Antisemitism- What Should the Punishment Be?

[What if...?]

The US House of Representatives overwhelmingly passed resolution HR 183 today, by a margin of 407-23. The resolution once again states that antisemitism is wrong, bad, canardful, full of tropes and wrongthinks, and just don't do it youse!

But I'm left to wonder where all of this is leading to. If congress, the senate, and White House will spend weeks of its publicly paid time to create resolutions, threats, and peer pressure in order to make one of the only members of congress who doesn't take money from AIPAC bend to their will , then what else might be in store for America? Perhaps we can understand how we feel about antisemitism with a poll.

For this poll, I'll be using the US government's definition of antisemitism, and add historical references to the origin of the word 'antisemitism', as well as punishments for antisemitism world wide as possible measures we could adopt here.



Origin of the word 'antisemitism'-

"However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot he labled antisemitic."

/thread.

 

[What if...?]

By that same token, Skeptic Bob, one should be aware and watchful that people who do hate Jews often try to make their views more palatable by couching their initial remarks with attacks on Israel or Zionism. Not every Jew hater is an idiot. Very few people will find someone as openly outright hateful as Louis Farrakhan palatable. But if one simply replaces the statement "perfidious Jew" with "perfidious Zionist," or "money grubbing kike" with "money grubbing Israeli settler" or a yellow star with an Israeli flag, and then suddenly the hatred is given license to proceed unmolested. And I see it more often than I care to name, and the fact that people ignore it and claim that it is merely criticism of Israel so long as it is covered with a fig leaf is maddening. I can only imagine it is what civil rights activists when people shrugged their shoulders and were told "Why do you all get so bristly when people talk about states rights?"

Blanket claims of antisemitism for all actions of Israel is actually antisemitism itself, as it presumes that the behavior is a result of Jewish genetics and not just state behavior.

You'll notice the official definition specifically precludes labeling as antisemitic criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against other states.

 

[What if...?]

You all realize that this "massive" influence of AIPAC is something like 3.5 million dollars. Compare that to the Beer industry for example who contribute about 20 million dollars. The anti semites have you under their spell!

It could just he they don't need to spend more for two reasons.

Not supporting Israel in all things is "antisemitism" and the religious right staunchly supports Israel already so Jesus can come back.

 

[DaveFagan]

Blanket claims of antisemitism for all actions of Israel is actually antisemitism itself, as it presumes that the behavior is a result of Jewish genetics and not just state behavior.

You'll notice the official definition specifically precludes labeling as antisemitic criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against other states.

Just an example. If I harbor any animosity against Israel, it has zip, zero, nada to do with genetics. I think that is the case for most people.
/

 

[MrWonka]

For this poll, I'll be using the US government's definition of antisemitism

Anti-Semitism is simply negative prejudice against an individual or group based entirely on the fact that they are Jewish.

Nothing that I have heard from Representative Omar qualifies as that.

Israel is a country. It has elected leaders. Criticism of those leaders and their decisions do not qualify as Anti-Semitism. Particularly when you consider that their current president is being charged with corruption and the UN still recognizes their claim to certain Palestinian territory as an illegal occupation.

AIPAC is a lobbying group which lobbies American Politicians on behave of a foreign nation. I could be wrong, but I don't believe any other such lobbying group for any other nation on earth would be tolerated in the United States. I'm not necessarily suggesting they need to be disbanded, but clearly, it would be unacceptable for an American Politician to be putting the best interests of Israel ahead of the best interests of America. As Israel is our ally I would hope there would be few if any instances where that would be necessary, but if there is evidence of that happening I would say it is clearly deserving of scrutiny and criticism.

I wouldn't say that I agree with much of what Rep. Omar said, but it certainly doesn't qualify as hate speech or anti-Semitism, and there is no rational reason any type of resolution denouncing it at this point needed passing. Anybody attempting to compare what she said to what Steve King said is delusional.

Now, that all being said. What is the punishment for real Anti-Semitism? It would be the same as the punishment for any other form of Racism. If it's advocated for by a sitting politician they should resign, and if they refuse they should be censured, and have any important committee assignments removed. I would hope then that their constituents would vote them out in the next go around.

If it's advocated for by an ordinary citizen they should be told to go to hell, and they should find it very difficult to obtain legitimate employment. No specific legal actions should be taken against them if all they are doing is speaking, however. If someone physically attacks them for what they said that person should be arrested, however, I would not support any significant sentence against the person. Certainly not compared to almost any other form of physical assault.

 

[What if...?]

From one of the quoted passages the OP-er referenced:

Contemporary examples of antisemitism in public life, the media, schools, the workplace, and in the religious sphere could, taking into account the overall context, include, but are not limited to:

1. Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion.
2. Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.
3. Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, or even for acts committed by non-Jews.
4. Denying the fact, scope, mechanisms (e.g. gas chambers) or intentionality of the genocide of the Jewish people at the hands of National Socialist Germany and its supporters and accomplices during World War II (the Holocaust
5. Accusing the Jews as a people, or Israel as a state, of inventing or exaggerating the Holocaust.
6. Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.
7. Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.
8. Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.
9. Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g., claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis.
10. Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.
11. Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.

Poster's Note: I ordered the list for convenience of discussion referencing. The same list presented in the OP is unordered.
​

My Thoughts re: certain examples:

• Number 2:
  Good luck getting non-minorities to comprehend such remarks are anti-Semitic. Recently, several blackface incidents and "N-word" utterances have shown us that even now, too many "WASPs" don't understand how stereotypes demonize and dehumanize POC. It's unlikely they'll understand it vis-a-vis Jews.
• Number 6:
  I'm not sure what makes the noted conduct/utterances be anti-Semitic. I realize that his/her Jewishness isn't a rational basis for thinking/asserting, for instance, a Jewish US citizen is indeed more loyal to Israel than to the US; such an accusation must be substantiated by one or more behaviors that rationally (inductively or deductively) evince such loyalty/disloyalty.
• Number 9:
  I wonder why the provisions expressly cite "classic" symbols of are included, yet by doing so modern, newly developed symbols are thus excluded. The example should have omitted "classic" as a qualifier. As its written, this symbology example must, in order to cover modern anti-Semitic symbols, rely on the "including, but not limited to" qualifier in the list description.
• Number 10:
  ??? If/when moderal Israel adopts tyrannical policies similar to Nazi policy and dissimilar from the vast majority of other nations/parties policies, such comparisons are apt.
• Number 11:
  Presumably this refers to Jews the world over rather than Israel's citizens who are Jews. The example needs revising so that caveat is clear.

#7.While I don't think it rises to a situation where self determination should be at risk, establishing a permanent Jewish majority where one is already outnumbered by others who reproduce at a higher rate does result in policies based on race, making it a "racist" situation by definition.

 

[What if...?]

Off-Topic:

Insofar as Jewishness is recognized as a race/ethnicity, and insofar as "racism" is used to refer to animus attitudes against "this or that" race or ethnicity, why do we have a distinct term, "anti-Semitic," for racism against Jews?​

Emotional weight.

 

[What if...?]

Because, as it stands, racism generally as an ideology means that you believe certain races are inferior or superior based on certain qualities and characteristics that are inherent and inescapable to members of that race. Antisemitism is a subset of racism that refers to a set of conspiracy theories that revolve around Jews. Specifically, it refers to the ideas (1) that Jews are only loyal to their own ethno-religious tribe, (2) that in order to survive they seek to infiltrate societies and weaken them, typically by (3) controlling the levers of power through finance or political power, and (4) instigating conflicts between and among other nations for their own profit. Rarely do most forms of racism go in to such in-depth levels of fevered conspiracy theory beyond "they're a bunch of lazy, murderous rapists coming to steal our jobs!"

The living "among but apart" think adopted by diaspora Jews to maintain a cohesive group clearly resulted in problems for them. Scapegoating them became much easier.

And the "propaganda" they applied to their kids to keep them from interbreeding with the goyim didn't help either. Because it was "we are better than them. Don't degrade yourselves." Which created an unearned sense of superiority in their culture going forward.

(I know this will piss some of you off. But some of you are Jewish or know Jews well and you know what I'm talking about. There's an arrogance that comes with being the "chosen of God" that people resent.)

 

[Vadinho]

Sorry but we have the freedom to be a racist, anti-semite and even a Trump supporter. No penalty.

 

[What if...?]

What should your punishment be:

https://www.debatepolitics.com/nort...sing-slum-lords-names.html?highlight=landlord

Ouch! That's gonna leave a mark!

 

[Geoist]

I got to say, I just can't take people seriously who claim it is anti-Semitic to criticize the Israeli government or express concern over the financial influence of AIPAC on our elected officials. If that is anti-Semitism then I guess that is just another word that has lost all meaning.

BINGO.

It would be like those on the left who dismiss any criticism of Jesse Jackson as 'racist.'

 

[OlNate]

That is fine, and as I have said on another thread, the number of people who I have read on this debate forum who were both critical of Israel and who I believe are also antisemitic Jew-haters could be counted on the fingers of one hand. And while they are not the majority of Israel critics either here or in the Western Hemisphere, where attacking Jews directly is presently socially unacceptable, they generally try to drive conversation against Jews by proxy in attacking Israel for its treatment of Arabs or influence in American politics. I am sure we can name a few people off the top of our heads on this board who deeply hate Jews AND Israel simultaneously and create thread after thread about them endlessly.

To interject...I find your disclaimer troubling. "Some people may legitimately criticize group A, but others hide behind that legitimate criticism in order to spread their hate" is a wonderful way to dilute legitimate criticism. It also discourages it.

The reality is that any criticism may have less than noble reasons behind the criticism. Why do we not hear "We must be careful when considering criticism of Saudi Arabia, it could be Islamophobes", or "We must be careful when considering criticism of the General Idi Amin Dada regime, because there's a lot of people who are racists against black people", or "We much be careful when considering criticism of Cuba, because there are a lot of people who hate brown people"? We know in all of these cases, present day or historical scrutiny is aimed at a government or a dictator specifically, not the entire race or religion or demographic. How did the Israeli government get this special consideration?

I criticize the decisions of the Israeli government regularly. Not because I hate Jews, but because the plight of Israeli Jews and Muslim Palestinians alike are driven by the terrible decisions of their "leadership" on BOTH sides. Is that an anti Semitic sentiment?

 

[Xelor]

Off-Topic:

Insofar as Jewishness is recognized as a race/ethnicity, and insofar as "racism" is used to refer to animus attitudes against "this or that" race or ethnicity, why do we have a distinct term, "anti-Semitic," for racism against Jews?​

Because, as it stands, racism generally as an ideology means that you believe certain races are inferior or superior based on certain qualities and characteristics that are inherent and inescapable to members of that race. Antisemitism is a subset of racism that refers to a set of conspiracy theories that revolve around Jews. Specifically, it refers to the ideas (1) that Jews are only loyal to their own ethno-religious tribe, (2) that in order to survive they seek to infiltrate societies and weaken them, typically by (3) controlling the levers of power through finance or political power, and (4) instigating conflicts between and among other nations for their own profit. Rarely do most forms of racism go in to such in-depth levels of fevered conspiracy theory beyond "they're a bunch of lazy, murderous rapists coming to steal our jobs!"

The living "among but apart" think adopted by diaspora Jews to maintain a cohesive group clearly resulted in problems for them. Scapegoating them became much easier.

And the "propaganda" they applied to their kids to keep them from interbreeding with the goyim didn't help either. Because it was "we are better than them. Don't degrade yourselves." Which created an unearned sense of superiority in their culture going forward.

(I know this will piss some of you off. But some of you are Jewish or know Jews well and you know what I'm talking about. There's an arrogance that comes with being the "chosen of God" that people resent.)

Red:
I call that "theism," not "racism." Few and far between are theists who don't think they're "better" due to the theology to which they claim to ascribe.

I posed the question I did because:

1. I think of race as evinced by one's appearance. Thus to me, if one looks like a Caucasian-descended, Sub-Saharan-African-descended, Far-East-Asian-descended, or some mix thereof, then, sociologically, as opposed to biologically, that's what one's race is. Do biological and sociological classifications need to align for any given individual? No, because race is used differently in genetics than it is "on the street," the "street" use existing for tribal oppression or adulation.
2. I think of ethnicity as a set of cultural commonalities a group of people share. The culture may or may not coincide with biological or sociological race. Thus all Americans are ethnically American. Similarly, a Caucasian raised in Masai culture is ethnically Masaian and more duly Masai than any person, no matter their race, not raised in Masai culture. Thus while I see ethnicity as preponderantly coincident with something, that something may or may not be biological race, which predates civilization.
3. Ashkenazim (AJs) descended from four Near Eastern women, thus giving AJs ~2000 years of genetic legacy; however, I recognize that AJs who suffer from oppression do so because they also cleave to an ~3500 year-old cultural tradition, Judaism[SUP]1[/SUP], that pervades all aspects of AJ life. AJs, then, seem to me bound mostly by a non-obvious quality that, unless an AJ announces it, makes AJs outwardly indistinguishable among Caucasians.
4. AJs aren't, however, the only Jews, and Jews recognize three other major classes: Sephardic, Mizrahi, and Ethiopian. What seems to distinguish the AJs from the rest is geography and AJs being located in regions that were eco-politically important to the non-Jews who held governmental sway and AJs seem, in the name of their god, to have been political rabble rousers whom governing authorities saw, given that Jews comprised about 10% of the polity, as a potentially insurrectionist sect they didn't want to accord a material political foothold. (Jews didn't work on the Sabbath, which likely further irked myriad ancient proprietors in a time when one worked everyday.)

Because of the above, I tend to think of AJs as white folks who happen to be white folks who've been persecuted, for as long as white folks have ruled the Western world, by non-Jewish white folks, and who've been despised not for their race but for their religion.


Note:

1. When did Judaism divest itself of the other gods Jews apparently worshiped before they became monotheists? I don't know exactly. It appears that in 8th century BC, Yahweh was married to a goddess named Asherah; thus it must have been after that.

 

[truthatallcost]

What should your punishment be:

https://www.debatepolitics.com/nort...sing-slum-lords-names.html?highlight=landlord

Thanks for demonstrating the Stockholm syndrome I've witnessed since becoming woke on this issue. You read my OP from that thread about people who choose to operate as slumlords, which directly effects POC negatively, and hand waved all that away to focus instead on me calling attention to it.

 

[truthatallcost]

You all realize that this "massive" influence of AIPAC is something like 3.5 million dollars. Compare that to the Beer industry for example who contribute about 20 million dollars. The anti semites have you under their spell!

That's irrelevant. The top individual donors, virtually all of whom are pro-Israel, spend enormous sums influencing both Republicans and Democrats.

1. Sheldon Adelson, Jewish- $123,220,100, all to Republicans. Pro-Israel.
2. Michael Bloomberg, Jewish - $90,538,315, all to Democrats. Pro-Israel.
3. Thomas Steyer, Jewish- $70,916,049 all to Democrats. Pro-Israel.
4. Richard Uihlein, German American - $39,388,729 all to Republicans. Contributes to pro-Israel Republicans.
5. Donald Sussman, Jewish- $24,738,200, all to Democrats. Pro-Israel.

These are the men who determine which policies your President, Senators and Congressmen endorse or oppose. That is the reality of things.

Top Individual Contributors: All Federal Contributions | OpenSecrets

Virtually all money that flows into politics comes from pro-Israel sources.

 

[truthatallcost]

The punishment for antisemitism should be the same as the punishment for any other racist conspiracy theory: hatred, scorn and obloquy from one's peers.

1. There's simply no 'conspiracy theory' involved in relating facts. Such as;

• 51% of financial contributions to the DNC come from Jewish sources
• George Soros spends millions of dollars a year, to move countries towards progressive policies on immigration, abortion, etc
• Jared Kushner lobbied Michael Flynn to attempt to meddle in a UN vote, in order to benefit Israel, which should call Kushner's loyalty into question

Which of the scenarios I've mentioned are still in the theoretic phase? None AFAIK.

2. You're proposing directing "hatred, scorn and obloquy from one's peers" towards someone who relates truths. That doesn't bother you?

 

[Bullseye]

Life in prison with no bagels sounds about right.

 

[truthatallcost]

"However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot he labled antisemitic."

/thread.

Which doesn't exist period in the media. CNN runs around with their hair on fire squawking about Russia, while Israel meddles in voting processes, conducts spy rings to create dossiers on average Americans, and sells our weapons technology to Russia. The fairytale of Israel being our ally, solely based upon 'not being as bad as those darn Arabs', is baffling.

 

[Felis Leo]

1. There's simply no 'conspiracy theory' involved in relating facts. Such as;

• 51% of financial contributions to the DNC come from Jewish sources
• George Soros spends millions of dollars a year, to move countries towards progressive policies on immigration, abortion, etc
• Jared Kushner lobbied Michael Flynn to attempt to meddle in a UN vote, in order to benefit Israel, which should call Kushner's loyalty into question

Which of the scenarios I've mentioned are still in the theoretic phase? None AFAIK.

2. You're proposing directing "hatred, scorn and obloquy from one's peers" towards someone who relates truths. That doesn't bother you?

You are not a purveyor of truth, truthatllcost. You are the purveyor of a narrative, for which when the truth happens to be on your side, it is for you a happy accident, and when it goes against you, you will ignore it as do most conspiracy theorists, whether racist or non-racist. You are attempting to spread hatred of Jews, under poorly-disguised anti-Israel criticism. Your fig leaf has long since fallen off. No need to hide. You plainly hate Jews, as well as most non-white people, but you are willing to ally with anyone, including someone like you would hate for being an alien non-white like Ilhan Omar. But because she despises Jews for slightly different reasons, you appear to be willing to give her a pass until such time as she has outlived her usefulness to you.

That is why you should be subject to the scorn, hatred and obloquy of your peers. Not because you tell the truth, but because you do not care about the truth. Because you are a hateful throwback to whom the world has since moved past. When you gain a sense of grace and learn that blood is not inextricably linked to culture, perhaps we can have more productive conversations about how to make this country a better place for everyone in it, without making it Judenfrei.

 

[bongsaway]

If I decide to 'hate' a group of people but only do it inside of myself, who cares? When it spills over into violence or marches meant to incite violence, that's going to far. People with nazi flags carrying torches and chanting jews will not replace us, to jail they go. We do not need that kind of free speech in america. If I were to start writing all over the internet I was planning on doing the president harm, how long until the feds rightfully showed up at my residence? People today are so angry and most don't even know why other than they feel stuck.

 

[Mongidig]

Anti-Semitism is simply negative prejudice against an individual or group based entirely on the fact that they are Jewish.

Nothing that I have heard from Representative Omar qualifies as that.

Israel is a country. It has elected leaders. Criticism of those leaders and their decisions do not qualify as Anti-Semitism. Particularly when you consider that their current president is being charged with corruption and the UN still recognizes their claim to certain Palestinian territory as an illegal occupation.

AIPAC is a lobbying group which lobbies American Politicians on behave of a foreign nation. I could be wrong, but I don't believe any other such lobbying group for any other nation on earth would be tolerated in the United States. I'm not necessarily suggesting they need to be disbanded, but clearly, it would be unacceptable for an American Politician to be putting the best interests of Israel ahead of the best interests of America. As Israel is our ally I would hope there would be few if any instances where that would be necessary, but if there is evidence of that happening I would say it is clearly deserving of scrutiny and criticism.

I wouldn't say that I agree with much of what Rep. Omar said, but it certainly doesn't qualify as hate speech or anti-Semitism, and there is no rational reason any type of resolution denouncing it at this point needed passing. Anybody attempting to compare what she said to what Steve King said is delusional.

Now, that all being said. What is the punishment for real Anti-Semitism? It would be the same as the punishment for any other form of Racism. If it's advocated for by a sitting politician they should resign, and if they refuse they should be censured, and have any important committee assignments removed. I would hope then that their constituents would vote them out in the next go around.

If it's advocated for by an ordinary citizen they should be told to go to hell, and they should find it very difficult to obtain legitimate employment. No specific legal actions should be taken against them if all they are doing is speaking, however. If someone physically attacks them for what they said that person should be arrested, however, I would not support any significant sentence against the person. Certainly not compared to almost any other form of physical assault.

Omar is an anti-semite period. It not something you can debate. I know you all are trying hard to be members of the DNSP.

 

[truthatallcost]

You are not a purveyor of truth, truthatllcost.

I just relayed 3 truths to you, in order to gauge your reaction. Notice that I didn't include blanket statements about Jewish people, but rather I named individual deeds. Antisemites, to my thinking, are people who go around saying things such as 'Jews are fill in the blank with stereotype. I try not to do that, unless I'm joking. I am a purveyor of truth, not only when it fits my agenda. Think about that.

You are the purveyor of a narrative, for which when the truth happens to be on your side, it is for you a happy accident, and when it goes against you, you will ignore it as do most conspiracy theorists, whether racist or non-racist.

That's nonsense.

You are attempting to spread hatred of Jews, under poorly-disguised anti-Israel criticism. Your fig leaf has long since fallen off. No need to hide. You plainly hate Jews, as well as most non-white people, but you are willing to ally with anyone, including someone like you would hate for being an alien non-white like Ilhan Omar. But because she despises Jews for slightly different reasons, you appear to be willing to give her a pass until such time as she has outlived her usefulness to you.

You're misattributing Leon Trotsky's invention of using minorities as a wedge against the majority, for personal or political gain. One of the problems with guys like you is that you're either unaware of history, or in denial of it. Trotsky himself was a racist, as was Karl Marx, but their invention of using minorities to inflict damage upon their enemy stands firm today. They invented the strategy, and others unwittingly picked up the torch by buying into such unproven slogans like 'diversity is our strength'.

That is why you should be subject to the scorn, hatred and obloquy of your peers. Not because you tell the truth, but because you do not care about the truth. Because you are a hateful throwback to whom the world has since moved past.

Where's your outrage for the 142 hate crimes involving violence perpetrated againsr Jews in NYC last year, by non-whites? You couldn't summon enough scorn or hatred to make mention of them, I'm assuming.

When you gain a sense of grace and learn that blood is not inextricably linked to culture, perhaps we can have more productive conversations about how to make this country a better place for everyone in it, without making it Judenfrei.

You really don't see what's going on? The NYT hired an editor who Tweeted about her anticipation for the coming extinction of white people, which garnered a congratulatory Tweet from so-called conservative commenter Ben Shapiro. Shapiro's audience is mostly made up of white, conservative Christians who support him financially, while he apparently supports a woman cheering for their deaths.

You are the one who seems stuck in another era Felis Leo, with all due respect. I've considered you one of the better posters on DP since you joined, but on this issue you are in denial I'm afraid. I don't hate you for it though however.

 

[truthatallcost]

Wow, loss of bagel privilege may take 1st place. I wasn't expecting that when I created the poll options.

 

[MrWonka]

Omar is an anti-semite period. It not something you can debate.

Sorry, but anyone who supports Cheeto Mussolini isn't qualified to lecture anybody else on what hate speech is. Racism or Anti-Religious Hate needs to be directed at a race or religion not a country, a lobbying group, or the politicians accepting money from that lobbying group.

 

[Integrityrespec]

Freedom of speech protects a lot of dumb things that get said and that's ok. It's when those things are driving policy that they become dangerous. Our elected officials should work harder at keeping an even tone in politics and policy. Unfortunately they don't, it's all politics because the only thing that seems to matter to most is getting reelected and keeping their sweet job. Congress should do a much better job of holding its own accountable, they do not because they need to keep the votes for their silly partisan fights.
Its' definitely time for term limits. The american general public doesn't seem to keep up with the chaos that is day to day in the halls of Congress.