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Why such fear of Trump's re-election?

Rickeroo said:
I'm not sure what the democrats are worried about. With Bernie currently in the lead, it looks like it will be Bernie v Trump in November.

Everyone knows all you need to do is tax the rich and everyone gets everything for free. It's a fact of nature.

Not even Putin can convince us otherwise. Not even Russian bots on Facebook. Why the concern? Start planning for Bernie's inauguration!

The lady on the phone is like Bernie, and all of us Americans are the lemonade stand guy:

YouTube

I like free stuff yay!
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This forum needs more adults, fewer teenagers.
 
Craig234 said:
Some options for funding are here:

https://www.sanders.senate.gov/download/options-to-finance-medicare-for-all?inline=file
Click to expand...


About sixty-five percent of this funding..is spent on publicly financed health care programs

if we do nothing and maintain our current dysfunctional system that we will spend
$49 trillion over the next decade on health care

Business as usual over 10 years: $31.85T already publicly funded, $17.15T privately funded.

I initially looked through the whole thing, but I'm going to need help understanding the premise behind these two revenue-raising concepts:

4 percent income-based premium paid by households
Revenue raised: $3.5 trillion over ten years.

Last year the typical working family paid an average of $5,277 in premiums to private health
insurance companies... would pay a 4 percent income-based premium to fund Medicare for All –
just $844 a year

This passage is suspect. Let's say I'm paying a car loan of $5,277 a year. I then reduce my payment to $844 a year. Though I'll no longer pay them $52,770 over 10 years, I tell the bill collectors that I've raised $8,440 in revenue for them over 10 years, rather than telling them they are out $44,330.

Savings from Health Tax Expenditures
Revenue raised: $4.2 trillion over ten years. The biggest health expenditure is the preference that excludes employer-paid premiums from payroll and income taxes. This is a significant tax break that would be eliminated under this plan because all Americans would receive health care through the new
Medicare for All program instead of employer-based health care.


Let's say I'm paying a mortgage of $10,000 a year. I get a tax break of $1500 a year. If I didn't have to pay the mortgage, I would have to pay the $1500 in taxes. I stop paying the $10,000 and instead just pay the $1500 in new taxes, since I no longer get the tax break. The mortgage company starts wondering where their $10,000 is and why I'm not paying. I respond by saying I "raised revenue" by $15,000 over 10 years.

I view the two concepts above as net losses of funding, but Bernie is telling me he's raising money here.
 
Rickeroo said:
Let's say I'm paying a mortgage of $10,000 a year. I get a tax break of $1500 a year. If I didn't have to pay the mortgage, I would have to pay the $1500 in taxes. I stop paying the $10,000 and instead just pay the $1500 in new taxes, since I no longer get the tax break. The mortgage company starts wondering where their $10,000 is
Click to expand...

No, they don't, because there is no more mortgage. This isn't a fundraiser for paying for healthcare, but it is a savings to the recipients.
 
Why such fear of Trump's re-election?

I believe leftists are frightened because of our great economy. Leftists despise success. Leftists hate it when people free themselves of gov't dependency.

Leftists especially hate the thought of not having control over other people's lives. They also cannot stand not having ultimate power.
 
Craig234 said:
No, they don't, because there is no more mortgage. This isn't a fundraiser for paying for healthcare, but it is a savings to the recipients.
Click to expand...

Bernie describes this as 'revenue raised'. I would have much rather seen a "Costs cut by" for these two items. I can't judge his plan.
 
DamnYankee said:
Why such fear of Trump's re-election?

I believe leftists are frightened because of our great economy. Leftists despise success. Leftists hate it when people free themselves of gov't dependency.

Leftists especially hate the thought of not having control over other people's lives. They also cannot stand not having ultimate power.
Click to expand...

right wingers don't know what they are talking about. our warfare-State economy is worse on civil liberty than any welfare-State economy.
 
Rickeroo said:
I initially looked through the whole thing, but I'm going to need help understanding the premise behind these two revenue-raising concepts:

4 percent income-based premium paid by households
Revenue raised: $3.5 trillion over ten years.

Last year the typical working family paid an average of $5,277 in premiums to private health
insurance companies... would pay a 4 percent income-based premium to fund Medicare for All –
just $844 a year

This passage is suspect. Let's say I'm paying a car loan of $5,277 a year. I then reduce my payment to $844 a year. Though I'll no longer pay them $52,770 over 10 years, I tell the bill collectors that I've raised $8,440 in revenue for them over 10 years, rather than telling them they are out $44,330.
Click to expand...

I can't speak for accuracy of the 3.5T figure but to answer your question, I think the key here is that for a $50k 4-person family it will be the savings described in that document. For a $200k income family they will pay MORE via the 4% tax than the $5,277 they would be paying today via premiums. Richer families will be taxed much more to create the extra revenue.

Rickeroo said:
Savings from Health Tax Expenditures
Revenue raised: $4.2 trillion over ten years. The biggest health expenditure is the preference that excludes employer-paid premiums from payroll and income taxes. This is a significant tax break that would be eliminated under this plan because all Americans would receive health care through the new
Medicare for All program instead of employer-based health care.

Let's say I'm paying a mortgage of $10,000 a year. I get a tax break of $1500 a year. If I didn't have to pay the mortgage, I would have to pay the $1500 in taxes. I stop paying the $10,000 and instead just pay the $1500 in new taxes, since I no longer get the tax break. The mortgage company starts wondering where their $10,000 is and why I'm not paying. I respond by saying I "raised revenue" by $15,000 over 10 years.

I view the two concepts above as net losses of funding, but Bernie is telling me he's raising money here.
Click to expand...

This says businesses today get a tax break that will go away. Today if employer is paying $X toward emploees' healthcare, they can take a deduction, but under M4A no such deduction can be taken (since employers are no longer paying for employee healthcare). So employers will be paying higher taxes due to loss of the deduction.

You are right in asking why employers who used to pay 10k toward healthcare should not pay the same amount toward new plan. Well, this specific item just describes the smaller part of the employer payment - the $1500 in this case. As you may have noticed, the very first item in the document tells you the other part: larger employers (over 2M in payroll) would pay the HIGHER of 7.5 percent of payroll OR 75% of what they are currently paying.
 
First, the Trump Corp Tax Cut was yet another GOP, now T-Party boondoggle. Does it appear to in any way shape or form look like it is going to pay down the deficit it created via growth? NOPE....not a hope in hell. We needed a corp tax cut just not one as steep as the one they passed...not by a long shot. Dropping it to a nominal 26% would have been just fine thank you. The difference leaves a $600B hole in revenues we get nothing for....NOTHING.

We are currently running deficit levels of $1T per year all of it in discretionary spending. We had about $400B in discretionary spending that we could afford and we are spending $1.4T instead. So its a problem that is hitting us from both directions. Revenues down, spending up, not enough growth to make up the difference. Notice if you will that after Trump's obvious Sugar High, GDP growth is headed right back to where it was before the Sugar High. What a shocker that is!

I absolutely believe that the interest rates for College Student Loans should be lower. I also believe that we should go back to the kind of support for Education at all levels in this country that was once the norm, maybe we cannot afford to go all the way back. But where we are now is draconian.

We need to abandon Trumpian fiscal policy altogether. It is a disaster. It has not worked and it will not work.....another shocker. All he is doing is creating new debt at a time when we had a stable economy. He is creating new debt in the form of his Corp Tax cuts that is fantasy stimulus as we have witnessed. His fiscal policy is actual worse than his trade policy if that can be believed.

But Bernie's is not any better as he has not offered up the degree of granularity to his plans that would make them believable. He now says his Medicare for All would cost $30T over 10 years. Fortunately IMO Bernie cannot get that passed even if he is President with Dem Majorities in both House and Senate.

His College Debt Forgiveness Plan is no plan at all and is illogical, impractical and undoable. We need to be more inventive about how we handle the College Debt that currently exists. I like the idea forwarded earlier about using Public Service with a percentage of income going to paying down a student's debt. That makes some sense to me. You decided to take the borrowed money. You have to be part of the solution. Just loading it off on the taxpayer is laughably absurd, fiscally shortsighted and just plain wrong!

His free College plan is not a plan either. There is not nearly the granularity there that would allow it to be called a plan. It is at best a broad outline. What is there is far too open ended without any reason to believe that the tax payers would get any more benefit out of paying for these degrees than the students are getting for paying for them. It just shifts the cost burden away from the people making the decisions to spend the money. HOW DOES THAT MAKE ANY SENSE????

The point is that like it not, all of Trump's ugliness aside, his efforts to corruptly maintain and grow power aside, his vulgarity and his ridiculous persona which is now suggestive as our persona internationally, there is not much to distinguish Bernie from Trump. Bernie wants to spend money we don't have with no plans to pay down a growing debt burden that actually is going to fall on the very people that support Bernie. How Trumpian IS THAT!

We are approaching debt burdens that will some time in the next 2-3 decades force us to confront the very real possibility that we are going to have to monetize the debt. That will create a massive change in the fiscal and monetary state of this country. As rampant as the inflation was during the Carter years, the Inflationary spiral we will create will make that one look like a walk in the park. In fact, it will likely return us to what we had then only on a much grander scale. We will have grand scale stagflation.

At some point we have to stop kicking the can down the road. We kicked it down the road and then the Clinton years brought us back to fiscal responsibility. Bush 43 and Obama's monetary and fiscal officials had to stimulate the economy after the 2008 meltdown. But Trump is just spending money willynilly to buy VOTES and lying about it the whole time! Frankly I don't see Bernie much differently. He is just trying to buy them from a different crowd. Bernie engages in half-lies while Trump engages is in your face out and out lies. A quote I have offered here before: "A man who lies hides the truth. A man who tells half-lies has forgotten where he left it."

So to be honest its time to stop electing populists that tell some segment of the Electorate what it wants to hear. It is time to stop electing short term transactional agents playing to the short term transactions that some segment of the Electorate wants. Trump has had his way with the fiscal state of the country. Now we want Bernie to have his way with it? Sorry.....not even remotely rational.
 
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Rickeroo said:
Bernie describes this as 'revenue raised'. I would have much rather seen a "Costs cut by" for these two items. I can't judge his plan.
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Huh, I can't disagree with your comment on that.
 
I'd say liberals are pretty frightened if Trump gets reelected because of the prospects of increasing the conservative majority in the courts, especially the Supreme Court
 
CBuckets said:
I'd say liberals are pretty frightened if Trump gets reelected because of the prospects of increasing the conservative majority in the courts, especially the Supreme Court
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You're right, but they're not 'conservatives', they're corrupt radical plutocrats.
 
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