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Is the GOP Commiting Political Suicide?[W:11]

Re: Is the GOP Commiting Political Suicide?

Once again...you are changing what I said in order to pretend that you are winning what you are pretending to be some sort of contest, Jack.

Now go back and read the words that I actually wrote...and use them rather than your characterization (the characterization you are using to pretend that you have shown my assertion to be false.)

From your #121:

"...but EVERY avowed racist I personally know...or personally know about...appears to be a Republican and an American conservative. . . ."

From my #128:


25 Examples of Liberal Racism in Quotes - John Hawkins ...

townhall.com/columnists/johnhawkins/...racism.../full

Since I'm sure you "know about" Dan Rather, Al Sharpton, Bill Clinton and Ralph Nader, et al, it's clear that your claim was false. QED
 
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Re: Is the GOP Commiting Political Suicide?

No you haven't.

Name one AVOWED RACIST that doesn't appear to be a Republican or an American conservative.

The key word here is Avowed.

If you think Louis Farrakhan and his repulsive ilk aren't racists, your definition of the word is absolutely meaningless. This isn't a game of Cowbows and Indians here, even though you see the left as the good guys and the right as big meanie poopooheads.


Until you develop the capability of judging the "us" by the same standards as you do the "them", you are simply indulging in hack politics.
 
Re: Is the GOP Commiting Political Suicide?

Now let's turn the lens around.

The largest demographics in the United States...white voters. The highest income, best educated and 'least' religious group...whites. The group most likely to get out and vote...whites.

The majority of whites, male AND female vote Republican.
The group that controls the Senate...GOP. The group that controls the House...GOP.

It is easy to control those. Everyone votes for president. It is popular.
 
Re: Is the GOP Commiting Political Suicide?

From your #121:

"...but EVERY avowed racist I personally know...or personally know about...appears to be a Republican and an American conservative. . . ."

From my #128:


25 Examples of Liberal Racism in Quotes - John Hawkins ...

townhall.com/columnists/johnhawkins/...racism.../full

Since I'm sure you "know about" Dan Rather, Al Sharpton, Bill Clinton and Ralph Nader, et al, it's clear that your claim was false. QED

Hummm...so you are saying that Dan Rather, Al Sharpton, Bill Clinton, and Ralph Nader have announced to the world that they are racists.

Wow...okay...I must have missed that.

Or did you decide you were going to ignore the "avowed" in my comment...so that you can continue this absurd pretense that you have shown my claim to be false?

If you are correct about Rather, Sharpton, Clinton, and Nader, though, I'd really like a link to where they proclaimed their racism.
 
Re: Is the GOP Commiting Political Suicide?

Hummm...so you are saying that Dan Rather, Al Sharpton, Bill Clinton, and Ralph Nader have announced to the world that they are racists.

Wow...okay...I must have missed that.

Or did you decide you were going to ignore the "avowed" in my comment...so that you can continue this absurd pretense that you have shown my claim to be false?

If you are correct about Rather, Sharpton, Clinton, and Nader, though, I'd really like a link to where they proclaimed their racism.

They are quoted in my link.
 
Re: Is the GOP Commiting Political Suicide?

They are quoted in my link.

C'mon, Jack, show more self-respect.

Rather, Sharpton, Clinton, and Nader are NOT avowed racists.

The Knights of the Ku Klux Klan are...the members of various white supremacist groups are. They proudly proclaim their racism.

You mighta gotten away with Louis Farrakhan and Rev. Lowery...but even that article would have had trouble painting them as "liberals."
 
Re: Is the GOP Commiting Political Suicide?

C'mon, Jack, show more self-respect.

Rather, Sharpton, Clinton, and Nader are NOT avowed racists.

The Knights of the Ku Klux Klan are...the members of various white supremacist groups are. They proudly proclaim their racism.

You mighta gotten away with Louis Farrakhan and Rev. Lowery...but even that article would have had trouble painting them as "liberals."

Their words are their words. Those words are racist. Ergo they are avowed racists.

And stop the condescending "self-respect" nonsense. A lack of self-respect would be to let lefty propaganda go unchallenged. The smug self-righteous hypocrisy and bigotry of the left is among the ugliest features of American politics.

That said, I suggest our exchange has reached the point of diminishing returns.
 
Re: Is the GOP Commiting Political Suicide?

Their words are their words. Those words are racist. Ergo they are avowed racists.

And stop the condescending "self-respect" nonsense. A lack of self-respect would be to let lefty propaganda go unchallenged. The smug self-righteous hypocrisy and bigotry of the left is among the ugliest features of American politics.

That said, I suggest our exchange has reached the point of diminishing returns.

I agree...we've gotten into personalities. Not a good thing on either of our parts. I apologize for my part in that.

Under any circumstances...you claimed to have shown my assertion to be false...but you didn't. I worded what I had to say carefully...and you didn't.
 
Re: Is the GOP Commiting Political Suicide?

The key word here is Avowed.

If you think Louis Farrakhan and his repulsive ilk aren't racists, your definition of the word is absolutely meaningless. This isn't a game of Cowbows and Indians here, even though you see the left as the good guys and the right as big meanie poopooheads.


Until you develop the capability of judging the "us" by the same standards as you do the "them", you are simply indulging in hack politics.

Easy on, Gardener.

I see the Louis Farrakhan's and Rev. Lowery the same way you do. But you are dismissive of something I was careful to include...the word "avowed."

As I have mentioned many times in the forum...damn near every one of my close friends and family are as conservative as the most die-hard conservative here. I am not hating or judging conservatives...even though I personally find American conservatism repulsive. I make careful statements at appropriate moments.
 
Re: Is the GOP Commiting Political Suicide?

I don't believe all in the GOP are racist, I don't believe that the GOP leadership are racist, I don't even believe that Trump is racist. However, what I do believe is that the party is pandering to those kinds of people unfortunately. Do you not think so?

No. Here is your problem: Trump isn't racist, most republicans aren't racist, yet you believe Trump is "pandering" to racist elements. Now, think that through for a moment. Why would he do that? How would pandering to a small, undesirable corner of the party get him the nomination of the party as a hole? Answer: it wouldn't. Second, you are falling for the liberal media line. Just so you know, there is nothing racist about wanting your country to have boarders and limits upon those who enter. Trumps appeal, and why he will not only win the nomination but the general election, is that he is pro-American. Liberals, naturally, view that as anti-everyone else--which it obviously isn't. But then again, liberals aren't nearly as bright as they think they are.
 
Re: Is the GOP Commiting Political Suicide?

I agree...we've gotten into personalities. Not a good thing on either of our parts. I apologize for my part in that.

Under any circumstances...you claimed to have shown my assertion to be false...but you didn't. I worded what I had to say carefully...and you didn't.

You are free to believe your own truth.
 
Re: Is the GOP Commiting Political Suicide?

No. Here is your problem: Trump isn't racist, most republicans aren't racist, yet you believe Trump is "pandering" to racist elements. Now, think that through for a moment. Why would he do that? How would pandering to a small, undesirable corner of the party get him the nomination of the party as a hole? Answer: it wouldn't. Second, you are falling for the liberal media line. Just so you know, there is nothing racist about wanting your country to have boarders and limits upon those who enter. Trumps appeal, and why he will not only win the nomination but the general election, is that he is pro-American. Liberals, naturally, view that as anti-everyone else--which it obviously isn't. But then again, liberals aren't nearly as bright as they think they are.

Hmm I take you're point on board about the boarders. However, there is no doubt that he saying some flat of racist things and even gives some racists policy positions. Like the comments about Mexican immigrates in his presidential announcement. Plus when he says ban all Muslims. However, I do struggle to understand how a group of people who I would like to think are not racist, can allow someone who says racist things to become their nominee. Then I realise, the majority of Republicans are not actually supporting Trump, the people who support Trump it's actually more like 30 to 40% tops of the republicans top. There is definitely an element in that party who are racist or at least dislike Mexican, Muslims and other minorities, and Trump knows it. And although the majority portion of the party hsve only concern for yhe border and terrorism, and don't hold ill will to the groups usually associated with those issues. Trump isn't afraid to tap into the small part of the party who do actually are actually racist or at least dislike said groups.

I believe you're under estimating the size and/or strength of this element of the party. However, I say again, the party as a whole isn't racist or prejudice. It'll be like saying the Democratic Party are socialist just because 30-40% support Sanders. Trump is just lucky that he has so many other candidates whose splitting the votes of the more sensible part of the party. If the GOP race had just 2 or 3 like the DMC race I think Trump would be losing. Unfortunately, because everyone thinks trump will eventually do something which kills finally kills is support, too many GOP candidates are staying in the race. This splits the vote of the majority of the party so the smaller but loyal crazy minority carry Trump to nomination victory.

That's what's happening.

also there are no polls, not a single one, that show him beating either Clinton or Sanders. So if Trump wins, the GOP will lose...and I'd bet my house on it
 
Re: Is the GOP Commiting Political Suicide?

You are free to believe your own truth.

As are you.

I guess Jack will call this liberal bigotry, but no one is actually free to their own facts, because we'll eventually draw a line. People who go too far with their own fact or truth or whatever you call it, can soon find them in the loony bin.
 
Re: Is the GOP Commiting Political Suicide?

I guess Jack will call this liberal bigotry, but no one is actually free to their own facts, because we'll eventually draw a line. People who go too far with their own fact or truth or whatever you call it, can soon find them in the loony bin.

It was merely a courtesy to conclude an exchange which had passed the point of diminishing returns.
 
Re: Is the GOP Commiting Political Suicide?

Hmm I take you're point on board about the boarders. However, there is no doubt that he saying some flat of racist things and even gives some racists policy positions. Like the comments about Mexican immigrates in his presidential announcement. Plus when he says ban all Muslims. However, I do struggle to understand how a group of people who I would like to think are not racist, can allow someone who says racist things to become their nominee. Then I realise, the majority of Republicans are not actually supporting Trump, the people who support Trump it's actually more like 30 to 40% tops of the republicans top. There is definitely an element in that party who are racist or at least dislike Mexican, Muslims and other minorities, and Trump knows it. And although the majority portion of the party hsve only concern for yhe border and terrorism, and don't hold ill will to the groups usually associated with those issues. Trump isn't afraid to tap into the small part of the party who do actually are actually racist or at least dislike said groups.

I believe you're under estimating the size and/or strength of this element of the party. However, I say again, the party as a whole isn't racist or prejudice. It'll be like saying the Democratic Party are socialist just because 30-40% support Sanders. Trump is just lucky that he has so many other candidates whose splitting the votes of the more sensible part of the party. If the GOP race had just 2 or 3 like the DMC race I think Trump would be losing. Unfortunately, because everyone thinks trump will eventually do something which kills finally kills is support, too many GOP candidates are staying in the race. This splits the vote of the majority of the party so the smaller but loyal crazy minority carry Trump to nomination victory.

That's what's happening.

also there are no polls, not a single one, that show him beating either Clinton or Sanders. So if Trump wins, the GOP will lose...and I'd bet my house on it

First off all, I would agree that Trump doesn't choose his words very carefully. The man is unscripted and speaks whatever comes to his mind. I find that refreshing, frankly, especially in contrast to everyone else who wont say a word that hasn't been poll tested and reviewed by a multitude of handlers. As for him being racist or appealing to racists, it should first be pointed out that neither Mexicans nor Muslims are a race, so wanting to keep them out of the country isn't racist by definition. Trumps appeal is that of a guy who will fix the nations problems: If China is ripping us off, make better deals; if ISIS is killing Americans, wipe them out, if Mexicans are crossing the boarder illegally in droves, build a wall; if companies are leaving America to build their products elsewhere, tax the hell out of them; if Muslims are sneaking in to harm Americans, ban muslims from entering. His solutions might be silly and/or unworkable but they aren't racist in my view.

We have a problem in this country, not so much with race, but with everything being labeled racist, That is how the left here operates. Disagree with them on abortion, you hate women. Disagree with them on welfare programs, you hate the old or the poor. Disagree with them on issues of race an you are a racist. Disagree on marriage and you are a homophobe. It is impossible to have an honest discussion with a liberal. They are intolerant of dissent.

Trump is a populist and a nationalist who just so happen to be carrying the republican banner. But the guy has been a democrat and a democrat supporter his entire life. There is nothing ideological about him whatsoever. If he gets in office he will champion the growth of state power every bit as much as Obama does, which is why people like me--who truly want smaller, limited government--see Trump as just another collectivist stooge. Albeit an entertaining one.
 
Re: Is the GOP Commiting Political Suicide?

It is impossible to have an honest discussion with a liberal. They are intolerant of dissent.

I'm not a liberal...but I do read what is written here in the forum.

I suggest, as respectfully as possible, that with an attitude like that...perhaps it is not the "liberal" position that is the trouble in having an honest discussion. Perhaps it is something in you...and others who agree with that position. And by that, I do not mean "conservatives"...but rather people who identify as conservatives or libertarians or liberals.


Mostly the people who identify strongly with terms like "conservative" or "liberal" or "libertarian" are at the far ends of the spectrum...and for the most part...people at the extremes ARE intolerant of dissent.

It is difficult to have an honest, rational discussion with so very many people who identify as any of those things. They are, as you suggested about the liberals, intolerant of dissent.

You seem to be.
 
Re: Is the GOP Commiting Political Suicide?

First off all, I would agree that Trump doesn't choose his words very carefully. The man is unscripted and speaks whatever comes to his mind. I find that refreshing, frankly, especially in contrast to everyone else who wont say a word that hasn't been poll tested and reviewed by a multitude of handlers. As for him being racist or appealing to racists, it should first be pointed out that neither Mexicans nor Muslims are a race, so wanting to keep them out of the country isn't racist by definition. Trumps appeal is that of a guy who will fix the nations problems: If China is ripping us off, make better deals; if ISIS is killing Americans, wipe them out, if Mexicans are crossing the boarder illegally in droves, build a wall; if companies are leaving America to build their products elsewhere, tax the hell out of them; if Muslims are sneaking in to harm Americans, ban muslims from entering. His solutions might be silly and/or unworkable but they aren't racist in my view.

We have a problem in this country, not so much with race, but with everything being labeled racist, That is how the left here operates. Disagree with them on abortion, you hate women. Disagree with them on welfare programs, you hate the old or the poor. Disagree with them on issues of race an you are a racist. Disagree on marriage and you are a homophobe. It is impossible to have an honest discussion with a liberal. They are intolerant of dissent.

Trump is a populist and a nationalist who just so happen to be carrying the republican banner. But the guy has been a democrat and a democrat supporter his entire life. There is nothing ideological about him whatsoever. If he gets in office he will champion the growth of state power every bit as much as Obama does, which is why people like me--who truly want smaller, limited government--see Trump as just another collectivist stooge. Albeit an entertaining one.

Very reasonable and articulate reply, however, I'm afraid I will have to disagree with you on a couple of things.

Although first, I should are right in correcting me about my use of the word racist. Indeed neither Mexicans nor Muslims are a race. The irony is, and I know I'm opening myself up here by saying this, as a black person I should know better. Now on to my disagreements with your reply.

I do have a huge issue with banning an entire group of people. Sure, Muslims are the ones which are committing many many of these terrorist acts around the world, but it is an extremely small minority of them who do it. To ban on such a huge number of perfectly innocent people because a portion of the group they share do harm is, to say the least, unjust. It seems to be the same kind of logic which actual racists use for justifying the extra scrutiny and suspicion of black people. Sure on the face of it, the numbers show a higher proportion of black people to commit crime, but there are many reasons for this and doesn't it actually mean black people are actually more likely to do bad things. I think Muslims are now facing the same issue.

So I think it might be better to think a little more in terms targeting specific people more, rather than entire groups. To discriminant against a group of people simply because of their nature and not their actions is the very definition of being prejudice - a key tenant of a racist. However, I repeat for the x-th time, I don't think that Republicans, the GOP leadership or Trump are racist, but some of the things which Trump are saying are at least prejudice. And it really makes me sad that good people (including you) are willing to excuse such comments as off the cuff, unscripted or speaking his mind, as an actual reasons to explain away the word which he is saying, instead of denouncing at least the clearly prejudice things he says.

Sure I agree with Trump when it comes to China ripping the US off, their ripping the whole world off! Of course a country should have control of it's boarders, so if he wants to build the Great Wall of Trump, I have nothing against that. Taxing the hell out of companies to stop flight from the US, sounds great to me!

However, the problem is the rhetoric he says. He does have some good policies, but when he says Muslims should wear identification or that all 11 plus million people should be round up and deported, I can help compare those policies to those of Fascists.
 
Re: Is the GOP Commiting Political Suicide?

Very reasonable and articulate reply, however, I'm afraid I will have to disagree with you on a couple of things.

Although first, I should are right in correcting me about my use of the word racist. Indeed neither Mexicans nor Muslims are a race. The irony is, and I know I'm opening myself up here by saying this, as a black person I should know better. Now on to my disagreements with your reply.

I do have a huge issue with banning an entire group of people. Sure, Muslims are the ones which are committing many many of these terrorist acts around the world, but it is an extremely small minority of them who do it. To ban on such a huge number of perfectly innocent people because a portion of the group they share do harm is, to say the least, unjust. It seems to be the same kind of logic which actual racists use for justifying the extra scrutiny and suspicion of black people. Sure on the face of it, the numbers show a higher proportion of black people to commit crime, but there are many reasons for this and doesn't it actually mean black people are actually more likely to do bad things. I think Muslims are now facing the same issue.
I don't think we disagree here at all. I think the idea of banning Muslims as a group is absurd for bot legal and practical reasons. My issue is that it isn't racist. Stupid, yes. Racist, no. Trump often speaks before he thinks and this issue is a perfect example.

So I think it might be better to think a little more in terms targeting specific people more, rather than entire groups. To discriminant against a group of people simply because of their nature and not their actions is the very definition of being prejudice - a key tenant of a racist. However, I repeat for the x-th time, I don't think that Republicans, the GOP leadership or Trump are racist, but some of the things which Trump are saying are at least prejudice. And it really makes me sad that good people (including you) are willing to excuse such comments as off the cuff, unscripted or speaking his mind, as an actual reasons to explain away the word which he is saying, instead of denouncing at least the clearly prejudice things he says.
I think he made a prejudicial statement that was based upon stupidity, not prejudice. So if I criticize him for it--which I do--I criticize him for saying something stupid. As I said in my earlier post, the charge of racism is tossed around in America like Frisbees at a summer picnic. When everything is racist, nothing is racist. Racism should be reserved for the real, not the imagined. The latest news from Hollywood is a perfect example. We now have the specter of black actors, dripping in wealth and privilege, whining about racism because they didn't get a particular trophy from their supposed peers. To be honest, there aren't many middle class white guys who have to endure constant accusations of 'white privilege' that empathize with black elites who feel they have been slighted at some black tie award show and storm of in their limos.

Racism in America it is used by he left as a political weapon. They pander to blacks, hurl charges of racism at their political opponents, act as if they care about the plight of minorities during election season, then ignore them once the election is over. Republicans don't exploit this contempt the left has for minorities not because they share it, but because they just aren't smart enough or are too lazy to try. Race relations in this country are actually quite good if you look past the rhetoric and political spin.

Sure I agree with Trump when it comes to China ripping the US off, their ripping the whole world off! Of course a country should have control of it's boarders, so if he wants to build the Great Wall of Trump, I have nothing against that. Taxing the hell out of companies to stop flight from the US, sounds great to me!

However, the problem is the rhetoric he says. He does have some good policies, but when he says Muslims should wear identification or that all 11 plus million people should be round up and deported, I can help compare those policies to those of Fascists.
I agree completely. Trump will concern himself with 'making the trains run on time' not with individual liberty. Trump will be more like the American Putin than the American Jefferson.
 
Re: Is the GOP Commiting Political Suicide?

I don't think we disagree here at all. I think the idea of banning Muslims as a group is absurd for bot legal and practical reasons. My issue is that it isn't racist. Stupid, yes. Racist, no. Trump often speaks before he thinks and this issue is a perfect example.

I think he made a prejudicial statement that was based upon stupidity, not prejudice. So if I criticize him for it--which I do--I criticize him for saying something stupid. As I said in my earlier post, the charge of racism is tossed around in America like Frisbees at a summer picnic. When everything is racist, nothing is racist. Racism should be reserved for the real, not the imagined. The latest news from Hollywood is a perfect example. We now have the specter of black actors, dripping in wealth and privilege, whining about racism because they didn't get a particular trophy from their supposed peers. To be honest, there aren't many middle class white guys who have to endure constant accusations of 'white privilege' that empathize with black elites who feel they have been slighted at some black tie award show and storm of in their limos.

Racism in America it is used by he left as a political weapon. They pander to blacks, hurl charges of racism at their political opponents, act as if they care about the plight of minorities during election season, then ignore them once the election is over. Republicans don't exploit this contempt the left has for minorities not because they share it, but because they just aren't smart enough or are too lazy to try. Race relations in this country are actually quite good if you look past the rhetoric and political spin.


I agree completely. Trump will concern himself with 'making the trains run on time' not with individual liberty. Trump will be more like the American Putin than the American Jefferson.

The only other thing that I'd add is I think race relations aren't as good as you might think in the US. Since all those black people are being shot and being sent to jail, however, all I can really do over here in the UK is speculate, so I can imagine that more of it is an issue with police policy than anything else. So I think the police really do need to be changed, not just for the sake of the black people who seemingly are being unfairly treated, but for every American.

I've seen quite a bit of people complaining about "whiteness" of hollywood....that is the most superficial and inconsequential a thing black people could sorry about, black americans have bigger issues to worry about. We (black people) have our very own award thingy (BMAs), and often win in many music and sports awards...So if theres a case of pandering to black people, it is this by the media, I'd rather you be outraged by the police more than this nonsense :/

I guess we can end on positive note tho.

Who said the internet was full of trolls?! I have to say almost all my interactions on here has been very positive ^^
 
Re: Is the GOP Commiting Political Suicide?

The only other thing that I'd add is I think race relations aren't as good as you might think in the US. Since all those black people are being shot and being sent to jail, however, all I can really do over here in the UK is speculate, so I can imagine that more of it is an issue with police policy than anything else. So I think the police really do need to be changed, not just for the sake of the black people who seemingly are being unfairly treated, but for every American.

I've seen quite a bit of people complaining about "whiteness" of hollywood....that is the most superficial and inconsequential a thing black people could sorry about, black americans have bigger issues to worry about. We (black people) have our very own award thingy (BMAs), and often win in many music and sports awards...So if theres a case of pandering to black people, it is this by the media, I'd rather you be outraged by the police more than this nonsense :/

I guess we can end on positive note tho.

Who said the internet was full of trolls?! I have to say almost all my interactions on here has been very positive ^^

Well, welcome to the forum. :)
 
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