Should transwomen be legally treated as women?[W:165,1392]

[Absentglare]

Lol... I could prove you wrong by shifting the bold to the spots of the definitions you chose to ignore.

Oh, and btw... They are now teaching kids in grade school to not use gender terms, like "boy" or "girl".

And regardless, perception does not change reality. A person on acid perceives the ability to fly, and so jumps out the window, reality sees that situation not ending well.

You don't seem to understand what the word "prove" means.

Gender describes the public appearance side of a complex phenomenon that may generally be enlightened by sexual anatomy. Social roles. Your haircut. Your clothes. Your mannerisms. Your secondary sex characteristics. The perception is the reality even if you don't intimately understand how that works.

I can't even pretend to care that public schools do not emphasize the differences between boys and girls the way they did a century ago.

 

[Absentglare]

Ya, on this topic, it's a real frustration... I have a few friends that are gay or lesbian, and I truly do not care, they are good people.

However, the leaders of the every letter but H(etero) crowd are pushing beyond the concept of tolerance / acceptance into areas that are crossing into pedophelia, and a distortion of... Let's say traditional sexuality.

It's one thing to have people accept people for who they are, yet, they are intolerant of others who do not follow their beliefs, and that is where I must comment, or things will just continue into the realm of absurdity.

It's also truly frustrating because there are so many much more pertinent issues to discuss...

Pedophelia...? Is this serious?

Asking that you let someone who walks, talks, and looks like a woman be referred to as a woman is the same thing as sexualization of minors ?

Why is it that people whine about how intolerant society is of arbitrarily discriminatory intolerance ? Hating someone who hates black people because they hate black people is completely different than hating black people because of racial prejudice. Further, intolerance of intolerance rarely takes the form of hatred; more commonly disrespect, disdain, and criticism.

 

[Absentglare]

I had gay friends in the past but moved away and they were good friends. I was made an honorary gay person (in jest) because I was one of the few straight guys that would go to openly gay parties... they were fun. New Years and Oscar parties. I could literally care less who identifies as what. I care that people are kind, pay their taxes, help old ladies to their car with grocery's, etc. That said, understanding that a man that thinks/feels he is a woman is still actually a man is not rude. I am not yelling at Renae here "you are a ****ing man! Deal with it!" and never would. Absent glare can't differentiate between a debate over facts and being rude. If a person thinks the Earth is flat I will debate it. In RL I would never mock that person or even debate them, in all honesty. No point plus it would be mean but THIS IS A DEBATE SITE and Absent Glare and some others CAN'T SEEM TO GRASP THE DISTINCTION!!! ARGH!!!

You're accusing me of being unable to make the distinction between having a debate over facts and being rude ?

I don't feel like you're using facts, at least not to make your argument. You're stating unfounded conclusions.

 

[BmanMcfly]

Pedophelia...? Is this serious?

Asking that you let someone who walks, talks, and looks like a woman be referred to as a woman is the same thing as sexualization of minors ?

Why is it that people whine about how intolerant society is of arbitrarily discriminatory intolerance ? Hating someone who hates black people because they hate black people is completely different than hating black people because of racial prejudice. Further, intolerance of intolerance rarely takes the form of hatred; more commonly disrespect, disdain, and criticism.

Yes, pedophilia. Look up the controversy of the teacher that brought the students 11-12 years old to a sex shop for sex Ed. That's was in line with the lgbtqia agenda, and groups supported... The parents were pissed, first, because there was no permission slip, and yes, introducing children to sex can be deemed pedophilic.

It's not the same thing, but they are linked in ways you probably will not want to admit.

For example, you may or may not be aware, in DSM-5, pedophilia was acknowledged as being a sexual orientation, that was until groups of outraged individuals, primarily professionals in that capacity, protested that determination and the Manual was modified.

Oh, and btw, I don't discriminate, I could care less about what a person wants sexually... That doesn't affect me, unless I were trying to be in that group for woman, much less now, being married and all. (Oh, and btw, are you going to ignore those that have tried to slur me for walking down the street being referred to as "f@@@@@ng breeders"?, with probably more hatred than I've ever seen or heard anyone called n@@@@@r..., not counting movies /tv)

This wouldn't be the issue it is if the trans people were not so eager to force the issue so strongly.

 

[Absentglare]

Yes, pedophilia. Look up the controversy of the teacher that brought the students 11-12 years old to a sex shop for sex Ed. That's was in line with the lgbtqia agenda, and groups supported... The parents were pissed, first, because there was no permission slip, and yes, introducing children to sex can be deemed pedophilic.

It's not the same thing, but they are linked in ways you probably will not want to admit.

For example, you may or may not be aware, in DSM-5, pedophilia was acknowledged as being a sexual orientation, that was until groups of outraged individuals, primarily professionals in that capacity, protested that determination and the Manual was modified.

Oh, and btw, I don't discriminate, I could care less about what a person wants sexually... That doesn't affect me, unless I were trying to be in that group for woman, much less now, being married and all. (Oh, and btw, are you going to ignore those that have tried to slur me for walking down the street being referred to as "f@@@@@ng breeders"?, with probably more hatred than I've ever seen or heard anyone called n@@@@@r..., not counting movies /tv)

This wouldn't be the issue it is if the trans people were not so eager to force the issue so strongly.

Sex ed is not pedophelia.

Even a sex shop is not pedophelia.

Some LGBT community being in favor of something doesn't make it a unanimous view shared by all trans*. This is just using very limited exposure to make a judgement. This makes it qualify as judgement for the LGBT community that explicitly endorsed the behavior, but prejudice for all other trans* for you to extend purely by association.

If you say "you can't change your gender," you're engaged in discrimination ie you are distinguishing trans* from being men or women (apparently you think they are always the gender associated with the genitalia they were born with or that they're simply neither gender ?).

If some trans* have hated on you, well sure that's not a good thing, presuming you did nothing to merit such a response. Still, one Iraqi chanting "Death to America!" is just a terrible reason to exterminate or oppress all Iraqis. You could try to understand how a reasonable, rational person could be in that trans* shoes, calling you a breeder. Look how unable these people are to accept trans*, did you appreciate having your lifestyle insulted by a small minority? Try to imagine how it feels to receive that attitude from a sizable majority.

Force the issue ? I feel like all they want is basic human respect even if their gender is unusual and/or confusing... Is that too much to ask ?

 

[phattonez]

Pedophelia...? Is this serious?

Yes it is.

Born This Way: Sympathy and Science for Those Who Want to Have Sex with Children

 

[Absentglare]

Yes it is.

Born This Way: Sympathy and Science for Those Who Want to Have Sex with Children

And what does this have in common with trans*? What? You don't like them ? They both use the word "tolerance"?

I don't like Hitler's views. I don't like your views. You both used the word "people". Therefore, you're Hitler. Does this perverted logic fit reality in any meaningful way???

Absolutely not. Do not equivocate pedophilia with the trans* movement. It's laughably stupid.

 

[phattonez]

And what does this have in common with trans*? What? You don't like them ? They both use the word "tolerance"?

I don't like Hitler's views. I don't like your views. You both used the word "people". Therefore, you're Hitler. Does this perverted logic fit reality in any meaningful way???

Absolutely not. Do not equivocate pedophilia with the trans* movement. It's laughably stupid.

This is what this sexual liberation/progressive movement is leading to. The arguments against certain acts become less and less convincing once you've accepted the premises of the sexual liberation movement.

 

[Absentglare]

This is what this sexual liberation/progressive movement is leading to. The arguments against certain acts become less and less convincing once you've accepted the premises of the sexual liberation movement.

Then you are against this sexual liberation movement and not necessarily the trans* movement.

I can't very well blame President Bush for what Rush Limbaugh said even if i arbitrarily lump them together.

 

[Bodi]

You're accusing me of being unable to make the distinction between having a debate over facts and being rude ?

I don't feel like you're using facts, at least not to make your argument. You're stating unfounded conclusions.

You are accusing me of being rude whether or not I am using facts... your position is one huge miserable pail of Appeal to Emotion FAIL.

 

[Absentglare]

You are accusing me of being rude whether or not I am using facts... your position is one huge miserable pail of Appeal to Emotion FAIL.

Can you please answer my question- are you accusing me of being unable to distinguish debate from rudeness ?

I obviously don't believe that i am. I did not mean to go out of my way to discomfort you. However, i feel no compulsion to sugar coat criticism of what i consider to be a dated, traditionalist description of "gender" that i consider an affront to good people who i know personally.

 

[Bodi]

Can you please answer my question- are you accusing me of being unable to distinguish debate from rudeness ?

I just did but more clearly yes, I am accusing you of just that. I have repeatedly made arguments with facts and you repeatedly have called me ignorant and rude.

How is that not completely and immediately obvious?

I obviously don't believe that i am. I did not mean to go out of my way to discomfort you. .

You do not discomfort me at all. You are a rude person that attacks those that disagree with you. I could really care less other than to point it out.

However, i feel no compulsion to sugar coat criticism of what i consider to be a dated, traditionalist description of "gender" that i consider an affront to good people who i know personally

I have repeatedly said that people are free to feel whatever they like and that this in no way makes them good or bad but you repeatedly counter that not calling them what they want is rude. Well, a person that is 3'8" in heigth and wants be labelled "tall". The little person is not "tall" and calling him little or short is not rude, it is just a fact. Fact is that a man is a man and a woman is a woman unless they have multi-physical characteristics. Gender is different. That is how people feel. How people feel has nothing to do with how things actually and factually are. Just deal with it because you literally have no moral high-ground on this issue.

 

[Absentglare]

Should transwomen be legally treated as women?[W:165]

I just did but more clearly yes, I am accusing you of just that. I have repeatedly made arguments with facts and you repeatedly have called me ignorant and rude.

How is that not completely and immediately obvious?



You do not discomfort me at all. You are a rude person that attacks those that disagree with you. I could really care less other than to point it out.



I have repeatedly said that people are free to feel whatever they like and that this in no way makes them good or bad but you repeatedly counter that not calling them what they want is rude. Well, a person that is 3'8" in heigth and wants be labelled "tall". The little person is not "tall" and calling him little or short is not rude, it is just a fact. Fact is that a man is a man and a woman is a woman unless they have multi-physical characteristics. Gender is different. That is how people feel. How people feel has nothing to do with how things actually and factually are. Just deal with it because you literally have no moral high-ground on this issue.

I don't believe that i was calling you ignorant and/or rude. I think it is completely fair for me to point out when your views are ignorant and/or rude.

You conclude that i'm a "rude person that attacks those that disagree with you,"- that is actually you insulting who i am as a person rather than criticizing my beliefs and giving my personal character the benefit of the doubt. So it sounds like you may be guilty of your own accusation.

If you can care less, then that means you care. I expect what you mean is that you cannot care less, which is trivially false because, let's face it, if you cared less, you wouldn't bother to respond.

I don't get pleasure or have as a goal "insult that guy," so far as i'm aware. I am not patient with what i consider to be elective ignorance.

I don't think you should always be forced to call people whatever they want to be called. I don't think i ever said that. I think it's basic courtesy to do so, but force is not appropriate.

My point is that you should base your pronoun usage on perception, how they present their gender, rather than what genitalia you speculate they possess. It is generally considered rude to call a fat woman "pregnant", or to call a manly woman a "man", or to call a feminine man a "girl". Do you disagree with this assessment ?

 

[Bodi]

I don't believe that i was calling you ignorant and/or rude. I think it is completely fair for me to point out when your views are ignorant and/or rude.

You conclude that i'm a "rude person that attacks those that disagree with you,"- that is actually you insulting who i am as a person rather than criticizing my beliefs and giving my personal character the benefit of the doubt. So it sounds like you may be guilty of your own accusation.

If you can care less, then that means you care. I expect what you mean is that you cannot care less, which is trivially false because, let's face it, if you cared less, you wouldn't bother to respond.

I don't get pleasure or have as a goal "insult that guy," so far as i'm aware. I am not patient with what i consider to be elective ignorance.

I don't think you should always be forced to call people whatever they want to be called. I don't think i ever said that. I think it's basic courtesy to do so, but force is not appropriate.

My point is that you should base your pronoun usage on perception, how they present their gender, rather than what genitalia you speculate they possess. It is generally considered rude to call a fat woman "pregnant", or to call a manly woman a "man", or to call a feminine man a "girl". Do you disagree with this assessment ?

Yes I disagree with the prenant lady one. Asking if a fat woman is pregnant is not rude. It just makes the lady in question embarrassed at being fat. Being rude requires intent.

Calling a girlie man a girl is rude but who does that, not to mention it is a straw man.

You are calling me rude when you call my views rude unless you think that the person expressing their views is unaware of what they are thinking and saying and because you call my views, and consequently me, rude, you are being rude. You are attacking me and my views. I have done nothing to you... at least not prior to your attacks.

I could care less... that is what I meant and evidenced by the fact that I stated that cared enough to point it out but nothing further on that topic.

 

[phattonez]

Then you are against this sexual liberation movement and not necessarily the trans* movement.

I can't very well blame President Bush for what Rush Limbaugh said even if i arbitrarily lump them together.

The trans movement depends on the sexual liberation movement. Without sexual liberation trans gender ideology makes no sense.

 

[BmanMcfly]

Sex ed is not pedophelia.

No, but it's a subject that, when I was young, required a permission slip to ensure that what was taught was in line with parental views...

Even a sex shop is not pedophelia.

No, but bringing children (11-13 year olds in that case) is bordering on pedophilia.

Some LGBT community being in favor of something doesn't make it a unanimous view shared by all trans*. This is just using very limited exposure to make a judgement. This makes it qualify as judgement for the LGBT community that explicitly endorsed the behavior, but prejudice for all other trans* for you to extend purely by association.

Right, not a unanimous view, but the most vocal and active members of the community are the ones pushing their agenda and forcing these issues. Just the other day, a woman walks into a barbershop demanding a haircut. The barber tells the woman that he doesn't have the tools to cut women's hair, she storms out, and now this barbershop is going to be facing a lengthy court process for his "sexism"...

If you say "you can't change your gender," you're engaged in discrimination ie you are distinguishing trans* from being men or women (apparently you think they are always the gender associated with the genitalia they were born with or that they're simply neither gender ?).

So, a crazy person tells me he's the son of God. I'm just supposed to bow down and start worshiping because this person has some delusions?

If some trans* have hated on you, well sure that's not a good thing, presuming you did nothing to merit such a response. Still, one Iraqi chanting "Death to America!" is just a terrible reason to exterminate or oppress all Iraqis. You could try to understand how a reasonable, rational person could be in that trans* shoes, calling you a breeder. Look how unable these people are to accept trans*, did you appreciate having your lifestyle insulted by a small minority? Try to imagine how it feels to receive that attitude from a sizable majority.

I didn't care when that happened, had a laugh and carried on. I'm not talking about hating on them, oppressing them, or anything... I am ensuring that this group does not begin to oppress everyone else.

Force the issue ? I feel like all they want is basic human respect even if their gender is unusual and/or confusing... Is that too much to ask ?

lmao... No, they are going beyond demanding respect, the ones I have an issue with, they are forcing people who do not accept them for religious or other reasons to accept them.

Example; I don't have an issue with gay marriage, but I do have issue about churches, who believe gay marriage to be an evil, being forced to perform marriages.

 

[Bodi]

The trans movement depends on the sexual liberation movement. Without sexual liberation trans gender ideology makes no sense.

It doesn't make much sense anyway... but I certainly don't think poorly of these confused people, just empathy.

 

[Absentglare]

The trans movement depends on the sexual liberation movement. Without sexual liberation trans gender ideology makes no sense.

There's a difference between hoping that society comes to appreciate a more complex understanding of gender and forcing that understanding on highschool children sideways through hypersexualization.

 

[Absentglare]

No, but it's a subject that, when I was young, required a permission slip to ensure that what was taught was in line with parental views...



No, but bringing children (11-13 year olds in that case) is bordering on pedophilia.



Right, not a unanimous view, but the most vocal and active members of the community are the ones pushing their agenda and forcing these issues. Just the other day, a woman walks into a barbershop demanding a haircut. The barber tells the woman that he doesn't have the tools to cut women's hair, she storms out, and now this barbershop is going to be facing a lengthy court process for his "sexism"...




So, a crazy person tells me he's the son of God. I'm just supposed to bow down and start worshiping because this person has some delusions?



I didn't care when that happened, had a laugh and carried on. I'm not talking about hating on them, oppressing them, or anything... I am ensuring that this group does not begin to oppress everyone else.



lmao... No, they are going beyond demanding respect, the ones I have an issue with, they are forcing people who do not accept them for religious or other reasons to accept them.

Example; I don't have an issue with gay marriage, but I do have issue about churches, who believe gay marriage to be an evil, being forced to perform marriages.

Okay.

Maybe some trans* you've interacted with have behaved poorly. They are only human. Their position is unusual and can be very difficult to deal with.

Please do not presume that all trans* views are respected by this vocal minority that you've interacted with. I understand that we naturally categorize (we are cognitive misers, lazy thinkers), and it can be difficult to separate those categories from the individuals.

From my experience, trans* are not necessarily so militant. In fact, the trans* i know best is both timid and respectful.

 

[Absentglare]

Yes I disagree with the prenant lady one. Asking if a fat woman is pregnant is not rude. It just makes the lady in question embarrassed at being fat. Being rude requires intent.

Calling a girlie man a girl is rude but who does that, not to mention it is a straw man.

You are calling me rude when you call my views rude unless you think that the person expressing their views is unaware of what they are thinking and saying and because you call my views, and consequently me, rude, you are being rude. You are attacking me and my views. I have done nothing to you... at least not prior to your attacks.

I could care less... that is what I meant and evidenced by the fact that I stated that cared enough to point it out but nothing further on that topic.

I suppose asking a fat lady if she's pregnant can be innocent, but it can also be rude. I think it's fair to say that for the others as well.

I have considered your accusation, and i believe it to be reasonable. I should not have been nearly so abrasive. I sincerely regret having attacked and insulted you. I'm sorry.

 

[phattonez]

There's a difference between hoping that society comes to appreciate a more complex understanding of gender and forcing that understanding on highschool children sideways through hypersexualization.

What's your point?

 

[dirtpoorchris]

I think trying to seperate "gender" from "sex" is a cheap way of crossdressers to force you to call them what they wish they could be. Gender is Boy, Girl, or Other and depends on what you were supposed to be born as.

All this redifining of gender instead of making up new words is sneaky and lame. Sneaking your way onto the other genders list isnt going to magically solve everything. Youd be better off saying "ive been neutered and im living as a girl" instead of forcing everyone to accept you as a legitimate girl. Go shame the people who hate crossdressers and transexuals. It will be healthier for your movement instead of basing everything on lying and gaining mock acceptance because you pulled a fast one off. Mock acceptance feels good. But its not real.

Sorry but atm being transexual isnt "normal" but it is accepted. Trying to hide as a girl instead of checking the "trans" checkbox isnt really going to help your place in society.

 

[Absentglare]

What's your point?

Please don't hold it against all trans* if you have a bad experience with a small subset of trans*.

 

[Absentglare]

Should transwomen be legally treated as women?[W:165]

I think trying to seperate "gender" from "sex" is a cheap way of crossdressers to force you to call them what they wish they could be. Gender is Boy, Girl, or Other and depends on what you were supposed to be born as.

All this redifining of gender instead of making up new words is sneaky and lame. Sneaking your way onto the other genders list isnt going to magically solve everything. Youd be better off saying "ive been neutered and im living as a girl" instead of forcing everyone to accept you as a legitimate girl. Go shame the people who hate crossdressers and transexuals. It will be healthier for your movement instead of basing everything on lying and gaining mock acceptance because you pulled a fast one off. Mock acceptance feels good. But its not real.

Sorry but atm being transexual isnt "normal" but it is accepted. Trying to hide as a girl instead of checking the "trans" checkbox isnt really going to help your place in society.

In mice, they found that the development of a "male" brain required the hormone testosterone over a critical period of development.

If they restrained the release of testosterone, they created male mice who were essentially able to ovulate (at least as close as you can get without having ovaries). They found that restraining the release of estrogen did not have the same effect for female mice.

In effect, the brain defaults to female. If any stimuli interrupts the hormonal balance during the development period, permanent changes to the structure of the brain can occur, changes that may imply a female brain in a male body.

 

[phattonez]

Please don't hold it against all trans* if you have a bad experience with a small subset of trans*.

Now you're just not making any sense. When have I talked about a small subset of transgenders?