Should transwomen be legally treated as women?[W:165,1392]

[tecoyah]

No, actually this was a debate on another website. A lot of people brought up "But what about rape"! That is the argument people kept using. If we have public bathrooms that let men and woman in the same bathroom area there will be rape, so we should not do so. So I think if there was a proposed idea and more than one person brings up the same point, its a concern that more than one person would have.

In my opinion, if a man is interested in raping a woman he is unlikely to care much about the symbol found on a restroom door. There may be a slightly increased probability of opportunity and temptation involved here...but the level of incident would be so low as to be irrelevant. More likely this is simply used as another excuse to hate the people who have this condition, and make their lives more difficult than they already are.

Why can't people just fess up and admit they do not like these folks because they are Icky...I find them Icky too, but do not feel my opinion should be reason for trying to hurt someone in the outside world.

 

[MisterLogical]

In my opinion, if a man is interested in raping a woman he is unlikely to care much about the symbol found on a restroom door. There may be a slightly increased probability of opportunity and temptation involved here...but the level of incident would be so low as to be irrelevant. More likely this is simply used as another excuse to hate the people who have this condition, and make their lives more difficult than they already are.

Why can't people just fess up and admit they do not like these folks because they are Icky...I find them Icky too, but do not feel my opinion should be reason for trying to hurt someone in the outside world.

So your argument is rape in bathrooms will happen regardless since people who rape have no regard for basic regulations and laws?

Also I do not think people not wanting to permit transgender people into the incorrect sex bathroom is hating on anyone. The rules existed before they decided they were a different gender. They already knew this. They decided to go against it knowing the rules that already stood. So the fault lies more with the trans-gendered person, not the rest of us. I am sure there is many rules we do not like in society but it does not mean we are special and get to override them since we are special little snowflakes does it? I can say I don't like that you can not copy music off the computer and sell it to make my own profit but regardless of how stupid I think this law really is, and how I believe that celebrities already make enough money as it is, I will still get arrested for it. I am not a special snowflake that needs to be treated differently. There is laws in society, and we follow them or we choose not to and pay for it. If we are put in a position were we must break it, but not out of free will but poor circumstance, you can attempt to defend yourself. Like if someone was trying to kidnap you and you accidentally kill them trying to get away, its self defense. If you choose to kill him since you believe he does not deserve to live, you are most likely to still go to prison. I do agree with you on the rape thing though. I do not think having co-ed bathrooms are going to change rape statistics that drastically. I think most people go to bathrooms just to go and I don't think they really think about sex, when they go in most cases. I do believe we should have separate gender bathrooms in bars just for the sake people are often going to go to the stalls puking and drunk and given the fact people love taking each other home drunk, I dont think some idiot seeing miss Susan passed out drunk on the Toilet is very safe. Though I think in this case it might also make more sense to just station guards in bar toilets, to watch for incidents.

 

[tecoyah]

So your argument is rape in bathrooms will happen regardless since people who rape have no regard for basic regulations and laws?

I suppose if that is all you can take from my comments...then sure. Women are raped all the time in restrooms, alleys, hotel rooms, pretty much everywhere. Considering the way most transgender women look...It is unlikely the rapist would choose her over a more attractive women. Again....why is it that people can't admit that the reason they make a big deal about this is because it's Icky.

 

[MisterLogical]

I suppose if that is all you can take from my comments...then sure. Women are raped all the time in restrooms, alleys, hotel rooms, pretty much everywhere. Considering the way most transgender women look...It is unlikely the rapist would choose her over a more attractive women. Again....why is it that people can't admit that the reason they make a big deal about this is because it's Icky.

I do not think the argument is against transgendered women/men being raped but that allowed all men and all women into the same rest room would get MOST women raped. Also I do not believe that simply not wanting someone of another sex in your bathroom shows that you hate trans people.

 

[tecoyah]

I do not think the argument is against transgendered women/men being raped but that allowed all men and all women into the same rest room would get MOST women raped. Also I do not believe that simply not wanting someone of another sex in your bathroom shows that you hate trans people.

Seriously?...do you honestly think that men have no morals or self control around a woman?

WOW...you have a very negative and warped view of humanity. Do you for some reason also think the act of defecation/Urination is something that is a "Turn On"...interesting.

There are many unisex restrooms in multiple countries and college campuses...I could not find a single case of a rape happening in any of them.

 

[MisterLogical]

Seriously?...do you honestly think that men have no morals or self control around a woman?

WOW...you have a very negative and warped view of humanity. Do you for some reason also think the act of defecation/Urination is something that is a "Turn On"...interesting.

There are many unisex restrooms in multiple countries and college campuses...I could not find a single case of a rape happening in any of them.

No, you seem to assume this is my argument. Which is not. I think in cases aside from bars that it really makes no difference, but bars, clubs and raves seem to have a lot of incidents and a bad reputation already.

I already argued about the case of already existing unisex bathrooms(As you do in your bolded statement), I do not understand why you would use this against me, when I already agree with it. Also I do not see why you want to attack people who are have a Urine/poop fetish. I mean yes, some of us might think it is gross and weird, but its not like they are demanding you do it with them. So it really should not be any of your business what odd/Kinky stuff others do. I mean I find it terribly unsanitary but I tend to be a huge germaphobe. If people want to have golden showers or whatever and the other people are consenting, well let them do as they want. Its grosse to us but you know that is up to them.

 

[tecoyah]

No, you seem to assume this is my argument. Which is not. I think in cases aside from bars that it really makes no difference, but bars, clubs and raves seem to have a lot of incidents and a bad reputation already.

I already argued about the case of already existing unisex bathrooms(As you do in your bolded statement), I do not understand why you would use this against me, when I already agree with it. Also I do not see why you want to attack people who are have a Urine/poop fetish. I mean yes, some of us might think it is gross and weird, but its not like they are demanding you do it with them. So it really should not be any of your business what odd/Kinky stuff others do. I mean I find it terribly unsanitary but I tend to be a huge germaphobe. If people want to have golden showers or whatever and the other people are consenting, well let them do as they want. Its grosse to us but you know that is up to them.

My assumption based on this conversation was centered the rape topic, unisex restrooms, transgendered people and violation of privacy/personal space. Given this data and the topic of this thread I had no idea it was actually about consenting people peeing on each other in privacy...perhaps I need to pay closer attention.

 

[MisterLogical]

My assumption based on this conversation was centered the rape topic, unisex restrooms, transgendered people and violation of privacy/personal space. Given this data and the topic of this thread I had no idea it was actually about consenting people peeing on each other in privacy...perhaps I need to pay closer attention.

I agree with Unisex bathrooms, but most people argue against it since they claim there will be rape. The only time I think this argument is valid, or where the bathrooms need to be closely monitered is bars and clubs.

 

[BmanMcfly]

I agree with Unisex bathrooms, but most people argue against it since they claim there will be rape. The only time I think this argument is valid, or where the bathrooms need to be closely monitered is bars and clubs.

I'll agree with you if we are talking about a room with a toilet and sink, then who cares who used it last.

However, if you're talking about a room with multiple urinals and stalls, well, that's bound to make some uncomfortable.

 

[MisterLogical]

I'll agree with you if we are talking about a room with a toilet and sink, then who cares who used it last.

However, if you're talking about a room with multiple urinals and stalls, well, that's bound to make some uncomfortable.

Unisex does not have Urinals no. Unisex bathrooms are designed like a girl bathroom but allows both men and woman in. It just has normal toilet in stalls like a chicks bathroom.

 

[Absentglare]

I agree with Unisex bathrooms, but most people argue against it since they claim there will be rape. The only time I think this argument is valid, or where the bathrooms need to be closely monitered is bars and clubs.

The public is not obligated to guarantee the safety of every person no matter how inebriated they are. The justification for separate bathrooms has two major points that i see (1) women don't want men to hear them poop and (2) women don't want a bathroom covered in urine. It is the very definition of gender discrimination and, for that reason, i consider it unconstitutional (if it were enforced- as it stands i think it functions primarily as a suggestion/courtesy).

With the suggestion/courtesy markers in play, it seems silly to get mad about a trans* choosing which bathroom to use. The problem is obviously in the person complaining about it, citing imaginary scenarios of rape or "little girls seeking dicks" that just doesn't happen in general, anyway.

 

[Boo Radley]

Well, what do you think?

I can't think of a decent reason not to.

 

[LaylaWindu]

Well, what do you think?

Yes of course. If they get the diagnosis and surgery while taking the legal steps to do so theres no valid reason to deny them.

 

[MisterLogical]

The public is not obligated to guarantee the safety of every person no matter how inebriated they are. The justification for separate bathrooms has two major points that i see (1) women don't want men to hear them poop and (2) women don't want a bathroom covered in urine. It is the very definition of gender discrimination and, for that reason, i consider it unconstitutional (if it were enforced- as it stands i think it functions primarily as a suggestion/courtesy).

With the suggestion/courtesy markers in play, it seems silly to get mad about a trans* choosing which bathroom to use. The problem is obviously in the person complaining about it, citing imaginary scenarios of rape or "little girls seeking dicks" that just doesn't happen in general, anyway.

No, that is incorrect. You are liable if someone gets hurt on your premises. If someone gets raped in a bar bathroom guess who can be sued? The BAR! If someone dies on the premises guess who can get sued? THE BAR! If someone slips on a slippery floor and break their back, Yes again you can in fact sue the bar. So saying that its legal to let people become hurt and injured on your property is not a valid argument, its just factually incorrect. Why do you think they have signs saying the floor is slippery, or labels with the ingredients in it, or cups that say "Content might be hot". The reason is they do not want a LAWSUIT! So, sorry but this is simply not how business laws work. Bars are also responsible for serving too much alcohol to people and a person getting in a car crash for drunk driving. So, its really ridiculous to state that people can just do whatever they want and not care about what happens to people in their premises.

 

[Bodi]

Then why is all of academia firmly seated against your dated, ignorant view?

"academia"? You have not shown anything that is scientifically conclusive. If that is the standard for "academia" these days we are in for one hell of a ****hole world.

 

[Absentglare]

No, that is incorrect. You are liable if someone gets hurt on your premises. If someone gets raped in a bar bathroom guess who can be sued? The BAR! If someone dies on the premises guess who can get sued? THE BAR! If someone slips on a slippery floor and break their back, Yes again you can in fact sue the bar. So saying that its legal to let people become hurt and injured on your property is not a valid argument, its just factually incorrect. Why do you think they have signs saying the floor is slippery, or labels with the ingredients in it, or cups that say "Content might be hot". The reason is they do not want a LAWSUIT! So, sorry but this is simply not how business laws work. Bars are also responsible for serving too much alcohol to people and a person getting in a car crash for drunk driving. So, its really ridiculous to state that people can just do whatever they want and not care about what happens to people in their premises.

It's different if the owner is negligent than if another patron is a criminal.

"academia"? You have not shown anything that is scientifically conclusive. If that is the standard for "academia" these days we are in for one hell of a ****hole world.

Wikipedia gender.

I quoted plenty to educate you. I cannot fight willful ignorance with facts and logic.

 

[MisterLogical]

It's different if the owner is negligent than if another patron is a criminal.



Wikipedia gender.


I quoted plenty to educate you. I cannot fight willful ignorance with facts and logic.

No, its not. The bar is still liable, even for things you might not think they are liable for, they are still liable for.

Dram Shop Laws: Bar Owner Liability for Drunk Driving Accidents - AllLaw.com

If its on the bars property you can still sue them for being injured on their property. That is generally how the law goes with these cases. Anyone on your property you are liable for, and drunk drivers are also liability's for the bars in some cases. They have sued people for breaking into their yard and breaking their leg, or getting injured by a dog when breaking into the backyard. So why do you believe that its impossible to sue a business?

 

[Bodi]

Wikipedia gender.

:lol: I ask for, "anything that is scientifically conclusive" and you tell me to Wikipedia gender?

 

[Bodi]

No, its not. The bar is still liable, even for things you might not think they are liable for, they are still liable for.

Dram Shop Laws: Bar Owner Liability for Drunk Driving Accidents - AllLaw.com

If its on the bars property you can still sue them for being injured on their property. That is generally how the law goes with these cases. Anyone on your property you are liable for, and drunk drivers are also liability's for the bars in some cases. They have sued people for breaking into their yard and breaking their leg, or getting injured by a dog when breaking into the backyard. So why do you believe that its impossible to sue a business?

I agree with you in theory but anybody can sue anybody even if it is meritless... if the bar does what is reasonable in terms of setting up customer safety then the lawsuit will be dismissed. That means proper dooors, lighting, accessibility, etc. If a guy attacks a woman in the woman's room the bar is not automatically liable... and that is not analogous to a bar over serving a customer alcohol who then goes out and gets hurt or hurts another. That is a Straw Man logical fallacy...

 

[Absentglare]

:lol: I ask for, "anything that is scientifically conclusive" and you tell me to Wikipedia gender?

I've already given you plenty.

You've chosen to ignore every conclusion of the entire field of gender studies.

 

[QuadpolarNutjob]

will they want maternity leave?

 

[Bodi]

I've already given you plenty.

You've chosen to ignore every conclusion of the entire field of gender studies.

No... you have not. I have repeatedly asked and you repeatedly have said that you have when you have not.

If you are confusing me with another person I can forgive you but I don't think that you are.

 

[Bodi]

will they want maternity leave?

Can they have children? No? Stupid question then...

 

[Absentglare]

No... you have not. I have repeatedly asked and you repeatedly have said that you have when you have not.

If you are confusing me with another person I can forgive you but I don't think that you are.

I've given you plenty, but you just disappear for several days and show up saying "Oh you haven't given me anything!" Which makes your gawking ape picture all the more amusing.

Fine, here's some more:

"
A further issue with the gender binary is the insistence that men are masculine and women are feminine. This reduces options for people to act outside of their gender role without coming under scrutiny. Moreover, male and female do not directly translate to masculine and feminine as those terms are laden with ulterior meanings that have been “politically contextualized and constructed” and are not mutually exclusive categories.[9] Therefore, the assertion of femininity applying solely to women and masculinity solely to men is fundamentally flawed. It is important to distinguish femininity and masculinity as a descriptor for behaviors or attitudes without tying them directly to the genders man and woman. By employing masculinity and femininity as adjectives, they are helpful tools for understanding human actions.[10] Gendered descriptors have uses, but by connecting them to specific sexes they become oppressive terms that enable continued discrimination.

Maria Lugones observes that among the Yoruba people there was no concept of gender and no gender system at all before colonialism. She argues that historically a gender system was introduced by colonial powers as a tool for domination and fundamentally changing social relations among the indigenous.
"

 

[Bodi]

I've given you plenty, but you just disappear for several days and show up saying "Oh you haven't given me anything!" Which makes your gawking ape picture all the more amusing.

Fine, here's some more:

"
A further issue with the gender binary is the insistence that men are masculine and women are feminine. This reduces options for people to act outside of their gender role without coming under scrutiny. Moreover, male and female do not directly translate to masculine and feminine as those terms are laden with ulterior meanings that have been “politically contextualized and constructed” and are not mutually exclusive categories.[9] Therefore, the assertion of femininity applying solely to women and masculinity solely to men is fundamentally flawed. It is important to distinguish femininity and masculinity as a descriptor for behaviors or attitudes without tying them directly to the genders man and woman. By employing masculinity and femininity as adjectives, they are helpful tools for understanding human actions.[10] Gendered descriptors have uses, but by connecting them to specific sexes they become oppressive terms that enable continued discrimination.

Maria Lugones observes that among the Yoruba people there was no concept of gender and no gender system at all before colonialism. She argues that historically a gender system was introduced by colonial powers as a tool for domination and fundamentally changing social relations among the indigenous.
"

1. An opinion
2. Not scientific
3. No link to source
4. Nothing about a man not being a man
5. Just about how people "feel" which is the core of my argument.
6. Anything else or is your argument actually this week?
7. I travel. I was just in Auckland for over a week and do not bother worrying about this site... I will be in Singapore later this month, Vietnam the next month and then the USA and Mexico at the end of the year for over a month and will not be checking this site. Amazingly enough though when I say that you have not given anything scientific... you have not given anything scientific. Sorry... *shrugs*