Bernie yes, Biden no

[Exquisitor]

I'll use my primary election vote put Biden out in front of Bernie.

Good idea.

The problem with this is that most voters will hear "socialism" and it will end there. That is one of many reasons (imo) Bernie would not win a general election.

The word socialism is what got him last time, besides having no way to deliver his promises which looks true this time too, so you might be right, Trump has the new moon advantage and will not break the model to win in any case.

No one else to vote for with a score; Tulsi ties Trump at five, the girls (amy and warren) around one, the boys are at seven.

The link is on my sig line.

Biden is a good choice.

Sanders lost me giving felons the right to vote.

It's the Tribulation (2020-2026) convergence, what does he think it is, Christmastime?

Besides that he came on the stage with messed up hair affecting my choice and impression.

Klobuchar is who I like, then Warren, but they have lower scores really so I might take your lead and vote for Biden too.

McAuliffe is the last one out at nine so Biden is the only choice.

 

[smallvoice]

Right. Fine. What I said, smallvoice, was that "the foundation of socialism is government control of the means of production". Do you understand that? Nothing about socialism being a success. Of course I know the record of socialism worldwide so don't waste your words preaching the obvious to me.
I asked you what you mean by 'socialism'- do you say Bernie Sanders advocates government control? Do you have an example of the type of socialist Sanders is?
Or is all you've got the simple-minded series,- "Socialism bad, Bernie socialist, Bernie bad."?

Look, if it's so damned obvious, why would you even give Bernie the time of day? It really is that simple, if someone touts a system that has never been successful, who cares what kind of socialist he is? or what he wants to do? If the camel gets his nose under the edge of the tent, he's coming in.

 

[Verax]

Socialism means different things to different people. To most of the older guard, it means Lenin holding your neck down with a boot and confiscating your business. To the new guard, it means a living wage, honest capitalism and healthcare.

The people in the latter group will elect Bernie POTUS.

 

[jnug]

The problem for Bernie is that the Left of the Dem party candidate grouping is going to end up a dog pile on the carpeting. Bernie is a nasty "get off my lawn" old man when pressed and he will be pressed. That is not the situation Bernie had in 2016. He had Hilary, who never engendered much empathy from anybody. I suspect Bernie is going to blow himself up just trying to get out of the Dem Far Left Dog Pile on the Carpeting.

There is a difference between tough, knock your block off fighting and just plain nasty. Nasty is not a good look.

 

[Grand Mal]

Look, if it's so damned obvious, why would you even give Bernie the time of day? It really is that simple, if someone touts a system that has never been successful, who cares what kind of socialist he is? or what he wants to do? If the camel gets his nose under the edge of the tent, he's coming in.

You still haven't shown me what Sanders advocates that you object to.
Let's do this- what do you consider 'socialism' means? Can there be socialism without government control of production? If so, what is it that Sanders says that turns you against him?

 

[smallvoice]

You still haven't shown me what Sanders advocates that you object to.
Let's do this- what do you consider 'socialism' means? Can there be socialism without government control of production? If so, what is it that Sanders says that turns you against him?

I DID. The first thing I said to you was "Socialism".The only acceptable socialist activities are those that society deems efficient to provide FOR society, things like fire departments, police departments, roads, etc. If society wants to band together to build a community hospital and allow medical staff to use it to provide for the common good, that's a form of socialism that meets the criteria. The government has a role in ensuring that health and welfare of all the people is protected, but why should they be controlling the operation of the activity in question?

 

[DH Kirkwood]

Polls say differently now, but I sincerely believe that if Bernie wins the nom, we'll have 4 more years of Trump.

But you Dems do what you have to do, even if it's nominating someone who only claims to be a Democrat every four years so he can run for president.

'I don't have any tangible evidence for this, nor am I even going to explain my nonsense, but . . .'

Trump won his nomination in part, because of the rise alt-right, but also because people are sick of establishment politics. Another way to put it is that people generally get that it's not rain that's pouring down their backs, even if they're not certain where the wet, slimy sensation is coming from, or why it smells so wretchedly.

Keep in mind that not all card-carrying Republicans or even Trump supporters truly understand political idealogies or everything that the Republicans do. Most people don't frequent political forums, and a lot of people who identify with either party are actually pretty apolitical . . . or confused. There are a lot of folks out there who only understand one or two issues, or simply vote out of brand loyalty--I used to be one of the latter. When you poll people on policy stances and when you give them a choice at the ballot, progressive ideas and initiatives ussually win hand-over-fist. We just passed three such initiatives here in Missouri, and we are not exactly what you would call a left-leaning state. A lot of what goes into support for either party boils down to simple rhetoric and a few wedge issues, and once you have a challenger with a clear message that resonates with folks, then it comes unglued.

Sanders started off the last election with no hope, and then preceded to melt a wide-gap, ending in a closer-than-expected race despite all the hinky **** going on. This time around he's either the clear front-runner, or close to it, depending on whether or not you think Biden has a chance. He's not showing any signs of slowing down, all the while the establishment has already swapped out pushing Beto, for pushing Butigieg. Biden, on the other hand has never done well any other time he's ran, always tanking the more he talks, and he's dealing with a slew of accusations of creepiness. Biden's early support comes from people pining for the Obama years, and not much else.

 

[DH Kirkwood]

You know, if policy and consistency of position were actually important to people, Elizabeth Warren would come out on top, no contest.

But oh noes, she took a DNA test and took Trump's troll bait. Now she can't be President.

I often doubt that this country is deserving of a principled and qualified leader.

She also came out on a progressive network and said that she would take PAC-money in a general election, and she's inserted weasel words into support for medicare-for-all. I'd vote for her over Kamala and Booker, but I consider her to be behind Gabbard and Sanders. I would prefer that she be stronger on these two issues. She also doesn't seem to have much of a backbone in comparrison to those two--I wasn't surprised when she eventually endorsed Clinton, but she also said that the Dem primary was rigged, before she said that it wasn't. In previous elections, I would consider this to be small potatoes, but I actually think we have better candidates running, and so long as we're in the primary stage of things, I'll be throwing my support to them.

 

[DH Kirkwood]

You must have cut classes for the rest of that course. There a lot more to it than one cute little snippet. Nowhere in history has a socialist experiment been successful. The basic reason is that socialism stifles initiative. Pretty soon the hard workers find out that their hard work doesn't return any different than the slacker, so they stop working hard. Failure of the system is not far behind.

There is actually a country that elected someone with rhetoric and policy stances very similar to Sanders. He didn't call himself a socialist, or a social-democrat, but that country managed to thrive for decades while keeping top marginal tax rates between seventy and ninety percent. The United States of America.

 

[SoCal]

The US is at a historic point, where the concrete of plutocracy will either harden or get attacked. The two main previous inflection points in the country were FDR and Reagan.

Bernie is a third, to right the course of the nation for the public to regain control of our country from the plutocrats. He's a once in many elections chance for that.

Biden is not. Biden is a plutocrat-friendly, centrist Democrat of the sort that continues the Reagan inflection, that will simply oversee continuing the road to more inequality, not returning the government to the people.

While of course Biden would be better than any Republican, it would be terrible for the country instead of changing course with a progressive, preferably Bernie. Not to mention, Bernie will win if nominated much more likely than Biden, who will turn off much of the country similarly to Hillary.

Biden's our man if he's polling like this just before the nomination. If Bernie takes his place, all Dems, independents and moderate conservatives should be voting for Sanders...

"...Along with his advantage over Trump, Biden has held a consistent lead in Morning Consult’s weekly tracking among likely Democratic primary voters. Three in 10 of those voters said the Delawarean was their top pick in the latest poll, followed by 24 percent who chose Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders. (Biden’s 6-point advantage is similar to his average 7-point lead over the Democratic socialist in the 12 tracking polls.)...

...A new Morning Consult/Politico poll conducted April 19-21 among 1,992 registered voters found Biden leading the president by 8 percentage points in a hypothetical matchup, 42 percent to 34 percent. Biden has a significant edge over Trump among women (17 points), millennials (22 points) and independents (10 points)…"

 

[jnug]

The problem for Bernie is that the Left of the Dem party candidate grouping is going to end up a dog pile on the carpeting. Bernie is a nasty "get off my lawn" old man when pressed and he will be pressed. That is not the situation Bernie had in 2016. He had Hilary, who never engendered much empathy from anybody. I suspect Bernie is going to blow himself up just trying to get out of the Dem Far Left Dog Pile on the Carpeting.

There is a difference between tough, knock your block off fighting and just plain nasty. Nasty is not a good look.

The other problem Bernie has is that he appears fairly tone deaf to what appeals to the African American community.

First I don't think his position on letting inmates in prison including those there for violent offenses is going to earn him any juice with African Americans. Much crime committed by African Americans is crime committed on other African Americans. So I don't know where Bernie thinks he is going with that.

In addition, Bernie just appeared at the "She the People" Black Women's Conference and tried to run his "I marched with MLK" narrative past them. Though he did march with MLK, the audience responded very badly sensing that Bernie was trying to earn their vote off MLB's back. Bernie was literally greeted with "don't try to run that past us you jiveassed MFer". it was not a pretty picture.

 

[noonereal]

The US is at a historic point, where the concrete of plutocracy will either harden or get attacked. The two main previous inflection points in the country were FDR and Reagan.

Bernie is a third, to right the course of the nation for the public to regain control of our country from the plutocrats. He's a once in many elections chance for that.

Biden is not. Biden is a plutocrat-friendly, centrist Democrat of the sort that continues the Reagan inflection, that will simply oversee continuing the road to more inequality, not returning the government to the people.

While of course Biden would be better than any Republican, it would be terrible for the country instead of changing course with a progressive, preferably Bernie. Not to mention, Bernie will win if nominated much more likely than Biden, who will turn off much of the country similarly to Hillary.

Even if you are correct, which you are not, Sanders cannot get elected. So you damn us to Trump.

 

[smallvoice]

There is actually a country that elected someone with rhetoric and policy stances very similar to Sanders. He didn't call himself a socialist, or a social-democrat, but that country managed to thrive for decades while keeping top marginal tax rates between seventy and ninety percent. The United States of America.

and another good reason not to elect Bernie...

 

[Cardinal]

She also came out on a progressive network and said that she would take PAC-money in a general election, and she's inserted weasel words into support for medicare-for-all. I'd vote for her over Kamala and Booker, but I consider her to be behind Gabbard and Sanders. I would prefer that she be stronger on these two issues. She also doesn't seem to have much of a backbone in comparrison to those two--I wasn't surprised when she eventually endorsed Clinton, but she also said that the Dem primary was rigged, before she said that it wasn't. In previous elections, I would consider this to be small potatoes, but I actually think we have better candidates running, and so long as we're in the primary stage of things, I'll be throwing my support to them.

All nonsense. Her policy record is airtight, and she's the first to decisively argue in favor of impeachment. She ties with Sanders in the backbone department.

 

[mike2810]

Nominate Biden and I will vote for him. Nominate Sanders and my vote will not go for him.

 

[Luckyone]

The US is at a historic point, where the concrete of plutocracy will either harden or get attacked. The two main previous inflection points in the country were FDR and Reagan.

Bernie is a third, to right the course of the nation for the public to regain control of our country from the plutocrats. He's a once in many elections chance for that.

Biden is not. Biden is a plutocrat-friendly, centrist Democrat of the sort that continues the Reagan inflection, that will simply oversee continuing the road to more inequality, not returning the government to the people.

While of course Biden would be better than any Republican, it would be terrible for the country instead of changing course with a progressive, preferably Bernie. Not to mention, Bernie will win if nominated much more likely than Biden, who will turn off much of the country similarly to Hillary.

At this stage of the game, a brick wall would be better than Trump.

One thing I know is that going from one extreme to the other is not something people respond well to. Don't get me wrong, I love Bernie and want to see him be President. Nonetheless, such a drastic change will likely cause as much hate and disruption as Trump has brought about and it is always better to go about change slowly than in one fell swoop. In this case, Biden would be better for the nation. After Biden, the next President could be an extreme capitalistic left like Bernie, though by that time, Bernie would not likely be alive or in a position to be president. But someone like Warren would be.

That is my opinion but understand that I overall prefer Bernie.

 

[Luckyone]

Polls say differently now, but I sincerely believe that if Bernie wins the nom, we'll have 4 more years of Trump.

But you Dems do what you have to do, even if it's nominating someone who only claims to be a Democrat every four years so he can run for president.

Have you already forgotten than in 2016 polls, Bernie was beating Trump by 13% and Hillary was only beating Trump by 5%?

When respondents in our NBC News|SurveyMonkey Weekly Election Tracking Poll were asked whether they would cast a vote for Trump or either of the Democratic candidates still in the race, Sanders is the favorite over Trump by 13 points.

Clinton also beats Trump, but the race is decidedly closer — 49 percent to 44 percent. These results are according to the latest from the NBC News|SurveyMonkey Weekly Election Tracking Poll conducted online from May 2 through May 8 of 12,714 adults including 11,089 registered voters.

Since then, Bernie has done no wrong and Trump has turned the nation into a sty. As such, what makes you think that if Bernie is the candidate that Trump would win? What do you have to support your idea? your opinion?

 

[DH Kirkwood]

All nonsense. Her policy record is airtight, and she's the first to decisively argue in favor of impeachment. She ties with Sanders in the backbone department.

Impeachment? ****, is that all you think about? Is the entirety of your head-space filled with 'GottaGetRidofTrumpGottaGetRidofTrumpNothingElseMattersGottaGetRidofTrump'?

Anyway, it's not going to happen, and it's not what I'm looking for in someone that is going to be in office when Trump is gone, whichever way he gets gone. She's proven that she listens to her strategists far too often, tipping her hat to establishment even more than Bernie ever did, and I would argue that he plays too nice, himself. Warren has an excellent record, I'll give you that, and she's one of a handful of honest politicians that exist, but in race where multiple progressives and people claiming to be progressive are running, I'll take the one that didn't give wishy-washy answers on medicare-for-all and taking corporate PAC-money.

 

[Luckyone]

Whoever the Democrats nominate better be thick-skinned and squeaky-clean. If the right-wing media can't dig up any dirt or anything they can spin into dirt, they'll make something up.
In fact, that's liable to start tomorrow.

A Democratic nominee need not be squeekly clean given that the bar has been lowered so much more than ever before and clean is no longer all that important. What you need is a fighter that has thick skin and a sharp mind and wit to counter Trumps attacks. In addition, one thing that will destroy Trump is a lovable person. Both Bernie and Biden are lovable. Hillary was NOT!

 

[Luckyone]

IMHO, the demorat base has moved so far left that whoever can win the DNC primary will have little chance of winning the general POTUS election.

Moved so far left? I don't think they have moved any more than they were before. Hillary barely beat Bernie and she beat him because she was a woman, was a known factor and represented the Clinton name and Bill, in spite of what he did, was loved. Nonetheless, Bernie got a lot of support and he is and was considered the far left and that has not changed.

 

[DH Kirkwood]

and another good reason not to elect Bernie...

So another 'good reason' not to elect Bernie is a decades long demonstration of economic prosperity and the rise of the United States as the dominant global power. Okily dokily.

For the record though, I don't atribute our rise as a super-power to FDR. I do, however, think that it says something that so much of the rhetoric and arguements against social security were to medicare-for-all, how FDR was decried as a socialist, yet the sky did not fall down. We didn't enter into an era of economic dispairity until Reagan took office and pushed the idea of 'trickle-down'.

 

[smallvoice]

So another 'good reason' not to elect Bernie is a decades long demonstration of economic prosperity and the rise of the United States as the dominant global power. Okily dokily.

For the record though, I don't atribute our rise as a super-power to FDR. I do, however, think that it says something that so much of the rhetoric and arguements against social security were to medicare-for-all, how FDR was decried as a socialist, yet the sky did not fall down. We didn't enter into an era of economic dispairity until Reagan took office and pushed the idea of 'trickle-down'.

A decades long socialist experiment in the US? When might that have been? and what is economic dispairity?

 

[Luckyone]

You know, if policy and consistency of position were actually important to people, Elizabeth Warren would come out on top, no contest.

But oh noes, she took a DNA test and took Trump's troll bait. Now she can't be President.

I often doubt that this country is deserving of a principled and qualified leader.

One big problem that exists and has existed for over 50 years is that to get to the top, to become the nominee of a party a person has to sell themselves to the lobbyists. As such, it is nearly impossible for a clean and highly principled person to become President.

Nonetheless, I have to say that Bernie is the closest we have come to a highly principled and unlikely-to-sell-himself-to-anyone given that his economic support comes from small donations for the populace and not from any big money donor. Bernie is the only person that could become President and be clean doing it. Corruption will never be anything that Bernie can be accused of.

Whether Bernie would be good for the nation is open for discussion, but he would be a man I could respect and be respected by everyone that he truly has the nation's best intentions in mind. When he promises to defend the nation and the Constitution, he would be believed and he would deliver.

 

[smallvoice]

A Democratic nominee need not be squeekly clean given that the bar has been lowered so much more than ever before and clean is no longer all that important. What you need is a fighter that has thick skin and a sharp mind and wit to counter Trumps attacks. In addition, one thing that will destroy Trump is a lovable person. Both Bernie and Biden are lovable. Hillary was NOT!

That democrat nominee better have something other than socialism, and "lovable" will never describe Bernie, except for those who want something paid for by someone who earned the money. Biden's "lovableness" will not serve him well in the hustings.

 

[Luckyone]

Bernie has explained extensively how his "socialism" (which is really nothing more than just having a government which guarantees the basic human rights of its citizens, and nothing more), is different than the USSR.

What Bernie supports is the same thing that is found in Norway, Sweden, Finland, Australia and New Zealand, which is called "Compassionate Capitalism"