Yes, Virginia, Russians did help Trump Win

[Fletch]

You could argue anything. We’ll never know for sure, so it is incorrect to say, “Russia didn’t sway the election. Period.” But it is correct to say Russia tried to sway the election against Hillary Clinton.

The OP made the initial assertion, I just countered it. The evidence so far is that the Russians didn't favor one candidate over another. Plus, you have to remember, the dossier which was gathered using Russian sources, was meant to damage Trump.

 

[MAGAnificent]

Millions of dollars in free Russian advertisements targeting swing states with Trump's MAGA message most certainly had an influence. Denial must run deep in RW land.

Millions of dollars were spent by the Russians campaigning against Trump as well. Stop the hyperbole narrative nonsense and accept that the Russians were attempting to sow discord in our election system, nothing more.

 

[MAGAnificent]

Doesn't it piss you off that they tried? Don't you get more pissed off wondering who else will try next time?

The Russians have been trying at least since the cold war. Not only against us, but other western nations as well. What would you like Trump do do? Declare war on Russia?

 

[MAGAnificent]

They paid people to dress up like Hillary Clinton and be locked up in a Jail-cell type cage at Trump rallies.

But certainly this had no influence on the outcome.

I have though Hillary belonged in jail since the early 1990s. What's your point?

 

[MAGAnificent]

Only if it doesn't affect the right. If this **** happened and Obama got elected, the whole of the United States would implode.

Could you imagine? If it was found that the Russians interfered and got Obama elected? What if the Russians interfered and got Hillary elected? :lol: :lol:

But then the russians did not get Trump elected. What's your point?

 

[MAGAnificent]

What about the wire fraud? What about the identity theft? What about the hackings(though that was not part of this indictment)? This is not a free speech issue, it is a criminal issue, as in people breaking our laws. Your attempts to spin it into a free speech issue to defend your dear Trump is laughable and sad.

What about the hacking? If the Hillary campaign had been on the up and up, they would have turned the hacked server over to the FBI when requested for forensic analysis. They refused to do so. What was the Hillary campaign attempting to hide?

 

[Grand Mal]

To be honest I'm conflicted. As an American yes, it does piss me off that the Russians tried to interfere. However also as an American all the advertising and words is just free speech. A Right that I apply to one and all no matter where they are in the world. Which should I put above the other? Country? Or Rights? That is the dilemma that I have.

I kinda don't think your founding fathers had foreign agents and spies in mind when they wrote, "Congress shall make no laws..." I think a law against a foreign government meddling in your electoral process would be acceptable to them.

 

[Taylor]

That's your response? I showed you proof of my claim after you questioned it, and this is how you respond?

My responses are directed at your implication that it influenced the election. You have shown no proof of that, and certainly won't find any from Mueller.

 

[Grand Mal]

Of course it does. But being upset at Russia does not change the legitimacy of the election as the political left would like us to think. No one can prove if the Russians swayed even one vote. Ultimately, the election was lost by Hillary Clinton because...SHE WAS HILLARY CLINTON! End of story.

I know the right was running around dismissing Russia's influence and saying things like "the 1980's called and they want their international policy back."

Oh...wait...that was Obama.

Maybe it is time the left put a sock in it. We've been correctly identifying real problems while the left is consumed with Bruce Jenner or whatever HE calls HIMSELF today. Why don't you go play gender renaming games while the adults deal with the real world problems.

Shotgun approach, huh?
First off, why do you think I think Russian interference changed the election result? I know for a fact you've never heard me say that, so maybe you stick that one where it belongs.
Second, what the hell has Bruce Jenner or whatever to do with this?
Third, you're conservative. Conservatives don't actually do anything, they just undo what liberals have done, if they can. Liberals do, conservatives complain about what liberals do. Same as it ever was.

 

[Lethargic Aptitude]

Rights are human based. Not country based. Countries can certainly suppress Rights. Doesn't mean that humans don't fundamentally deserve them.

A foreign nation does not have the right to spread propaganda in the US. This one country attacking another, who the **** do you think Putin is? Putin is Russia. Putin isnt over here expressing his rights, he is using people to try to destabilize the US. Perhaps you are Russian and that is why you are so concerned about the imaginary rights of a dictatorship?

 

[Lethargic Aptitude]

Could you point to any law that backs up your claim?

Because we seem to follow an international "understanding" that foreign nationals are welcome to express their opinions in other nations. In fact, it's done virtually every day in our world.

If there's no law against it -- and there isn't -- we're going to have to realize that, in our attempt to create a global community, that's exactly what we've done -- created a community where anyone, from any nation, can voice an opinion about another nation.

If we want to stop them -- we'll have to adapt something similar to North Korea, who regularly blocks outside media and bans the internet.

Is that what you want for us?

Dont conflate my argument with some willy nilly crap that you made up. Putin has no right to send propaganda into the US. Putin has no right to free speech in the US. Putin isnt just some foreign national FFS, he is the authoritarian dictator of Russia. Putin is attacking us, not making some speech that you think should be protected. What we are talking about has nothing to do with what you are presenting me.

 

[ksu_aviator]

Shotgun approach, huh?
First off, why do you think I think Russian interference changed the election result? I know for a fact you've never heard me say that, so maybe you stick that one where it belongs.

I never said you did. I said "the political left".

Second, what the hell has Bruce Jenner or whatever to do with this?

It was an example of the not so relevant priorities of the left.

Third, you're conservative. Conservatives don't actually do anything, they just undo what liberals have done, if they can. Liberals do, conservatives complain about what liberals do. Same as it ever was.

That is doing stuff. Pay attention. Trump undid Obama era policies and now the economy works again.

Liberal political test:

Q: When confronted with an undesirable situation do you...
A. Create more government
B. Create more government
C. Create more government
D. Create more government
E. All of the above

News flash! There are answers other than create more government. We need massive deregulation and massive spending cuts to restore freedom to this country. You may consider restoring freedom as doing nothing, but our country exists because people gave their lives to provide us with freedom. It is time we stopped giving it away to solve problems we can solve on our own. Use a little imagination. Don't get stuck in the box of liberalism that has four walls a floor and ceiling built solely on government regulation.

 

[calamity]

It's actually brown and it's a pleasant font.

This is brown

 

[Grand Mal]

I never said you did. I said "the political left".



It was an example of the not so relevant priorities of the left.



That is doing stuff. Pay attention. Trump undid Obama era policies and now the economy works again.

Liberal political test:

Q: When confronted with an undesirable situation do you...
A. Create more government
B. Create more government
C. Create more government
D. Create more government
E. All of the above

News flash! There are answers other than create more government. We need massive deregulation and massive spending cuts to restore freedom to this country. You may consider restoring freedom as doing nothing, but our country exists because people gave their lives to provide us with freedom. It is time we stopped giving it away to solve problems we can solve on our own. Use a little imagination. Don't get stuck in the box of liberalism that has four walls a floor and ceiling built solely on government regulation.

The economy is doing fine because Trump hasn't managed to torpedo the recovery that's been happening since 'way back in Obama's watch.
As for 'more government', the biggest increase in the size of the US government happens under Republican administrations. Think Department of Homeland Security. Think Patriot Act.
What did Trump campaign on? `Build the wall! Repeal and replace! Lock her up!" Getting that stuff done, are they? Been 'day 1' for awhile, seems like.

 

[Fearandloathing]

According to Rosenstein it didn't affect the outcome. But I guess you will ignore the DAG of the DOJ....cause, ya know....TRUMP! :roll:

Had this happened in Canada you would be laughing at us, and justifiably so.

I would be dying of embarrassment if what is the absolute core of our democracy, the voting booth.

OK! Some people say it didn't affect the election. But "so what?" as a reaction says to the entire world "hey, let's see if we CAN!"

Instead of excusing this **** because it looks bad for Trump, but maybe those in power should be looking for ways to shut it down, not encourage more.

 

[ksu_aviator]

The economy is doing fine because Trump hasn't managed to torpedo the recovery that's been happening since 'way back in Obama's watch.

Oh my. First, the economic recovery was hampered by Obama. It has been acknowledged repeatedly. Here are just a few:

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/may/31/obamas-regulations-in-2016-to-drain-economy-by-2-t/
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/01/us/politics/trump-businesses-regulation-economic-growth.html
https://www.usnews.com/opinion/deba...cy-will-be-slow-growth-and-government-control

As for 'more government', the biggest increase in the size of the US government happens under Republican administrations. Think Department of Homeland Security. Think Patriot Act.

Second, that is a blatantly false statement. Let's disregard the fact that public defense is a legitimate government function and focus on the real numbers. The GE/P ratio was a steady 7.3% (give or take) since Ronald Reagan. Under Obama, it fell to 6.9% but that was because population growth plunged, leaving the government with less revenue and an exploding deficit that was only reigned in a little bit by the sequester.

What did Trump campaign on? `Build the wall! Repeal and replace! Lock her up!" Getting that stuff done, are they? Been 'day 1' for awhile, seems like.

The wall is going to get done. I wish they would lock her up, we need some real accountability in DC. But what they have gotten done has done our country good. The economy is moving. Small businesses are growing. Minority unemployment is plummeting. I mean, you are for a good economy, small businesses and minorities aren't you?

 

[Grand Mal]

Oh my. First, the economic recovery was hampered by Obama. It has been acknowledged repeatedly. Here are just a few:

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/may/31/obamas-regulations-in-2016-to-drain-economy-by-2-t/
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/01/us/politics/trump-businesses-regulation-economic-growth.html
https://www.usnews.com/opinion/deba...cy-will-be-slow-growth-and-government-control




Second, that is a blatantly false statement. Let's disregard the fact that public defense is a legitimate government function and focus on the real numbers. The GE/P ratio was a steady 7.3% (give or take) since Ronald Reagan. Under Obama, it fell to 6.9% but that was because population growth plunged, leaving the government with less revenue and an exploding deficit that was only reigned in a little bit by the sequester.



The wall is going to get done. I wish they would lock her up, we need some real accountability in DC. But what they have gotten done has done our country good. The economy is moving. Small businesses are growing. Minority unemployment is plummeting. I mean, you are for a good economy, small businesses and minorities aren't you?

https://www.cbpp.org/research/economy/chart-book-the-legacy-of-the-great-recession

https://www.ft.com/content/b5b764cc-d657-11e6-944b-e7eb37a6aa8e

 

[Kal'Stang]

I kinda don't think your founding fathers had foreign agents and spies in mind when they wrote, "Congress shall make no laws..." I think a law against a foreign government meddling in your electoral process would be acceptable to them.

But they did have humans in mind when they wrote that.

But I do agree that they wouldn't have liked a foreign government meddling either. Neither do I. But there are other ways to stop such without violating Rights.

 

[Kal'Stang]

A foreign nation does not have the right to spread propaganda in the US. This one country attacking another, who the **** do you think Putin is? Putin is Russia. Putin isnt over here expressing his rights, he is using people to try to destabilize the US. Perhaps you are Russian and that is why you are so concerned about the imaginary rights of a dictatorship?

Humans do have a Right to spread whatever propaganda that they want. Nations don't I agree. Humans do.

 

[Kal'Stang]

Had this happened in Canada you would be laughing at us, and justifiably so.

I would be dying of embarrassment if what is the absolute core of our democracy, the voting booth.

OK! Some people say it didn't affect the election. But "so what?" as a reaction says to the entire world "hey, let's see if we CAN!"

Instead of excusing this **** because it looks bad for Trump, but maybe those in power should be looking for ways to shut it down, not encourage more.

No I wouldn't. Why would I laugh at Canada if it had happened to you guys? That would be wrong.

 

[GDViking]

Cool your jets Redress. That is the easy part to condemn. The hard part is what most people are considering as possibly having the biggest effect in influencing the election...which was all the advertising and words used by the Russians.

And to be quite honest I find it to be highly ironic that liberals are outraged at people breaking our laws when they uphold illegal immigrants as reasons that its OK to break the same laws that these Russians just broke. (minus the hackings)

I think maybe you forgot espionage and putting several foreign agents in high positions of our government, including president...

 

[Moderate Right]

Trump and his minions are pretending that yesterday's indictments mean nothing. In fact, the Dotard is trying to argue that the indictment proves Russians did not sway the election his way---an amazing bit of denial that only an idiot would conclude or could possibly believe. Anyway, this article states the obvious.

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/cnn/

 

[GDViking]

I have though Hillary belonged in jail since the early 1990s. What's your point?

Trump has belonged in prison since 78 when he first started laundering money for Russians,.

What's your point?

 

[Lethargic Aptitude]

Humans do have a Right to spread whatever propaganda that they want. Nations don't I agree. Humans do.

And what is Putins position in all this? Merely a human with rights or the ruler of a nation who has ambitions against the US? Putin is nothing more than the ruler of a nation, foremost he represents a government that he solely has control of. Again Putin has no right to free speech in the US. This isnt the same as some asshole white nationalist in the south saying some stupid crap. What we are talking about is a intelligence operation by a foreign nation employing aggressive propagandist strategy to destabilize the US from within. Its an act of war and should be treated as such. Congress and the President need to act on this threat right now. So far the President is only saying stupid crap and isnt at all leading in the fight that should be lead against an aggressive foreign nation operating within our borders.

And here you are trying to make it look like a ****ing free speech issue? FFS that is one of the stupidest arguments that I have seen yet.

 

[MAGAnificent]

Trump has belonged in prison since 78 when he first started laundering money for Russians,.

What's your point?

Making it up as you go along.