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Criticizing your Country is Unpatrioic

Nope. I'm characterizing it just as conservatives have always done. Protest the Vietnam War? You're not a patriot. You're un-American. Believe in a socialist economic system? You're not an American. You're blacklisted by House on un-American Activities. Disagree with us? You're not an American.

Same crap since the 60's. Same knuckleheads.

BROAD BRUSH ALERT.......
BROAD BRUSH ALERT.......
BROAD BRUSH ALERT.......

Just because folks don't agree with the poop you are slinging doesn't mean they deny your right to sling poop....
 
Whether he is right or wrong is irrelevant. What matters is he feels there is injustice and many in his community feel the same way. He shouldn't be forced to stand by his employer or social pressure. What harm does it do you to simply ignore him kneeling if you disagree?

I keep asking this and none of you answer: Doesn't standing for the anthem lose all meaning when everyone is afraid not to stand?

First off, "feeling like" there is some kind of injustice is meaningless unless there is a rational basis for that "feeling". I might feel like you ripped me off but if you didn't I'm wrong and any protest I make defending my claim is wholly self serving. Are there racists in the US? Sure. Do some people get treated unfairly? Yes. That, however, does not mean that there is "systemic racism". Cops are not out to hunt down black people. Restaurants are not out to ban gay people. Courts are not out to jail people of color. That's all crazy talk and it's provable as crazy talk because innumerable blacks, gays and other people of color get by every single day without being discriminated against based on one particular characteristic.

Second, where the heck do you come up with anyone being afraid to stand for the National Anthem? These jackasses are being criticized for acting like spoiled brats.
 
I disagree with nearly every word of that. Just for example, for Vietnam, that meant silence for about a decade. For the ME, we're talking multi-decades, with no end in sight.

And the protesters weren't "communists." At least not all of them or even a majority of them. I was very young then, but according to my mom, my uncle who trained as a paratrooper before heading to Vietnam and watching a couple of dozen of his buddies get killed in battle later became a protester and he was no communist. Troubled, and likely suffered from PTSD but no commie or commie lover. I didn't hear it from him because he never, ever talked about Vietnam in my presence over the next 4 decades.

Yeah, a bunch of people got fooled into supporting the communists.

Nobody that protested the war wanted a quick victory.
 
Yeah, a bunch of people got fooled into supporting the communists.

Nobody that protested the war wanted a quick victory.

No, and no, but don't really feel like arguing the merits of the Vietnam war. Point is it's not legitimate to expect people with a moral and ethical opposition to a war (or any other action by our government) to keep quiet. We have a duty as citizens in fact to speak up when our government is engaged in what we consider a moral wrong. You might believe any war at any time for any reason is a 'good' war, or that once we enter into one for any reason that we must not EVER protest, but that's your opinion and many will disagree, vehemently, and what's great about the U.S. is we cherish the right to protest here.
 
There is no government corruption in America.
There is no police corruption in America.
There is no injustice in America.
America is the greatest nation on Earth and has no flaws.

Well, we know all 4 of those are wrong. The United States is a long shot from being the greatest country in the world: just look at that ecological disaster called the City of LA. :lol:


If you don't agree that America is perfect then you don't love America and should go find another country to live in.

Even Trump is unpatriotic with his "Make America Great Again." How dare he imply that America is not great! It's always been great and will always be great.

The American Federal government is great. The IRS is great. Everything about America is great.

I have flag pins on all my shirts and a tattoo of the flag on my chest. I stand for the anthem even if I'm at home alone. I pledge allegiance to the flag every morning and before I go to bed.

That's how much I love this great country of ours.

--American Conservative

Our country was founded by men who rebelled against their country and their flag. These men took great care to allow us the freedom to overthrow our government if it begins to oppress us. They didn't trust government. They understood that government can be corrupt.

So, what's with all the patriotism nonsense? What's with the black and white either you support the police or you're against them? Why do some think police (government workers with guns) corruption doesn't exist? What's up with questioning our fellow citizen's patriotism?

You are correct that patriotism does not mean being silent nor following your country into great errors if it is going that route.

I prefer to separate the concepts of nationalism from patriotism. Their are plenty of people in other countries who are patriotic towards their country but also don't boast with some religious fervor that their country is simply and totally the best country on earth. Or some might feel that way but be more sober about and be like, "For me [x country, say Italy or Spain or Morocco etc.] is the best country on earth."

And patriots unlike nationalists, usually don't feel compelled to join their country in storytelling of hate against another country or people (say, Jews or Russians), under the proposition "we all have to stick together on this."

But sticking together honoring the nationalists flag (in this case Old Glory) is probably a lot less harmful than sticking together to bomb Syrians, Libyans, Iranians, North Koreans, and if Americans are actually dumb enough: Russia.

But what is protesting to honor the American flag supposed to mean? It means you are protesting the National identity with its concept of "one nation" united. At least that is what I am certain they all are protesting.

They could claim another meaning (though I think they all would be lying): they are giving a symbol of duress within the country.

In the military you are taught a number of ways to symbolically communicate to fellow American forces that you or both you and your troops are under duress. I'll tell you one. You run the American flag upside down.

So, they could [be dishonest and] claim they are kneeling etc., to communicate the country is under duress. But they could have verbalized that from the beginning if that were there intent.





As a side note.... for all those that claim to be soooo patriotic but just "hate" Donald Trump who "single handedly divided the country," then one could better be a patriot in modern times if they read up on some of the patriots of the European Dark Ages. Less pampered with far more dangers in all directions (just living was dangerous) their "patriotism" (call it that instead of clan loyalty, tribe loyalty, or loyalty to their kingdom) was often the "Light Ages" compared to our pampered time in which American patriotism is supposed to come with comforts and no pains.
 
First off, "feeling like" there is some kind of injustice is meaningless unless there is a rational basis for that "feeling". I might feel like you ripped me off but if you didn't I'm wrong and any protest I make defending my claim is wholly self serving. Are there racists in the US? Sure. Do some people get treated unfairly? Yes. That, however, does not mean that there is "systemic racism". Cops are not out to hunt down black people. Restaurants are not out to ban gay people. Courts are not out to jail people of color. That's all crazy talk and it's provable as crazy talk because innumerable blacks, gays and other people of color get by every single day without being discriminated against based on one particular characteristic.

Second, where the heck do you come up with anyone being afraid to stand for the National Anthem? These jackasses are being criticized for acting like spoiled brats.

Luther, I think this is the best post of yours I have ever read but there have many more that should get at least a mention. I am giving it :stars::stars:
 
They don't have the right to undermine our troops on the battlefield. They don't have the right to force their beliefs on me.

What if the war policy made by the government is bad though? Even Trump seems to think the Iraq war was mistake, does supporting the troops means no war can ever be criticized?
 
Yeah, a bunch of people got fooled into supporting the communists.

Nobody that protested the war wanted a quick victory.

So what, I guess in WW1 the countries of Europe shpuld have kept on killing each other past 1918, because " there was quick victory around the corner"?

See take this logic out of the American nationalist context and it sounds silly. Supporting bad logic and tactics flr the sake of nationalism is foolish.
 
ROTFL, yep.

Wasn't the left who had a leader that wanted to, "fundamentally transform," the country they loved it so much? lol

And he did. We now accept medical insurance as something that the government should provide ("repeal and *replace*"), we committed ourselves to work to slow the rate of climate change, we organized the major powers of the world to negotiate with Iran after decades of useless hostility, we decided the same about Cuba despite even more decades, we decided that we shouldn't fight dumb wars, so much so that his successor from the other party claimed he didn't support the Iraq invasion. He wasn't perfect, but he was transformative.
 
Yeah, a bunch of people got fooled into supporting the communists.

Nobody that protested the war wanted a quick victory.

I protested the war and wanted no victory at all, but a quick withdrawal, taking time to protect or remove our allies there. I wasn't fooled, didn't support the communists, but understood that the French were colonialists, held Vietnam as their property for 100 years, and we replaced the French, so surprise!, we were looked on as neocolonialists. I surmised that Uncle Ho could possibly be both communist and nationalist, something the "America Love it or Leave It" crowd couldn't fathom.

I used to work with Latin American leftists. Why wouldn't many of them they admire socialism/communism if the capitalist US was training their torturers and funding government by death squad. (In truth, they were able to admire our domestic politics and deplore our foreign policy.) But hell, the Sioux and Apaches might have been communists had Lenin existed a century earlier. Stupid, paranoid US foreign policy made more commies and sympathizers than it killed.
 
I protested the war and wanted no victory at all, but a quick withdrawal, taking time to protect or remove our allies there. I wasn't fooled, didn't support the communists, but understood that the French were colonialists, held Vietnam as their property for 100 years, and we replaced the French, so surprise!, we were looked on as neocolonialists. I surmised that Uncle Ho could possibly be both communist and nationalist, something the "America Love it or Leave It" crowd couldn't fathom.

I used to work with Latin American leftists. Why wouldn't many of them they admire socialism/communism if the capitalist US was training their torturers and funding government by death squad. (In truth, they were able to admire our domestic politics and deplore our foreign policy.) But hell, the Sioux and Apaches might have been communists had Lenin existed a century earlier. Stupid, paranoid US foreign policy made more commies and sympathizers than it killed.

Thank you for proving my point.
 
What if the war policy made by the government is bad though? Even Trump seems to think the Iraq war was mistake, does supporting the troops means no war can ever be criticized?

Name one time that anti-war idiots protested for a more lethal wartime strategy to achieve a quick victory.
 
No, and no, but don't really feel like arguing the merits of the Vietnam war. Point is it's not legitimate to expect people with a moral and ethical opposition to a war (or any other action by our government) to keep quiet. We have a duty as citizens in fact to speak up when our government is engaged in what we consider a moral wrong. You might believe any war at any time for any reason is a 'good' war, or that once we enter into one for any reason that we must not EVER protest, but that's your opinion and many will disagree, vehemently, and what's great about the U.S. is we cherish the right to protest here.

The only moral and ethical position Vietnam protesters had, was that it was immoral and unethical to side with The United States against the communists.
 
The only moral and ethical position Vietnam protesters had, was that it was immoral and unethical to side with The United States against the communists.

I think most of them were just opposed to the idea that Americans should die for Vietnam to be a democracy. That is basically nation building, which has also been opposed in recent years by conservatives.
 
I think most of them were just opposed to the idea that Americans should die for Vietnam to be a democracy. That is basically nation building, which has also been opposed in recent years by conservatives.

Most of them opposed fighting the communists.
 
Most of them opposed fighting the communists.

No, I think most of them were opposed to the nation building exercise. Despite what you read in the echo chamber, most liberals are not commies.
 
No, I think most of them were opposed to the nation building exercise. Despite what you read in the echo chamber, most liberals are not commies.

It wasn't nation building. The Republic of Vietnam was already a nation.
 
It wasn't nation building. The Republic of Vietnam was already a nation.

I don't know that that is quite true. It had been a colony that had driven out the French by revolution and had consolidated two autocratic systems of which tended towards free market proto democracy and the other to command economy people's republican form. There had been no tume to consolidate a nation.
 
I don't know that that is quite true. It had been a colony that had driven out the French by revolution and had consolidated two autocratic systems of which tended towards free market proto democracy and the other to command economy people's republican form. There had been no tume to consolidate a nation.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Vietnam
 
The only moral and ethical position Vietnam protesters had, was that it was immoral and unethical to side with The United States against the communists.

Well, that's complete nonsense. I made my point on the topic of this thread which you ignored as per usual, and I don't feel like following you down a rathole this morning on this topic.
 
Well, that's complete nonsense. I made my point on the topic of this thread which you ignored as per usual, and I don't feel like following you down a rathole this morning on this topic.

It's absolite fact.

Vietnam protesters gave aid and comfort to the enemy. They were North Vietnam's propaganda arm, in The United States.
 
I protested the war and wanted no victory at all, but a quick withdrawal, taking time to protect or remove our allies there. I wasn't fooled, didn't support the communists, but understood that the French were colonialists, held Vietnam as their property for 100 years, and we replaced the French, so surprise!, we were looked on as neocolonialists. I surmised that Uncle Ho could possibly be both communist and nationalist, something the "America Love it or Leave It" crowd couldn't fathom.

I used to work with Latin American leftists. Why wouldn't many of them they admire socialism/communism if the capitalist US was training their torturers and funding government by death squad. (In truth, they were able to admire our domestic politics and deplore our foreign policy.) But hell, the Sioux and Apaches might have been communists had Lenin existed a century earlier. Stupid, paranoid US foreign policy made more commies and sympathizers than it killed.

Yep. The Cold War was tough and in its dreamer way communism/socialism has that fluffy feel about it that make the young or poorly educated confuse with higher morals. That is, what Bernhard Shaw refers ti in his famous quip. It is the same confused thinking that lets emotions to take hold, when peacenicks want to believe there can be peace and security without force and violence.
 
The only moral and ethical position Vietnam protesters had, was that it was immoral and unethical to side with The United States against the communists.

That's just your opinion which really has no value when you are trying to decide what others believe is moral and/or ethical.
 
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