Antisemitism- What Should the Punishment Be?

[truthatallcost]

The US House of Representatives overwhelmingly passed resolution HR 183 today, by a margin of 407-23. The resolution once again states that antisemitism is wrong, bad, canardful, full of tropes and wrongthinks, and just don't do it youse!

But I'm left to wonder where all of this is leading to. If congress, the senate, and White House will spend weeks of its publicly paid time to create resolutions, threats, and peer pressure in order to make one of the only members of congress who doesn't take money from AIPAC bend to their will , then what else might be in store for America? Perhaps we can understand how we feel about antisemitism with a poll.

For this poll, I'll be using the US government's definition of antisemitism, and add historical references to the origin of the word 'antisemitism', as well as punishments for antisemitism world wide as possible measures we could adopt here.

On May 26, 2016, the 31 member states of the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance (IHRA), of which the United States is a member, adopted a non-legally binding “working definition” of anti-Semitism. This definition is consistent with and builds upon the information contained in the 2010 State Department definition. As a member of IHRA, the United States now uses this working definition and has encouraged other governments and international organizations to use it as well.

"Antisemitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of antisemitism are directed toward Jewish or non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and religious facilities.”

Manifestations might include the targeting of the state of Israel, conceived as a Jewish collectivity. However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic. Antisemitism frequently charges Jews with conspiring to harm humanity, and it is often used to blame Jews for “why things go wrong.” It is expressed in speech, writing, visual forms and action, and employs sinister stereotypes and negative character traits.

Contemporary examples of antisemitism in public life, the media, schools, the workplace, and in the religious sphere could, taking into account the overall context, include, but are not limited to:

• Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion.

• Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.

• Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, or even for acts committed by non-Jews.

• Denying the fact, scope, mechanisms (e.g. gas chambers) or intentionality of the genocide of the Jewish people at the hands of National Socialist Germany and its supporters and accomplices during World War II (the Holocaust

• Accusing the Jews as a people, or Israel as a state, of inventing or exaggerating the Holocaust.

• Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.

• Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.

• Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.

• Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g., claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis.

• Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.

• Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.

Defining Anti-Semitism

Origin of the word 'antisemitism'-

Anti-Semitism” came about (in its Germanic form) in the mid-nineteenth century. In 1860, an Austrian Jewish scholar, Moritz Steinschneider, introduced the term antisemitische vorurteile (anti-Semitic prejudices). He used the expression in a piece he wrote countering the ideas of French philosopher Ernest Renan, who claimed that the Semitic race was inferior to the Aryan race.

The term anti-Semitism was made common by Wilhelm Marr, a German publicist and agitator. Unfortunately, his 1879 pamphlet, “The Way to Victory of Germanism over Judaism,” in which he used the term Antisemitismus, was very popular.

Jewish Treats: The Origin of the Word Anti-Semitism

 

[truthatallcost]

* Due to the YUGE length of the modern definition of antisemitism, I wasn't able to fit my OP under 5k letters. So I'm listing one historical punishment here-

Given the prevalence of Jewish influence in the foundations of Russian communism, and the role they played in the Russian Revolution, terror campaigns, and International Comintern's attempts to create communist revolution throughout Europe, Joseph Stalin wrote in 1931:

In the U.S.S.R. anti-semitism is punishable with the utmost severity of the law as a phenomenon deeply hostile to the Soviet system. Under U.S.S.R. law active anti-semites are liable to the death penalty.

Anti-Semitism

 

[Amelia]

It depends on where the antisemitism occurs and how it is expressed.

 

[Skeptic Bob]

I got to say, I just can't take people seriously who claim it is anti-Semitic to criticize the Israeli government or express concern over the financial influence of AIPAC on our elected officials. If that is anti-Semitism then I guess that is just another word that has lost all meaning.

 

[Felis Leo]

I got to say, I just can't take people seriously who claim it is anti-Semitic to criticize the Israeli government or express concern over the financial influence of AIPAC on our elected officials. If that is anti-Semitism then I guess that is just another word that has lost all meaning.

By that same token, Skeptic Bob, one should be aware and watchful that people who do hate Jews often try to make their views more palatable by couching their initial remarks with attacks on Israel or Zionism. Not every Jew hater is an idiot. Very few people will find someone as openly outright hateful as Louis Farrakhan palatable. But if one simply replaces the statement "perfidious Jew" with "perfidious Zionist," or "money grubbing kike" with "money grubbing Israeli settler" or a yellow star with an Israeli flag, and then suddenly the hatred is given license to proceed unmolested. And I see it more often than I care to name, and the fact that people ignore it and claim that it is merely criticism of Israel so long as it is covered with a fig leaf is maddening. I can only imagine it is what civil rights activists when people shrugged their shoulders and were told "Why do you all get so bristly when people talk about states rights?"

 

[Mongidig]

You all realize that this "massive" influence of AIPAC is something like 3.5 million dollars. Compare that to the Beer industry for example who contribute about 20 million dollars. The anti semites have you under their spell!

 

[Mongidig]

By that same token, Skeptic Bob, one should be aware and watchful that people who do hate Jews often try to make their views more palatable by couching their initial remarks with attacks on Israel or Zionism. Not every Jew hater is an idiot. Very few people will find someone as openly outright hateful as Louis Farrakhan palatable. But if one simply replaces the statement "perfidious Jew" with "perfidious Zionist," or "money grubbing kike" with "money grubbing Israeli settler" or a yellow star with an Israeli flag, and then suddenly the hatred is given license to proceed unmolested. And I see it more often than I care to name, and the fact that people ignore it and claim that it is merely criticism of Israel so long as it is covered with a fig leaf is maddening. I can only imagine it is what civil rights activists when people shrugged their shoulders and were told "Why do you all get so bristly when people talk about states rights?"

That's pretty much it. Good night!

 

[Felis Leo]

The US House of Representatives overwhelmingly passed resolution HR 183 today, by a margin of 407-23. The resolution once again states that antisemitism is wrong, bad, canardful, full of tropes and wrongthinks, and just don't do it youse!

But I'm left to wonder where all of this is leading to. If congress, the senate, and White House will spend weeks of its publicly paid time to create resolutions, threats, and peer pressure in order to make one of the only members of congress who doesn't take money from AIPAC bend to their will , then what else might be in store for America? Perhaps we can understand how we feel about antisemitism with a poll.

For this poll, I'll be using the US government's definition of antisemitism, and add historical references to the origin of the word 'antisemitism', as well as punishments for antisemitism world wide as possible measures we could adopt here.



Origin of the word 'antisemitism'-

The punishment for antisemitism should be the same as the punishment for any other racist conspiracy theory: hatred, scorn and obloquy from one's peers.

 

[Skeptic Bob]

By that same token, one should be aware that people who do hate Jews often try to make their views more palatable by couching their initial remarks with attacks on Israel or Zionism. Very few people will find someone as openly outright hateful as Louis Farrakhan palatable. But if one simply replaces the statement "perfidious Jew" with "perfidious Zionist," or "money grubbing kike" with "money grubbing Israeli settler" or a yellow star with an Israeli flag, and then suddenly the hatred is given license to proceed unmolested. And I see it more often than I care to name, and the fact that people ignore it and claim that it is merely criticism of Israel is maddening. I can only imagine it is what civil rights activists when people shrugged their shoulders and were told "Why do you all get so bristly when people talk about states rights?"

Sure, but that shouldn't be assumed. I didn't assume people who criticized Obama were racist. Plenty of people DID accuse Obama's detractors of being racist, and yes, I'm sure actual racists hated Obama for racist reasons. But unless an Obama detractor expressed ACTUAL racism I didn't assume it. Likewise, I am not going to assume anti-Semitism just because someone is critical of Israel or AIPAC's financial influence.

 

[Felis Leo]

Sure, but that shouldn't be assumed. I didn't assume people who criticized Obama were racist. Plenty of people DID accuse Obama's detractors of being racist, and yes, I'm sure actual racists hated Obama for racist reasons. But unless an Obama detractor expressed ACTUAL racism I didn't assume it. Likewise, I am not going to assume anti-Semitism just because someone is critical of Israel or AIPAC's financial influence.

That is fine, and as I have said on another thread, the number of people who I have read on this debate forum who were both critical of Israel and who I believe are also antisemitic Jew-haters could be counted on the fingers of one hand. And while they are not the majority of Israel critics either here or in the Western Hemisphere, where attacking Jews directly is presently socially unacceptable, they generally try to drive conversation against Jews by proxy in attacking Israel for its treatment of Arabs or influence in American politics. I am sure we can name a few people off the top of our heads on this board who deeply hate Jews AND Israel simultaneously and create thread after thread about them endlessly.

 

[Xelor]

Jurisprudential punishment:

• None is warranted unless and until the anti-Semitic remark(s) meet one or both of the two following criteria:
  • Rise to the level whereby it can be shown probatively the speaker uttered the body of them to incite violence:
    • Actus reus --> The collection of anti-Semitic utterances
    • Mens rea --> Must be shown either explicitly or by a preponderance of evidence
  • Is an endogenous incitement of violence.
    • Actus reus --> The specific anti-Semitic utterance
    • Mens rea --> Self-evincing in the remark

Social punishment:

• Each individual may freely apply whatever penalty s/he sees fit to apply, so long at it's lawful to apply said penalty.

 

[Xelor]

From one of the quoted passages the OP-er referenced:

Contemporary examples of antisemitism in public life, the media, schools, the workplace, and in the religious sphere could, taking into account the overall context, include, but are not limited to:

1. Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion.
2. Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.
3. Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, or even for acts committed by non-Jews.
4. Denying the fact, scope, mechanisms (e.g. gas chambers) or intentionality of the genocide of the Jewish people at the hands of National Socialist Germany and its supporters and accomplices during World War II (the Holocaust
5. Accusing the Jews as a people, or Israel as a state, of inventing or exaggerating the Holocaust.
6. Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.
7. Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.
8. Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.
9. Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g., claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis.
10. Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.
11. Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.

Poster's Note: I ordered the list for convenience of discussion referencing. The same list presented in the OP is unordered.
​

My Thoughts re: certain examples:

• Number 2:
  Good luck getting non-minorities to comprehend such remarks are anti-Semitic. Recently, several blackface incidents and "N-word" utterances have shown us that even now, too many "WASPs" don't understand how stereotypes demonize and dehumanize POC. It's unlikely they'll understand it vis-a-vis Jews.
• Number 6:
  I'm not sure what makes the noted conduct/utterances be anti-Semitic. I realize that his/her Jewishness isn't a rational basis for thinking/asserting, for instance, a Jewish US citizen is indeed more loyal to Israel than to the US; such an accusation must be substantiated by one or more behaviors that rationally (inductively or deductively) evince such loyalty/disloyalty.
• Number 9:
  I wonder why the provisions expressly cite "classic" symbols of are included, yet by doing so modern, newly developed symbols are thus excluded. The example should have omitted "classic" as a qualifier. As its written, this symbology example must, in order to cover modern anti-Semitic symbols, rely on the "including, but not limited to" qualifier in the list description.
• Number 10:
  ??? If/when moderal Israel adopts tyrannical policies similar to Nazi policy and dissimilar from the vast majority of other nations/parties policies, such comparisons are apt.
• Number 11:
  Presumably this refers to Jews the world over rather than Israel's citizens who are Jews. The example needs revising so that caveat is clear.

 

[Integrityrespec]

Is the left taking us in a dangerous direction? Take a look at this communist manifesto, read into the Congressional Record back in 1963.
THE 45 COMMUNIST GOALS AS READ INTO THE CONGRESSIONAL RECORD, 1963 - Watchwoman on the Wall

 

[HumblePi]

45% of the country is either racist, xenophobic, homophobic or anti-Semitic. There's really no point trying to change anyone through fines, imprisonment or even death. There's just too many of them out there to do anything at all about.

 

[Xelor]

Off-Topic:

Insofar as Jewishness is recognized as a race/ethnicity, and insofar as "racism" is used to refer to animus attitudes against "this or that" race or ethnicity, why do we have a distinct term, "anti-Semitic," for racism against Jews?​

 

[Felis Leo]

Off-Topic:

Insofar as Jewishness is recognized as a race/ethnicity, and insofar as "racism" is used to refer to animus attitudes against "this or that" race or ethnicity, why do we have a distinct term, "anti-Semitic," for racism against Jews?​

Because, as it stands, racism generally as an ideology means that you believe certain races are inferior or superior based on certain qualities and characteristics that are inherent and inescapable to members of that race. Antisemitism is a subset of racism that refers to a set of conspiracy theories that revolve around Jews. Specifically, it refers to the ideas (1) that Jews are only loyal to their own ethno-religious tribe, (2) that in order to survive they seek to infiltrate societies and weaken them, typically by (3) controlling the levers of power through finance or political power, and (4) instigating conflicts between and among other nations for their own profit. Rarely do most forms of racism go in to such in-depth levels of fevered conspiracy theory beyond "they're a bunch of lazy, murderous rapists coming to steal our jobs!"

 

[Xelor]

I forgot to include the "comportment" section in my earlier post, so I've repeated that post and included a "comportment" section here.

Jurisprudential punishment:

• Utterances:
  • None is warranted unless and until the anti-Semitic remark(s) meet one or both of the two following criteria:
    • Rise to the level whereby it can be shown probatively the speaker uttered the body of them to incite violence:
      • Actus reus --> The collection of anti-Semitic utterances
      • Mens rea --> Must be shown either explicitly or by a preponderance of evidence
    • Is an endogenous incitement of violence.
      • Actus reus --> The specific anti-Semitic utterance
      • Mens rea --> Self-evincing in the remark
• Comportment:
  • Anti-Semitic behavior of certain types -- such as denying folks jobs, admission to organizations, loans, etc. -- should be punished with at least five years of incarceration with no option for early release.
  • Anti-Semitic behavior that comports with the criteria of hate crime laws should be punished as per the provisions of said laws.

Social punishment:

• Each individual may freely apply whatever penalty s/he sees fit to apply, so long at it's lawful to apply said penalty.

 

[Xelor]

Because, as it stands, racism generally as an ideology means that you believe certain races are inferior or superior based on certain qualities and characteristics that are inherent and inescapable to members of that race. Antisemitism is a subset of racism that refers to a set of conspiracy theories that revolve around Jews. Specifically, it refers to the ideas (1) that Jews are only loyal to their own ethno-religious tribe, (2) that in order to survive they seek to infiltrate societies and weaken them, typically by (3) controlling the levers of power through finance or political power, and (4) instigating conflicts between and among other nations for their own profit. Rarely do most forms of racism go in to such in-depth levels of fevered conspiracy theory beyond "they're a bunch of lazy, murderous rapists coming to steal our jobs!"

TY. That's at least a rational enough explanation that I'm not of a mind to doubt/refute it straight-off. I don't know if it's right, but it doesn't strain credulity so much that I think it both implausible and improbable. TY for offering a well considered answer.

In other words, it's a good enough answer that I wouldn't feel as though I'm embarrassing myself or advancing pure sophistry were I to mention it to someone, saying with the caveat that I'd heard the terms you explained but haven't confirmed their accuracy.

 

[Masterhawk]

depends how far the antisemetism goes. If it's just speech, then nothing. If it's beating up a jew, that would be assault. If lynching a jew, that's murder.

 

[RabidAlpaca]

That is fine, and as I have said on another thread, the number of people who I have read on this debate forum who were both critical of Israel and who I believe are also antisemitic Jew-haters could be counted on the fingers of one hand. And while they are not the majority of Israel critics either here or in the Western Hemisphere, where attacking Jews directly is presently socially unacceptable, they generally try to drive conversation against Jews by proxy in attacking Israel for its treatment of Arabs or influence in American politics. I am sure we can name a few people off the top of our heads on this board who deeply hate Jews AND Israel simultaneously and create thread after thread about them endlessly.

Does this mystery poster claim to want truth at any cost but actively reject truth when he finds it?

I'm glad that you clarified that the vast, vast majority of people who are critical of Israel's politics aren't anti-semites. That's quite a ridiculous trope going on peddled by the Republicans.

 

[OldFatGuy]

Off-Topic:

Insofar as Jewishness is recognized as a race/ethnicity, and insofar as "racism" is used to refer to animus attitudes against "this or that" race or ethnicity, why do we have a distinct term, "anti-Semitic," for racism against Jews?​

2000 years of oppression, torture, maiming, rape and murder.

 

[ALiberalModerate]

You all realize that this "massive" influence of AIPAC is something like 3.5 million dollars. Compare that to the Beer industry for example who contribute about 20 million dollars. The anti semites have you under their spell!

I agree that the spending by AIPAC and pro-Israel lobbies is not that high. I think all of them together are around 5.5 million or so. Where they get outside influence over U.S. policy are Evangelicals / the Religious Right. We literally have tens of millions of Americans that are regularly told in church that we are living in the end times, that all of Israel, including the West Bank and the Gaza Strip is given by God to the Jewish people, that any nation that doesn't support that will be punished by God, and that any nation that supports Israel no matter what, will be favored by God. Moreover, their premillienial dispensationalist theology should dictate U.S. foreign policy in the Middle East as certain events must occur before the rapture, the Battle of Armageddon, the subsequent acceptance of Jesus as their savior by all Jews, and the return of Jesus and a 1000 year reign.

So when people criticize the Israeli lobby, they really ought to be criticizing evangelicals lobbying and using their political power and influence to force the U.S. government to base our foreign policy on their religious beliefs.

Where Rep. Omar is completely wrong is the notion that it's Jewish money that dictates our foreign policy with Israel and the Middle East. It's not, it's evangelical money and influence that largely does.

 

[americanwoman]

The US House of Representatives overwhelmingly passed resolution HR 183 today, by a margin of 407-23. The resolution once again states that antisemitism is wrong, bad, canardful, full of tropes and wrongthinks, and just don't do it youse!

But I'm left to wonder where all of this is leading to. If congress, the senate, and White House will spend weeks of its publicly paid time to create resolutions, threats, and peer pressure in order to make one of the only members of congress who doesn't take money from AIPAC bend to their will , then what else might be in store for America? Perhaps we can understand how we feel about antisemitism with a poll.

For this poll, I'll be using the US government's definition of antisemitism, and add historical references to the origin of the word 'antisemitism', as well as punishments for antisemitism world wide as possible measures we could adopt here.



Origin of the word 'antisemitism'-

What should your punishment be:

https://www.debatepolitics.com/nort...sing-slum-lords-names.html?highlight=landlord

 

[Moderate Right]

I got to say, I just can't take people seriously who claim it is anti-Semitic to criticize the Israeli government or express concern over the financial influence of AIPAC on our elected officials. If that is anti-Semitism then I guess that is just another word that has lost all meaning.

But why aren't the MSM shoving a mike in front of her face and asking her if she thinks Israel as a right to exist?

 

[HiVeeder]

We can't give a punishment. The day COngress tries to punish for beliefs is the day people will stop coming to them with their concerns. It's the First Amendment that blocks us.

Now, don't get me wrong. I hate Anti-Semitics, but they are still allowed to believe in what they believe. That is a basic right that we cannot deny no matter how much we hate it.