Criticizing your Country is Unpatrioic

[Gaius46]

They don't have the right to undermine our troops on the battlefield. They don't have the right to force their beliefs on me.

I'll agree that assholes who personally insulted people in the military are assholes but it's their right to insult whomever they want and be the biggest assholes they want to be. That aside protesting to end a war does not undermine anyone.

Did anyone put a gun to head and tell you to believe them? Short of that no one is forcing their beliefs on you.

 

[Lutherf]

There is no government corruption in America.
There is no police corruption in America.
There is no injustice in America.
America is the greatest nation on Earth and has no flaws.

If you don't agree that America is perfect then you don't love America and should go find another country to live in.

Even Trump is unpatriotic with his "Make America Great Again." How dare he imply that America is not great! It's always been great and will always be great.

The American Federal government is great. The IRS is great. Everything about America is great.

I have flag pins on all my shirts and a tattoo of the flag on my chest. I stand for the anthem even if I'm at home alone. I pledge allegiance to the flag every morning and before I go to bed.

That's how much I love this great country of ours.

--American Conservative

Our country was founded by men who rebelled against their country and their flag. These men took great care to allow us the freedom to overthrow our government if it begins to oppress us. They didn't trust government. They understood that government can be corrupt.

So, what's with all the patriotism nonsense? What's with the black and white either you support the police or you're against them? Why do some think police (government workers with guns) corruption doesn't exist? What's up with questioning our fellow citizen's patriotism?

Criticism is fine. So is disrespect.

The reaction against the players taking a knee isn't about their criticism of America, no matter how misguided. It's about the disrespect they are showing to their fellow Americans.

 

[SonOfDaedalus]

I don't think you know what a strawman is, nevermind irony.

A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Argument: There is an elevated level of police (government employees with guns) corruption in minority communities
Straw Man: Players are protesting America.

Irony

an outcome of events contrary to what was, or might have been, expected.

Irony | Define Irony at Dictionary.com

Your intent was to prove I'm using a fallacious straw man argument. In the process, you are proven to be using a straw man argument.

I'm happy to educate you.

Now where is your argument. Our country was founded by man who renounced patriotism and criticized their country. They made every effort to create a country where men are free to criticize. So, how is criticizing your country for corrupt government employees with guns unpatriotic? How is firing people who don't show enough patriotism an American ideal?

You don't really believe in American ideals. You want an authoritarian country where people pretend there is no government corruption and people are forced to stand for the anthem. Those who speak out against government corruption are vilified. That's not America.

 

[SonOfDaedalus]

Criticism is fine. So is disrespect.

The reaction against the players taking a knee isn't about their criticism of America, no matter how misguided. It's about the disrespect they are showing to their fellow Americans.

But you're the one equating kneeling with disrespect. It's not a fact. It's a subjective interpretation of an action. Why don't you ask the players what their actions mean or what they are trying to say?

Here's a player. Listen to what he means instead of imposing your own meaning



Where did you hear disrespect in his explanation?

 

[apdst]

I'll agree that assholes who personally insulted people in the military are assholes but it's their right to insult whomever they want and be the biggest assholes they want to be. That aside protesting to end a war does not undermine anyone.

Did anyone put a gun to head and tell you to believe them? Short of that no one is forcing their beliefs on you.

Protesting a war undermines troop morale and emboldens the enemy.

A gun? No, but there are people in America that want to use the law to force their **** on others.

 

[JasperL]

I don't think you know what a strawman is, nevermind irony.

Imagine if they put that kind of effort into a much larger picture in the black community, like inner city violence. nah.... they are too worried about "hands up don't shoot" idiocy and anti-trump grandstanding. It's sad to see them destroy themselves over this.

Well, Colin Kaepernick has made $900,000 in donations in 9 months to various charities, and is otherwise involved in charitable work, and has been for a while. Like that?

 

[MrPeanut]

I get really tired of the idea that conservatives have a special monopoly on patriotism. It's such a predictable game that it's hard for me to understand how they can keep it up with a straight face. Remember trying to criticize Bush when he was in office? You were un-American for saying things about the president during war time. Once Obama came in suddenly the president couldn't be criticized enough. Now that trump is in we are back to this fake patriotism. Football players take a knee during the anthem to protest what they feel is deep set racial inequalities in our country. The response from conservatives is predictable. "What about the soldiers?", "What about the country?", or "Now is the time to band together!" Cut it out and listen to what these people have to say or find something else to do. Don't put words in their mouths because you can't handle what they are actually saying. Don't yell about snowflakes because you're so sensitive that someone kneeling during the anthem has to be twisted into some sort of insult against dead soldiers.

 

[ReverendHellh0und]

Well, Colin Kaepernick has made $900,000 in donations in 9 months to various charities, and is otherwise involved in charitable work, and has been for a while. Like that?

WWW.KAEPERNICK7.COM ? OFFICIAL SITE OF COLIN KAEPERNICK

here's his donations. I applaud most of those. some are simple activist anti-cop groups, but the youth clubs, the social programs, those are who he should be focusing on. Imaging if he made those the forfront, not his kneeling antics and pissing off his customers. And yes, those. Why not make that the norm with all the players in the league, instead of getting fans to boo you.

 

[JasperL]

Protesting a war undermines troop morale and emboldens the enemy.

A gun? No, but there are people in America that want to use the law to force their **** on others.

OK, assuming that is true, what is the option if the majority of Americans are deeply and morally opposed to a war? Surely you can't believe we have some kind of moral or ethical obligation to stay silent while the country fights a war the public opposes that will cost $billions or $trillions and cost American lives. That's the stuff of North Korea or China, not ANY actually free society. Seems to me we have a patriotic duty to protest a government we don't believe is acting in our best interests, and nowhere is that obligation as urgent as on matters of war.

 

[fmw]

Freedom means freedom to criticize.

Of course. But sensible people choose an appropriate time and place. A football game isn't it.

 

[SonOfDaedalus]

I get really tired of the idea that conservatives have a special monopoly on patriotism. It's such a predictable game that it's hard for me to understand how they can keep it up with a straight face. Remember trying to criticize Bush when he was in office? You were un-American for saying things about the president during war time. Once Obama came in suddenly the president couldn't be criticized enough. Now that trump is in we are back to this fake patriotism. Football players take a knee during the anthem to protest what they feel is deep set racial inequalities in our country. The response from conservatives is predictable. "What about the soldiers?", "What about the country?", or "Now is the time to band together!" Cut it out and listen to what these people have to say or find something else to do. Don't put words in their mouths because you can't handle what they are actually saying. Don't yell about snowflakes because you're so sensitive that someone kneeling during the anthem has to be twisted into some sort of insult against dead soldiers.

Preach brother

Sadly, I think those people are hopeless. I listened to conservative radio today and had to turn it off. They said the players were "spitting on the flag." That's their new straw man. How can the NFL allow these players to spit on the flag?

Everyone who complains about injustice in America is unpatriotic. Yet, they're always griping about how the government is violating their 2nd Amendment but that's not unpatriotic. Only conservatives can criticize the government.

How many decades do we have to put up with this idiotic nonsense? Remember Mohammad Ali's refusal to go to Vietnam? They flipped out. They're still flipping out.

 

[SonOfDaedalus]

Of course. But sensible people choose an appropriate time and place. A football game isn't it.

The football game starts when the ball is kicked off.

This is not even about protesting. This is about you FORCING them to stand. Some sit. Some stand. Some stand with a raised fist. Some take a middle ground and kneel. I didn't see anyone turn their backs.

Do they have your permission not to stand?

 

[apdst]

OK, assuming that is true, what is the option if the majority of Americans are deeply and morally opposed to a war? Surely you can't believe we have some kind of moral or ethical obligation to stay silent while the country fights a war the public opposes that will cost $billions or $trillions and cost American lives. That's the stuff of North Korea or China, not ANY actually free society. Seems to me we have a patriotic duty to protest a government we don't believe is acting in our best interests, and nowhere is that obligation as urgent as on matters of war.

Once the war starts, get with the team, go in for the big win. Once the war is over, resume opposition.

We have a moral obligation to support troop morale and avoid boosting the enemy's morale.

War protesters can only lengthen a war, which will cost more money and more lives. The anti-Vietnam protestors were communists and their objective was to cause America to lose. Historically speaking, any time Americans protest a war, it's usually because they sympathize with the enemy.

 

[Gaius46]

Protesting a war undermines troop morale and emboldens the enemy.

A gun? No, but there are people in America that want to use the law to force their **** on others.

So in your view once the government decides to go to war the people have no choice but to go along not matter how wrong they think it is? How far do you take that? If Congress dissents are they undermining the troops?

Needless to say I disagree. Even if it hurts troop morale - and I honestly don't buy that it does in any significant way - the protesters would see ending an unjust war and not getting people needlessly killed as more important.

And in any case we aren't talking about protesting a war here. We're talking about protesting racism in America. Has nothing to do with the troops. Except well for the fact that there are lots of minorities in the military and while the military is colorblind the world those soldiers' families inhabit isn't.


And I agree about forcing beliefs. It's not restricted though to any one political ideology. Liberals and conservatives are equally guilty.

 

[fmw]

The football game starts when the ball is kicked off.

This is not even about protesting. This is about you FORCING them to stand. Some sit. Some stand. Some stand with a raised fist. Some take a middle ground and kneel. I didn't see anyone turn their backs.

Do they have your permission not to stand?

No, I suggested that the football game is not a good venue for protesting whatever it is they are protesting. I don't care that they do it. I think it is self destructive. I haven't forced them to do anything. They don't need my permission to do anything. Sorry your post was pointless.

 

[JasperL]

Once the war starts, get with the team, go in for the big win. Once the war is over, resume opposition.

We have a moral obligation to support troop morale and avoid boosting the enemy's morale.

War protesters can only lengthen a war, which will cost more money and more lives. The anti-Vietnam protestors were communists and their objective was to cause America to lose. Historically speaking, any time Americans protest a war, it's usually because they sympathize with the enemy.

I disagree with nearly every word of that. Just for example, for Vietnam, that meant silence for about a decade. For the ME, we're talking multi-decades, with no end in sight.

And the protesters weren't "communists." At least not all of them or even a majority of them. I was very young then, but according to my mom, my uncle who trained as a paratrooper before heading to Vietnam and watching a couple of dozen of his buddies get killed in battle later became a protester and he was no communist. Troubled, and likely suffered from PTSD but no commie or commie lover. I didn't hear it from him because he never, ever talked about Vietnam in my presence over the next 4 decades.

 

[Absentglare]

Of course. But sensible people choose an appropriate time and place. A football game isn't it.

Great, so your opinion is that the players don't have good sense.

I can suppose that during a serious crisis in Puerto Rico and escalating hostilities with North Korea isn't an appropriate time for our president to whine about black athletes who try to bring awareness to social justice.

 

[Lutherf]

But you're the one equating kneeling with disrespect. It's not a fact. It's a subjective interpretation of an action. Why don't you ask the players what their actions mean or what they are trying to say?

Here's a player. Listen to what he means instead of imposing your own meaning



Where did you hear disrespect in his explanation?

Here's my take on this.

To believe what this idiot believes you'd have to show that black poverty, black graduation rates, black crime rates and black incarceration rates are all due to institutional racism AND that blacks are neither complicit in any of these things nor capable of overcoming the causes of these hardships. Furthermore, you'd have to believe that somehow or other an guy who makes $5M a year playing football taking a knee during the National Anthem is going to fix those problems.

I DARE these guys to go into New Orleans, or Baltimore or St Louis or Chicago and take a knee on the street corner where some gang banger blew another gang banger away for slinging sacks on "his" street corner. I dare them to take a knee at the doorsteps to a ghetto middle school where the dropout rate is 40%. I dare them to take a knee at the maternity ward where some woman just gave birth to her fourth child by her fourth baby daddy who, like the other three, is unlikely to provide any support. I dare them to take a knee in their own locker room where odds are they have multiple teammates sending checks to multiple women with whom they have fathered children but they have never thrown a ball to those kids and only know the names through court papers.

Yeah, there are racists out there but the jackass with the shamrock tattoo on his belly isn't the one causing these problems. Hell, he's probably got the same problems himself because most of this crap isn't due to "institutional racism". It's due to idiots like these spoiled brats choosing to make meaningless gestures for their own self-aggrandizement rather than fixing things.

 

[JasperL]

Here's my take on this.

To believe what this idiot believes you'd have to show that black poverty, black graduation rates, black crime rates and black incarceration rates are all due to institutional racism AND that blacks are neither complicit in any of these things nor capable of overcoming the causes of these hardships. Furthermore, you'd have to believe that somehow or other an guy who makes $5M a year playing football taking a knee during the National Anthem is going to fix those problems.

No you don't have to show any of that. It's possible that there are multiple causes for problems in the black community. And it's also unreasonable to place as a condition that the only reason to take ANY action is if you believe doing that, and only doing that, will fix the problem. You tell me any noble act of charity or protest and 100% of them will be insufficient to solve ANY problem, no matter how minor.

I DARE these guys to go into New Orleans, or Baltimore or St Louis or Chicago and take a knee on the street corner where some gang banger blew another gang banger away for slinging sacks on "his" street corner. I dare them to take a knee at the doorsteps to a ghetto middle school where the dropout rate is 40%. I dare them to take a knee at the maternity ward where some woman just gave birth to her fourth child by her fourth baby daddy who, like the other three, is unlikely to provide any support. I dare them to take a knee in their own locker room where odds are they have multiple teammates sending checks to multiple women with whom they have fathered children but they have never thrown a ball to those kids and only know the names through court papers.

Yeah, there are racists out there but the jackass with the shamrock tattoo on his belly isn't the one causing these problems. Hell, he's probably got the same problems himself because most of this crap isn't due to "institutional racism". It's due to idiots like these spoiled brats choosing to make meaningless gestures for their own self-aggrandizement rather than fixing things.

That's a nice rant but it's just a rant. You're broad brushing all these people but you know nothing about them. I know because I've read the stories that at least some of them, including Colin Kaepernick, are literally putting their money and time where their mouth is. What have YOU done? Can you say you've done more good than all those protesting when you don't know what they've done in the off season or what they do in their spare time during the season?

 

[fmw]

Great, so your opinion is that the players don't have good sense.

I can suppose that during a serious crisis in Puerto Rico and escalating hostilities with North Korea isn't an appropriate time for our president to whine about black athletes who try to bring awareness to social justice.

You can suppose whatever you like. Correct about the players. They aren't displaying common sense. Common sense would tell you that damaging your reputation, your employer and your sport isn't sensible. There are right and wrong places to demonstrate. Doing it at work is normally considered a bad idea. If these guys have some beef with society they should write about it or go on TV shows or do whatever they think they need to do. But doing it at work is plain stupid. They have things to lose and not a single thing to gain by it. Politics and sports don't mix. Ever.

 

[Lutherf]

No you don't have to show any of that. It's possible that there are multiple causes for problems in the black community. And it's also unreasonable to place as a condition that the only reason to take ANY action is if you believe doing that, and only doing that, will fix the problem. You tell me any noble act of charity or protest and 100% of them will be insufficient to solve ANY problem, no matter how minor.



That's a nice rant but it's just a rant. You're broad brushing all these people but you know nothing about them. I know because I've read the stories that at least some of them, including Colin Kaepernick, are literally putting their money and time where their mouth is. What have YOU done? Can you say you've done more good than all those protesting when you don't know what they've done in the off season or what they do in their spare time during the season?

Some have actually done something. Jim Brown and Ray Lewis, for example, have put not only money but also personal time and energy into dealing with some of these problems. The money some of these athletes throw at local charities is also appreciated as are their personal appearances but, frankly, it takes more than money and shaking some hands to fix what's wrong. Granted, most liberals have convinced themselves that more of other people's money can fix anything but that doesn't mean they're right.

I will cut some of these guys a little slack and admit that for every check they write to a local charity there's a good chance that some huckster is lining his own pockets with a significant chunk of that money.

 

[Moderate Right]

There is no government corruption in America.
There is no police corruption in America.
There is no injustice in America.
America is the greatest nation on Earth and has no flaws.

If you don't agree that America is perfect then you don't love America and should go find another country to live in.

Even Trump is unpatriotic with his "Make America Great Again." How dare he imply that America is not great! It's always been great and will always be great.

The American Federal government is great. The IRS is great. Everything about America is great.

I have flag pins on all my shirts and a tattoo of the flag on my chest. I stand for the anthem even if I'm at home alone. I pledge allegiance to the flag every morning and before I go to bed.

That's how much I love this great country of ours.

--American Conservative

Our country was founded by men who rebelled against their country and their flag. These men took great care to allow us the freedom to overthrow our government if it begins to oppress us. They didn't trust government. They understood that government can be corrupt.

So, what's with all the patriotism nonsense? What's with the black and white either you support the police or you're against them? Why do some think police (government workers with guns) corruption doesn't exist? What's up with questioning our fellow citizen's patriotism?

The difference is there is a time and a place for everything. If you want to be a political activist then fine. Do whatever you want AFTER the game. Donate your money, donate your time. Stand with the protesters in St. Louis. Do the talk show circuit. But, spitting on our country, spitting on the American flag, spitting on our national anthem, is not the venue to express your political activism. This country has never been perfect, isn't perfect now, and never will be perfect. Do something to change it - other than disrespecting it and do it after the game.

 

[SonOfDaedalus]

The difference is there is a time and a place for everything. If you want to be a political activist then fine. Do whatever you want AFTER the game. Donate your money, donate your time. Stand with the protesters in St. Louis. Do the talk show circuit.

I agree. But standing or sitting during the anthem should be something done voluntarily. If someone feels that the nation is not keeping it's promise of freedom for all it feels hollow to them. And forcing everyone to stand through social pressure makes the entire thing hollow and utterly empty.

But, spitting on our country, spitting on the American flag, spitting on our national anthem

No, you're spitting on the flag. You're spitting on freedom and creating a nation where social pressure and fear of losing your job compels you to stand. Standing for the anthem becomes an empty meaningless compulsion.

Notice how I interpreted what you said as "spitting"? See, how unfair it is. There was no spitting. They didn't spit. You didn't spit. They are supporting true American ideals of equality. It takes courage.

 

[SonOfDaedalus]

Here's my take on this.

To believe what this idiot believes you'd have to show....

Whether he is right or wrong is irrelevant. What matters is he feels there is injustice and many in his community feel the same way. He shouldn't be forced to stand by his employer or social pressure. What harm does it do you to simply ignore him kneeling if you disagree?

I keep asking this and none of you answer: Doesn't standing for the anthem lose all meaning when everyone is afraid not to stand?

 

[Perotista]

There is no government corruption in America.
There is no police corruption in America.
There is no injustice in America.
America is the greatest nation on Earth and has no flaws.

If you don't agree that America is perfect then you don't love America and should go find another country to live in.

Even Trump is unpatriotic with his "Make America Great Again." How dare he imply that America is not great! It's always been great and will always be great.

The American Federal government is great. The IRS is great. Everything about America is great.

I have flag pins on all my shirts and a tattoo of the flag on my chest. I stand for the anthem even if I'm at home alone. I pledge allegiance to the flag every morning and before I go to bed.

That's how much I love this great country of ours.

--American Conservative

Our country was founded by men who rebelled against their country and their flag. These men took great care to allow us the freedom to overthrow our government if it begins to oppress us. They didn't trust government. They understood that government can be corrupt.

So, what's with all the patriotism nonsense? What's with the black and white either you support the police or you're against them? Why do some think police (government workers with guns) corruption doesn't exist? What's up with questioning our fellow citizen's patriotism?

This has nothing to do with patriotism. Trump attacked the NFL and the NFL is attacking back pure and simple. It's a game pitting millionaire players and billionaire NFL owners against a president who also happens to be a billionaire. The moneyed elitist are fighting each other. Let them duke it out, I have no sympathy for either side. Far as I'm concerned, both are ignorant bastards.

I just wish they would take their attacks on each other off the football field. Most of us tune into football or go watch a game to get away from the daily grinds of life, to leave the reality of the real world for a couple of hours in the world of sports. Not to watch another political fight. If I want politics, I come to a site like this one. When I don't, I watch a baseball or football game. Now these insane idiots are trying to spoil the sport and make me have to live in the real world 24/7.

At least, so far, baseball has been politics free. To Hades in a hand basket with the NFL. All three, the players, NFL owners, Trump, they all should take their fight to Fox on Hannity or MSNBC on Maddow. That's where politics belong, not on the football field.