DACA Kids?

[PIPEWRENCH]

Al long as there are open jobs they will keep coming and no wall can stop them.

That is not true. As I drove around Houston doing service work they were standing on the corners with signs. They were willing to work for less than minimum wage, for cash and no taxes. So if I needed a laborer I could go to the labor pool and get a citizen legally where insurance and taxes are paid for say $12.00 hour. Or I could get an illegal for $30.00 a day or less depending how many days they have stood there without work. This is clearly undercutting the legitimate American worker and criminal violation of our laws.

So I decide to the do the right thing and bid the job using a legal worker from the labor pool. I lose the job to another contractor who under bids me and the next day there are the illegals working on the job site.

That is not filling an open job taking a job away from American citizens. So save the lies for those who haven't seen it first hand for the last 35 years.

 

[PIPEWRENCH]

It is a tough issue. I am all for amnesty for the kids, from the sins of their parents. However, I contend that talk and action of legitimizing them is counter-productive unless we put a stop to illegal immigration as well.

You are exactly right.

DACA should not be attached to our budget. It should be attached to a bill that solves our illegal immigration problem eliminating any need for DACA in the future. A bill that secures our border, puts the boots on the street to round up the parents as well as the future parents of these children and bring them to justice. A bill that stops employers from exploiting illegal and using them to force down labor rates and take American jobs away from our citizens.

 

[Lord of Planar]

Al long as there are open jobs they will keep coming and no wall can stop them. These are families that worked hard to better themselves. Isn't that American enough for you?

Responding to what I think is what you meant:

As long as there are open jobs they will keep coming and no wall can stop them.

This to me is the key. We need to make it harder to work illegally. People will self-deport if they can't make a living here.

That is not true. As I drove around Houston doing service work they were standing on the corners with signs. They were willing to work for less than minimum wage, for cash and no taxes. So if I needed a laborer I could go to the labor pool and get a citizen legally where insurance and taxes are paid for say $12.00 hour. Or I could get an illegal for $30.00 a day or less depending how many days they have stood there without work. This is clearly undercutting the legitimate American worker and criminal violation of our laws.

Here in Portlandia, a few years back, the city set up a location and helped them.

So I decide to the do the right thing and bid the job using a legal worker from the labor pool. I lose the job to another contractor who under bids me and the next day there are the illegals working on the job site.

It's a hard problem to deal with. How can an honest man compete when the others are breaking the law?

These are families that worked hard to better themselves. Isn't that American enough for you?

I get that, and appreciate and sympathize with their hardship. Most of them make great neighbors and friends. We simply need to help our own people before the people of another country, especially the ones that disregard our immigration laws.

 

[PIPEWRENCH]

These are families that worked hard to better themselves. Isn't that American enough for you?

Breaking our laws is not the path to the American Dream and rewarding people for breaking our laws is beyond stupid.

 

[jaeger19]

The rules require that those qualified entered before June 2007. So the youngest possible person eligible would be about 12, and eligible people cannot apply before age 15. And there is no rush for a 15 year old to apply because the big draw to the program is they qualify recipients for work permits, and 15 year olds must be in school full time (it's a requirement of the program), so less need for work permits than adults who have graduated from HS or college.

In other words, the structure of the program and eligibility rules, which apparently were unknown to you (no surprise there) explain the ages you see and the small % under age 16. And the typical "dreamer" I've seen in the news is a young person, but not a child - a young adult, frequently kids in school, so your "typically refer to them as kids" is from what I've seen a false stereotype of how they're portrayed.

So I suspect your biggest problem is your ignorance of the program, not dishonesty by politicians or the "media."

Just to point out.. a lot of that ignorance is BECAUSE of the dishonesty or ignorance of the politicians. Trump has told some real whoppers when it comes to "chain migration" for example.

 

[jaeger19]

That is not true. As I drove around Houston doing service work they were standing on the corners with signs. They were willing to work for less than minimum wage, for cash and no taxes. So if I needed a laborer I could go to the labor pool and get a citizen legally where insurance and taxes are paid for say $12.00 hour. Or I could get an illegal for $30.00 a day or less depending how many days they have stood there without work. This is clearly undercutting the legitimate American worker and criminal violation of our laws.

So I decide to the do the right thing and bid the job using a legal worker from the labor pool. I lose the job to another contractor who under bids me and the next day there are the illegals working on the job site.

That is not filling an open job taking a job away from American citizens. So save the lies for those who haven't seen it first hand for the last 35 years.

ummmm I am not sure that you realize this.. but you example proves Iguanaman's point.

there was an open job.... you bid that open job..

That open job was filled by illegal immigrants.

That's exactly why they are here.

End their ability to get that job.. i.e. enforce the law on the employers... and you remove the incentive for them to be here.

the wall will do nothing to keep them out... especially since most come here LEGALLY for a job.. and simply overstay their visa... because they can still find work without a valid visa.

 

[iliveonramen]

Key facts about ?Dreamers? enrolled in DACA | Pew Research Center

I was going to post this under Bias, but figured I would just post here.

Most of the DACA recipients are adults (70% over the age of 21, less than 1% under 16), when you hear about DACA recipients Democrats and the MSM typically refer to them as kids in order to drive up sympathy from the average citizen. I'm so sick of the level of dishonesty from our politicians when trying to push legislation. (Both Republicans and Democrats)

I don't think the age matters...I think what matter is they never knowingly broke the law and sending them to whatever country their parents are from would be very cruel.

 

[iguanaman]

Breaking our laws is not the path to the American Dream and rewarding people for breaking our laws is beyond stupid.

Yet it is the path that many employers take and they are not deported and are indeed rewarded. Deal with that before you demonize those that only wish to feed and house their families. You are punishing the wrong party.

 

[PIPEWRENCH]

ummmm I am not sure that you realize this.. but you example proves Iguanaman's point.

there was an open job.... you bid that open job..

That open job was filled by illegal immigrants.

That's exactly why they are here.

End their ability to get that job.. i.e. enforce the law on the employers... and you remove the incentive for them to be here.

the wall will do nothing to keep them out... especially since most come here LEGALLY for a job.. and simply overstay their visa... because they can still find work without a valid visa.

Wrong.

If the contactor that used the illegal aliens had to pay minimum wage, provide insurance incase someone got hurt, and withhold taxes, most likely he could not under bid me and take work away from American citizens. The other option I have is to exploit the illegal aliens and be a criminal as well. That seems to be the goal of the supporters of illegal aliens. Force everyone into poverty and breaking the law.

 

[jaeger19]

Wrong.

If the contactor that used the illegal aliens had to pay minimum wage, provide insurance incase someone got hurt, and withhold taxes, most likely he could not under bid me and take work away from American citizens. The other option I have is to exploit the illegal aliens and be a criminal as well. That seems to be the goal of the supporters of illegal aliens. Force everyone into poverty and breaking the law.

Ummm exactly the point here.. If the job had been not open to a contractor that could hire illegals... then the contractor would not have hired illegals.

As long as jobs are available and open to illegal immigrants... no wall is going to stop them.

Your example pretty much supports that point.

 

[PIPEWRENCH]

Ummm exactly the point here.. If the job had been not open to a contractor that could hire illegals... then the contractor would not have hired illegals.

As long as jobs are available and open to illegal immigrants... no wall is going to stop them.

Your example pretty much supports that point.

They are working illegally. They are violating so many laws it is hard to list them all. Is this what you want me to support. I have no problem not paying my share of taxes. You can pay my share for me as well as theirs. I won't worry about being licensed and trained. It won't be my house on fire in the middle of the night because I don't know how to properly run your gas lines. This is what makes America great?

The contractors use them even though it is against the law and because the city of Houston cannot enforce the law. I have had long talks with the top people in the police force. They know where these illegals are and it would not be any problem rounding them up. The problem is only the federal government can deport them. All that happens is the local and state jails get filled to capacity and the federal government orders them to be released onto the streets or face fines. The other problem with cracking down hard on the people hiring them is if the illegals do not work and make some kind of money they will turn to crime to get money for food. Then we have even a bigger problem. The Federal government is completely negligent in doing their job is the reason we need DACA now. In the mean time legitimate contractors are forced to either break the law and exploit illegals or go out of business unable to compete legitimately.

 

[Glen Contrarian]

Really?

I have new neighbors (a couple) from Russia. The woman's father came here 18 years ago, and their entry would have fallen under the Obama administration.

I think your facts are wrong, about Obama stopping chain immigration.

We need an immigration systems like other countries, where you cannot immigrate unless you can provide for yourself, or have a sponsor.

Um, hate to tell you this, but with "chain immigration", one cannot immigrate unless one can provide for oneself...and in any case one MUST have a sponsor that takes legal responsibility for the financial well-being of the immigrant(s) concerned for ten years. It's called an "affidavit of support", and I've filled out several. If they become indigent for any reason, I'm the one who's legally financially responsible for them.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

It is a tough issue. I am all for amnesty for the kids, from the sins of their parents. However, I contend that talk and action of legitimizing them is counter-productive unless we put a stop to illegal immigration as well.

The estimated number of Mexicans in the United States illegally rose steadily for many years, from 2.9 million in 1995 to a peak of 6.9 million in 2007. But the number began dropping in 2008 and has fallen more since, reaching 5.8 million in 2014, the latest year for which Pew analyzed data.

Yes, we are experiencing a net outflow of illegal, undocumented workers from America back to Mexico | PolitiFact Wisconsin

There are other studies on the net which point to continuation of that trend to present day, not hard to find.

So that means the majority coming across illegally in the past eight years or so have been from Central American countries which were affected a generation ago by the Reagan era CIA-cocaine narco-trafficking and Contra operations, which are irrevocably linked, as you might know.

So that means that much of what we are seeing lately reeks of a refugee situation, people fleeing violent war torn gang infested countries, and the gang issue is indeed something we exported to them by making a generation of mercenaries and trained death squad killers.
That's a foreign policy failure, a Reagan era foreign policy failure, which we are reaping the fruits of now.
And we're answering with some stupid wall and deporting people who came here decades ago, some even with permanent green cards?

 

[Exactice]

Ummm exactly the point here.. If the job had been not open to a contractor that could hire illegals... then the contractor would not have hired illegals.

As long as jobs are available and open to illegal immigrants... no wall is going to stop them.

Your example pretty much supports that point.

Its kind of funny that we have come full circle.

With that, actually MANY legitimate contracts to include government contracts NOW have BOILER PLATE contracts that require, Hired General contractors to have licensed, bonded and insured sub contractors to be doing "Bid" contract work.

In other words this is one way of keeping the work honest and the inability not to use illegal workers. The employee or subcontractor must show proof of Liability, Workers Comp and a designated license along with being Bonded through a Performance bond on the value of the JOB, THERE IS NO WAY A Legit contractor on a bid can "legally" comply with a bunch of Illegal immigrants pounding nails or painting house for Contract bids.


This is contract specific, sure there are still jobs that are done under the table cash...... same with agricultural work and so forth... but the government funded jobs that required bids are LIKELY in compliance of union or licensed NON union workers.


So to say Illegals are only coming here to work. Is a far fetched opinion... I am still waiting on some "facts" like you stated that 95-97% illegals are coming here for work in our other thread.

 

[jaeger19]

They are working illegally. .

that's right because there is a job available for them to work.. which is the point.

Is this what you want me to support

Nope.. who said that?

The contractors use them even though it is against the law and because the city of Houston cannot enforce the law.

The problem is that no one is enforcing the law on the contractors. Dry up the jobs available to illegals.. .stop the reason for illegal immigration.

cracking down hard on the people hiring them is if the illegals do not work and make some kind of money they will turn to crime to get money for food

Nope.. generally they will go back to their country of origin.. just like they do when the economy in America slides and work for them begins to dry up.

More Mexican immigrants have returned to Mexico from the U.S. than have migrated here since the end of the Great Recession, according to a new Pew Research Center analysis of newly available government data from both countries. The same data sources also show the overall flow of Mexican immigrants between the two countries is at its smallest since the 1990s, mostly due to a drop in the number of Mexican immigrants coming to the U.S.

From 2009 to 2014, 1 million Mexicans and their families (including U.S.-born children) left the U.S. for Mexico, according to data from the 2014 Mexican National Survey of Demographic Dynamics (ENADID). U.S. census data for the same period show an estimated 870,000 Mexican nationals left Mexico to come to the U.S., a smaller number than the flow of families from the U.S. to Mexico
The decline in the flow of Mexican immigrants to the U.S. is due to several reasons (Passel et al, 2012). The slow recovery of the U.S. economy after the Great Recession may have made the U.S. less attractive to potential Mexican migrants and may have pushed out some Mexican immigrants as the U.S. job market deteriorated

 

[Lord of Planar]

Um, hate to tell you this, but with "chain immigration", one cannot immigrate unless one can provide for oneself...and in any case one MUST have a sponsor that takes legal responsibility for the financial well-being of the immigrant(s) concerned for ten years. It's called an "affidavit of support", and I've filled out several. If they become indigent for any reason, I'm the one who's legally financially responsible for them.

And that's how it should be.

 

[Lord of Planar]

Yes, we are experiencing a net outflow of illegal, undocumented workers from America back to Mexico | PolitiFact Wisconsin

There are other studies on the net which point to continuation of that trend to present day, not hard to find.

So that means the majority coming across illegally in the past eight years or so have been from Central American countries which were affected a generation ago by the Reagan era CIA-cocaine narco-trafficking and Contra operations, which are irrevocably linked, as you might know.

So that means that much of what we are seeing lately reeks of a refugee situation, people fleeing violent war torn gang infested countries, and the gang issue is indeed something we exported to them by making a generation of mercenaries and trained death squad killers.
That's a foreign policy failure, a Reagan era foreign policy failure, which we are reaping the fruits of now.
And we're answering with some stupid wall and deporting people who came here decades ago, some even with permanent green cards?

OK... Let me get this straight.

The article tries to claim that a reduction of illegal immigrants means more are going back, than coming in? I didn't see that contention supported.

The way I see it, a reduction only means their numbers are growing slower. It does not mean their numbers are declining.

 

[jaeger19]

Its kind of funny that we have come full circle.

With that, actually MANY legitimate contracts to include government contracts NOW have BOILER PLATE contracts that require, Hired General contractors to have licensed, bonded and insured sub contractors to be doing "Bid" contract work.

In other words this is one way of keeping the work honest and the inability not to use illegal workers. The employee or subcontractor must show proof of Liability, Workers Comp and a designated license along with being Bonded through a Performance bond on the value of the JOB, THERE IS NO WAY A Legit contractor on a bid can "legally" comply with a bunch of Illegal immigrants pounding nails or painting house for Contract bids.


This is contract specific, sure there are still jobs that are done under the table cash...... same with agricultural work and so forth... but the government funded jobs that required bids are LIKELY in compliance of union or licensed NON union workers.


So to say Illegals are only coming here to work. Is a far fetched opinion... I am still waiting on some "facts" like you stated that 95-97% illegals are coming here for work in our other thread.

Listen.. I am tired of presenting you evidence.

You realize how much I have provided you right? Where I showed time and time again where you are wrong.'

So how about you back up your opinion that the vast majority are here for something other than work/. I already showed research that stated that nearly 90% (87%) of illegal men were working.

now you show me the evidence that backs up that only a small percentage of illegal immigrants are here for work.

 

[jaeger19]

OK... Let me get this straight.

The article tries to claim that a reduction of illegal immigrants means more are going back, than coming in? I didn't see that contention supported.

The way I see it, a reduction only means their numbers are growing slower. It does not mean their numbers are declining.

A net outflow would mean that more are going out than are coming in.

From the article:

The estimated number of Mexicans in the United States illegally rose steadily for many years, from 2.9 million in 1995 to a peak of 6.9 million in 2007. But the number began dropping in 2008 and has fallen more since, reaching 5.8 million in 2014, the latest year for which Pew analyzed data.

If the number is falling, that means more illegal Mexican immigrants are leaving the United States than entering it. The numbers include both immigrants who entered the U.S. illegally and those who overstayed their visas.

that's means in 2007 their were 6.9 million illegal immigrants from mexico in the US..

and now their are 5.8 million in the US as of 2014...

which means roughly a million have left..

 

[Exactice]

And that's how it should be.

You know the funny part, I have filled out those forms as well. Its NOT as hard to provide an "Affidavit of support" in all honestly.


Why? Well First of Immigrants here are willing to work (YES they are hard workers) they are willing to work 2 jobs at minimum wage. Secondly, In comparison to a LAZY american that lost their cushy $50,000 a year + benefits job on unemployment unwilling to work at minimum wage because they cant give up their Iphone or their Lexus/Mercedes..... They live off the government.


So for a permanent resident using Chain migration its actually not that hard.... Fed Minimum Wage is $7.85 = $16,328 annual salary, Starting, + benefits. As a legal resident, with the help of some government programs, this is WAY more than enough to live. now add in the fact that they are hard workers, add 2 jobs... the double their Salary or have a second job that pays more.... Again LESS than what a LAZY American would take...

They quantify the Numbers above poverty VERY easily.


Honestly.... its not that hard to beat the system, American are AT Fault mostly for the immigration problem.... Business struggle to find workers. Unemployed Lazy people not willing to work for $7.85 and get hot and dirty....

No one ELSE BUT illegals willing to take the JOBS..... look at college kids, I know when I was 18 years old my first job was working behind a counter making minimum $6.25 scooping rice..... second job was a "Gopher" at an Electric company for $8.00 that was a BUST @$$ JOB...... Love to see a young 18 year old kid NOW actually go work in the field.......

 

[Exactice]

Listen.. I am tired of presenting you evidence.

You realize how much I have provided you right? Where I showed time and time again where you are wrong.'

So how about you back up your opinion that the vast majority are here for something other than work/. I already showed research that stated that nearly 90% (87%) of illegal men were working.

now you show me the evidence that backs up that only a small percentage of illegal immigrants are here for work.

Hold on hold on...

1) Your statements is changing. You are stating that 90% of illegal men are working. THAT I CAN 100% agree on! AND that is LIKELY TRUE.


Your PREVIOUS statement said that Illegals are COMING illegally because of work.


Thats 2 different situation. That I dont agree.


1) Agreed that they 90% of them WORK

2) Disagree that 90% of them CAME only for work.....

 

[Exactice]

ummmm I am not sure that you realize this.. but you example proves Iguanaman's point.

there was an open job.... you bid that open job..

That open job was filled by illegal immigrants.

That's exactly why they are here.

End their ability to get that job.. i.e. enforce the law on the employers... and you remove the incentive for them to be here.

the wall will do nothing to keep them out... especially since most come here LEGALLY for a job.. and simply overstay their visa... because they can still find work without a valid visa.

https://www.us-immigration.com/how-many-immigration-applications-filed-each-year/



Sorry 2013 is the recent I could find.

990,553 immigrants

649,763 Family Sponsored - 65%

161,110 employment based - 16.2%

45,618 Diversity

119,630 Refugee



dude 16% of 2013 immigrants are work related..... and THIS IS LEGAL... so you are telling me that Illegals are doing better then Illegals in Stats? LOL so 90% of the illegals coming in are coming in for work? When only 16.2% of LEGALS are coming in for work?

Really I want to see your actual proof that 90% of illegals are coming in for work. (actually I dont really, cause I can put 2 and 2 together that, its NOT likely the truth...)

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

OK... Let me get this straight.

The article tries to claim that a reduction of illegal immigrants means more are going back, than coming in? I didn't see that contention supported.

The way I see it, a reduction only means their numbers are growing slower. It does not mean their numbers are declining.

If I'm not mistaken, it's saying that more illegals from MX are going back than coming in.
And if you take a deeper look, you too will also find that most of the illegals coming in this last eight years have been Central Americans.
Most Dreamers, on the other hand, at least in the Southwest, are Mexican, but as we're now learning, some are from everywhere else, too.

Most of the illegals crossing in from MX are what most countries would consider refugees.

 

[Lord of Planar]

A net outflow would mean that more are going out than are coming in.

From the article:



that's means in 2007 their were 6.9 million illegal immigrants from mexico in the US..

and now their are 5.8 million in the US as of 2014...

which means roughly a million have left..

OK, I misunderstood what they were saying, but other estimates are upwards of 20 million.

I wonder whose numbers are right. Regardless, they are not self deporting fast enough. More needs to be done on this illegal immigration problem.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

OK, I misunderstood what they were saying, but other estimates are upwards of 20 million.

I wonder whose numbers are right. Regardless, they are not self deporting fast enough. More needs to be done on this illegal immigration problem.

You don't think they're deporting fast enough.
I didn't realize that the entire issue revolved around what you think are adequate rates of self-deportation.
And that doesn't change the fact that the wall is a sham solution aimed at the rubes, and a distraction from the real problem, namely the refugees, and the folks who were brought here as children, many of whom have green cards, many of whom are productive members of society.

And the reason Donald Trump can crow about saving American jobs while he continues to openly flaunt signs that he still prefers outsourced manufacturing is because his administration has the rubes focused on a big shiny thing.