nil for the past two decades.

Germany is now the world's fourth largest exporter of weapons after the US, Russia, and France.
 
Outlook said:
Thank you for proving me right.

Talk about murderous dictators. You forgot to mention the cozy relationship between Obama and Castro, Rouhani and Maduro.
Top democrats such as Sanders, AOC, Gabbard and Omar support Maduro and denounce Trump’s support of the opposition to Maduro.
Are you sure you are a liberal or simply a hypocrite?

Do you support Trump in his opposition to Maduro or do you stand with fellow democrats?
I know I’m putting you on the spot. You don’t have to answer. Anyway I don’t expect an honest answer only a deflect.
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Those are all lies not worthy of comment.. Do you support Trump's silence about Putin's military intrusion is this hemisphere? Never mind, I know you do. You love Putin too, you have to.
 
iguanaman said:
Those are all lies not worthy of comment.. Do you support Trump's silence about Putin's military intrusion is this hemisphere? Never mind, I know you do. You love Putin too, you have to.
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Odd. Outlook told me that he was not partisan and even voted for Democrats. You'd never know it by reading his posts so far at DP.
 
There is no logic to moving what we have in Germany to Poland. That we think Germany needs to contribute more money is an issue raised before during Obama to which Germany agreed to a gradual increase in contribution and has met the schedule. Anything we remove from Europe is to Putin’s liking. Trump’s style is to disrupt whatever exists, period. And his lackeys know so and follow so. Trump lifts his leg like a dog on whatever he can. Especially to do with allies. And embraces those committed to our demise. That’s the truth.
 
iguanaman said:
Those are all lies not worthy of comment.. Do you support Trump's silence about Putin's military intrusion is this hemisphere? Never mind, I know you do. You love Putin too, you have to.
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I knew you wouldn’t answer the question.
I knew you would deny the truth.
 
Rogue Valley said:
Odd. Outlook told me that he was not partisan and even voted for Democrats. You'd never know it by reading his posts so far at DP.
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He's got the orange disease and there is no cure
 
bluesmoke said:
There is no logic to moving what we have in Germany to Poland. That we think Germany needs to contribute more money is an issue raised before during Obama to which Germany agreed to a gradual increase in contribution and has met the schedule. Anything we remove from Europe is to Putin’s liking. Trump’s style is to disrupt whatever exists, period. And his lackeys know so and follow so. Trump lifts his leg like a dog on whatever he can. Especially to do with allies. And embraces those committed to our demise. That’s the truth.
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The logic is clear from Putin's point of view. Divide and conquer. Trump's foreign policy and Putin's wish list are identical.

Putin’s Goal: Weaken and divide the transatlantic alliance.
Putin’s Payout:Trump undermines US relationships with European allies and calls the US’s commitment to NATO into question.
Putin’s Goal: Degrade the European Union and foster pro-Russian political movements.
Putin’s Payout:Trump attacks the EU and actively supports anti-EU, Kremlin-backed parties.
Putin’s Goal: Disrupt American leadership and dominance of the global economic order.
Putin’s Payout: Trump is eagerly pushing for an all-out trade war with Europe
Putin’s Goal: Build global resentment and distrust towards the US and stoke anti-American sentiment.
Putin’s Payout: America’s closest allies are explicitly suspicious and distrusting of the US because of Trump’s rhetoric and actions.
Putin’s Goal: Relieve economic and domestic political pressure from US sanctions on Russia.
Putin’s Payout: Trump tries to roll back, impede, and blunt the impact of sanctions at every step.
Putin’s Goal: Legitimize his regime in the eyes of the world.
Putin’s Payout: Trump repeatedly praises and defends Putin, lending the credibility of the US presidency to Putin’s standing.
Putin’s Goal: Revive Russia’s status as a great power and gain international recognition for its illegal seizure of Crimea.
Putin’s Payout:Trump publicly says that Crimea is part of Russia and calls for Russia to be welcomed back into the international community with no concessions.
Putin’s Goal: Continue to sow discord in Western democracies and avoid repercussions for interfering in American and European elections.
Putin’s Payout: Trump dismisses Russian interference and has done nothing to prevent future interference, putting him at odds with his own intelligence community.
Putin’s Goal: Soften America’s adversarial stance toward Russia.
Putin’s Payout: Trump is shifting the Republican Party’s generations-long hawkish views on Russia.
Putin’s Goal: Destabilize the US from within.
Putin’s Payout: Trump attacks US institutions while driving divisive politics and eroding democratic norms.
Putin’s goal: Advance the Kremlin’s narrative to shape global perceptions.
Putin’s payout: Trump has repeatedly, and inexplicably, parroted Kremlin talking points across a range of global issues.
Putin’s goal: Undermine international norms and democratic values abroad.
Putin’s payout: Trump has repeatedly failed to respond to human rights violations or support democracy abroad, creating a more permissive environment for autocrats to crack down.
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Putin’s Payout: 12 Ways Trump has Supported Putin’s Foreign Policy Agenda - The Moscow Project
 
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Funny how this thread went from US pulling out of Germany to Democrat vs Republican version of history...
 
PeteEU said:
It's a stupid threat of a childish administration.

1) There are about 35k US troops in Germany. Of them quite a large part are support staff for US operations in the middle east and Africa. These troops won't be removed because of thier life saving jobs.

2) 35k troops even if they were all combat troops would not do much to stop a Russian attack.

3) A Russian attack would have to go through Ukraine and Poland before ever hitting Germany so it could hardly be a surprise attack.

4) A Russian attack on Western Europe would be dumber than Napoleons and Hitlers attack on Russia.. At least those two had the material and manpower superiority...the Russians don't and know it.

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Oh yeah, I'm sure Ukraine will really stand up to Russia. It's not like there was a Russian invasion where they folded like a Cheap suit.

The Russian campaign to take Ukraine would last a week if Ukraine receives no help from the outside. maximum.

Poland would be a much stiffer fight, but without France, USA, and the UK involved they couldn't hold out forever. And Germany is not even a consideration, they are such Betas, they didn't want combat roles in Afghanistan, their military is underfunded, most of their air force isn't even combat ready.

Of all the NATO countries, only UK, France, Poland, and Norway have competent militaries, and they're not going to be able to take on Russia alone, assuming there was a full on declared general war.
 
EMNofSeattle said:
Oh yeah, I'm sure Ukraine will really stand up to Russia. It's not like there was a Russian invasion where they folded like a Cheap suit.

The Russian campaign to take Ukraine would last a week if Ukraine receives no help from the outside. maximum.

Poland would be a much stiffer fight, but without France, USA, and the UK involved they couldn't hold out forever. And Germany is not even a consideration, they are such Betas, they didn't want combat roles in Afghanistan, their military is underfunded, most of their air force isn't even combat ready.

Of all the NATO countries, only UK, France, Poland, and Norway have competent militaries, and they're not going to be able to take on Russia alone, assuming there was a full on declared general war.
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The reason for NATO is that no country would have to stand alone. Russia would never invade Poland because it's a NATO member. Western Europe, Canada and the USA would be bound to support Poland.
Remember Afghanistan? NATO responded because a member nation, the USA, had been attacked.
 
EMNofSeattle said:
The Russian campaign to take Ukraine would last a week if Ukraine receives no help from the outside. maximum.
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Taking Ukraine would be much more bloody for Moscow today than it was five years ago (16,000 trained soldiers).

In 2019 she has 185,000 well armed active duty, plus 500,000 NATO trained reservists. It would require a bare minimum of 200,000 Russian troops to occupy just 50% of Ukraine.

The Kremlin would face an occupation requiring a massive military commitment, partisan warfare on a large scale, strangulating global sanctions, and massive anti-war protests at home.
 
Grand Mal said:
The reason for NATO is that no country would have to stand alone. Russia would never invade Poland because it's a NATO member. Western Europe, Canada and the USA would be bound to support Poland.
Remember Afghanistan? NATO responded because a member nation, the USA, had been attacked.
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I agree, however I interpreted the thread context to make a scenario where because of politics NATO breaks down because of squabbles involving the US and Germany
 
Godric1970 said:
no doubt the English will continue to genuflect at the US alter along with Poland

when we leave the UK the dotard trump and america will receive two fingers from Scotland, already posted on that yank ambassador to poland's twitter feed and told her what i thought about her and america

why doesn't the US get all of it's occupation forces out of Western Europe we don't or need want you

US threatens to withdraw troops from Germany | News | DW | 09.08.2019
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The rift over the persian gulf is a joke at best, europe rejected the idea except britain, and germany even if it wanted to has almost no functional navy. Now germany has a decent sized navy and airforce and landforce however germany has left it in such disrepair most of it's military equipment is unusable in conflict. Germany also refuses to contribute at the level other nations do, greece who is bankrupt meets nato requirements, bulgaria the poorest nation in nato and europe goes as close as they can afford to meeting requirements, while germany has a grounded fleet of aircraft due to lack of maintenance as well as failed sensors which are not made anymore, however this shows how little germany puts for defense, because any other nation would hire engineers to build replacements for the no longger available parts and keep their other equipment running while germany let's it fall apart so it can spend more on social programs.
 
For me personally, they can do as they wish.
US defendet us for a long time, so we shouldn´t deny them their bases. But if they leave, I have no fear for an Invasion.

Most US people who are always mad about german military contribution are in other threads always talking about freedom. Especially the freedom to bear armes.

Leave us our freedom to put our money in making our people pleased citizens of a peaceful country rather than buying arms made for killing people.

If we get invaded than, you have the freedom to say "I knew how it would end"
 
german hick said:
For me personally, they can do as they wish.
US defendet us for a long time, so we shouldn´t deny them their bases. But if they leave, I have no fear for an Invasion.

Most US people who are always mad about german military contribution are in other threads always talking about freedom. Especially the freedom to bear armes.

Leave us our freedom to put our money in making our people pleased citizens of a peaceful country rather than buying arms made for killing people.

If we get invaded than, you have the freedom to say "I knew how it would end"
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It is a bit funny because Germany spends as much on the military as the UK does... But of course the French spend more than both the UK and Germany and who does the US moan about? Germany and France but not a peep about the UK.. Go figure.

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PeteEU said:
It is a bit funny because Germany spends as much on the military as the UK does... But of course the French spend more than both the UK and Germany and who does the US moan about? Germany and France but not a peep about the UK.. Go figure.

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and you've already explained the "significance" of the 35 k US troops in Germany as early as post #10.

But then nobody does much reading anymore.
 
Chagos said:
Trump is obsessed with Germany.

Italy and Belgium spend even less of their GDP on defense than Germany. .
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It certainly seems that way, and the fact that Belgium borders Germany kinda seems like a move to goad Merkel.
 
german hick said:
For me personally, they can do as they wish.
US defendet us for a long time, so we shouldn´t deny them their bases. But if they leave, I have no fear for an Invasion.

Most US people who are always mad about german military contribution are in other threads always talking about freedom. Especially the freedom to bear armes.

Leave us our freedom to put our money in making our people pleased citizens of a peaceful country rather than buying arms made for killing people.

If we get invaded than, you have the freedom to say "I knew how it would end"
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I don't think anyone in America cares about how much money Germany spends on defense. Trump is using Germany as an example and he probably wants to get revenge for some perceived slight by Merkle.


Most Americans would have us leave NATO, though, s it's a relic of the Cold War that ended in 1989.

Let Europe police the Middle East and Russia. Or not, if they don't want to.

We'll deal with Asia.
 
swing_voter said:
I don't think anyone in America cares about how much money Germany spends on defense. Trump is using Germany as an example and he probably wants to get revenge for some perceived slight by Merkle.


Most Americans would have us leave NATO, though, s it's a relic of the Cold War that ended in 1989.

Let Europe police the Middle East and Russia. Or not, if they don't want to.

We'll deal with Asia.
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Apart from Donald Trump, I know of no American who wants the USA to leave NATO. Considering all the blood and lives lost by GIs fighting to liberate Europe in living memory, keeping bases here with significant contributions in land, money, armaments and personnel by NATO members, is of considerable value to the USA, very much a bargain. Added to this, European countries have lost the lives of their soldiers in wars far from Europe which were American entanglements such as Iraq and Afghanistan. This only happened because they were NATO members. To cast aside such a group of proven allies would be foolish. If you let Donald Trump do this I believe most Americans would be appalled.
 
Rostocker said:
Merkel doesnt care. Thats Trumps problem, as usual she ignores him.
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I think Merkel will care, along with the local MPs where the troops are based.

From a financial point of view I would imagine 12,000 troops, plus their families, etc are contributing quite a considerable amount of money to the local economies in so many ways.

Once the troops withdraw, businesses will be hit in the pocket with a revenue they have become dependent on, which in turn will have a domino effect.
 
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