Why compromise is stupid

[Waddy]

???

Many semi automatic guns are based on a weapon that is fully automatic.


In fact I think I'd go as so far as say MOST semiautomatic guns are based on fully automatic guns, certainly since WWII.

I think you missed the point. Yes, many semiautomatic guns are based on fully automatic weapons, but they can have some dimensional differences, chamber size being a common one. Max size chambers, often found in fully auto weapons, but not in semi-auto versions of the same gun, help to prevent jamming in the fast cycling fully automatics. That results in a larger size case being ejected from the fully auto gun. Usually these cases, especially in larger military caliber guns, like 30-06, 8mm Mauser, 303 British, .45ACP, end up being too deformed to reload. Turtledude seems to have overcome this problem, which is commonly known among reloaders, because he was able to purchase a 9MM sizing die that would return such a case to acceptable dimensions.

I in no way object to fully auto guns. I'm just too cheap to own one. I got into reloading almost 45 years ago because my three boys were shooting up a lot more ammunition than I could afford. So they learned to pick up their brass as well as how to shoot. And because they had to reload everything they shot they became a little more conservative on how much ammo they burned through at the range. A win-win for me.

 

[Fledermaus]

You supplied a link which did not support the initial claim that I requested citations for.

Incorrect.

Please consult the link. It is about a nation that banned firearms for the most part. But lo and behold criminals continue to have guns and have even taken up manufacturing guns.

 

[Digger]

Incorrect.

Please consult the link. It is about a nation that banned firearms for the most part. But lo and behold criminals continue to have guns and have even taken up manufacturing guns.

The link is short on facts. It does discuss illegal gun ownership in Australia. It does provide a number, 30.8%. But who cares what the portion of illegal guns in Australia are manufactured in Australia? The question is, how many guns do the criminals in Australia have, and did it go down or up with the gun laws? Your link specifically says it's providing no information about that.

 

[Rich2018]

Guess you overlooked the Bushmaster but I guess back then they were no big deal. With the cops though.
" Frustrated, several officers commandeered AR15s from a nearby gun store in order to better arm themselves." AR15s to the rescue. Until more showed up with a SWAT team.

Were those AR-15's used ?

Did the SWAT team use AR-15's or something similar ?

Are you scared after watching that movie with all the guns in it? A lot of the movies made by big name actors that are anti gun as hell.

What movie ?


I was saying most guns are scary and make a lot of noise.

 

[TrumpGurl]

So you compromise and give in, and more "common sense" gun control laws are passed. Afterwards:

If gun violence goes up or remains the same, that's evidence that still more gun control laws are needed.

If gun violence goes down, that's evidence that gun control works - hence more gun control laws are needed to reduce gun violence further.

Compromising on gun rights is foolish. Give a filthy leftist an inch, and he'll take a mile and a half every time.

Leftists embody evil. There can be no compromise with them. They must be defeated.

 

[Rich2018]

I think you missed the point. Yes, many semiautomatic guns are based on fully automatic weapons, but they can have some dimensional differences, chamber size being a common one. Max size chambers, often found in fully auto weapons, but not in semi-auto versions of the same gun, help to prevent jamming in the fast cycling fully automatics. That results in a larger size case being ejected from the fully auto gun. Usually these cases, especially in larger military caliber guns, like 30-06, 8mm Mauser, 303 British, .45ACP, end up being too deformed to reload.

Interesting

So you can't modify an AR-15 to fire full auto ?


I was told, during my army days, that the British version of the FN-FAL (the SLR) which was semi-auto only, could be modified to fire full auto with a wooden match stick. But that was the issue SLR, I've no idea if the same was true of the commercially available semi-auto FN-FAL.

 

[Rich2018]

Leftists embody evil. There can be no compromise with them. They must be defeated.

I see you're brand new here, is this your idea of debating ?

 

[Waddy]

Interesting

So you can't modify an AR-15 to fire full auto ?


I was told, during my army days, that the British version of the FN-FAL (the SLR) which was semi-auto only, could be modified to fire full auto with a wooden match stick. But that was the issue SLR, I've no idea if the same was true of the commercially available semi-auto FN-FAL.

You can, but it requires a LOT of modifications. Simply filing down the semi-auto sear or drilling a hole won't do it, even though you might of seen that done on UTube. The gun may "slam fire"; the firing pin will hit the primer before the next round is fully chambered. That can make the gun explode. Full auto guns have what's called an interrupter (also called a disconnector) to hold back the bolt until the next round is fully chambered. They do make "kits' to install on a semi-auto AR15, which include a full auto sear and all the other parts, including the interrupter, but you have to go through the time consuming and very expensive process of registering the gun as a full auto weapon. Now you're talking big money, or big fines.

 

[Rich2018]

You can, but it requires a LOT of modifications. Simply filing down the semi-auto sear or drilling a hole won't do it, even though you might of seen that done on UTube. The gun may "slam fire"; the firing pin will hit the primer before the next round is fully chambered. That can make the gun explode. Full auto guns have what's called an interrupter (also called a disconnector) to hold back the bolt until the next round is fully chambered. They do make "kits' to install on a semi-auto AR15, which include a full auto sear and all the other parts, including the interrupter, but you have to go through the time consuming and very expensive process of registering the gun as a full auto weapon. Now you're talking big money, or big fines.

What about a semi-auto AK-47 clone ?

I've stripped an AK-47 and it seemed super simple.

 

[Waddy]

What about a semi-auto AK-47 clone ?

I've stripped an AK-47 and it seemed super simple.

I'm not too familiar with that rifle, but I suspect it also involves quite a bit of modification to make it full auto. Maybe somebody sells a kit for it. The parts would still need to be fitted, as none of the conversions are simply "drop in" parts. I don't know of a kit company that will sell you a kit unless you have the correct federal paper work. They don't want to go to prison.

The AK47 is a lousy target rifle. For spray and pray (full auto) it's excellent, but the AR15 has it beat hands down for accuracy. Just too much vibration with that AK barrel.

 

[Rich2018]

I'm not too familiar with that rifle, but I suspect it also involves quite a bit of modification to make it full auto. Maybe somebody sells a kit for it. The parts would still need to be fitted, as none of the conversions are simply "drop in" parts. I don't know of a kit company that will sell you a kit unless you have the correct federal paper work. They don't want to go to prison.

The AK47 is a lousy target rifle. For spray and pray (full auto) it's excellent, but the AR15 has it beat hands down for accuracy. Just too much vibration with that AK barrel.

I've fired an stripped a Soviet made AK-74 and Tbh, it was pretty accurate at 100 meters. It's also very easy to strip (you can do it with your eyes closed). Perhaps an engineer can explain how you make a rifle as simple as the AK, a semi-automatic only gun?

I've never handled an Armalite so I don't know how reliable they are but an AK will work almost anywhere whereas there's still stories on the M16 not working in combat.

 

[Waddy]

I've fired an stripped a Soviet made AK-74 and Tbh, it was pretty accurate at 100 meters. It's also very easy to strip (you can do it with your eyes closed). Perhaps an engineer can explain how you make a rifle as simple as the AK, a semi-automatic only gun?

I've never handled an Armalite so I don't know how reliable they are but an AK will work almost anywhere whereas there's still stories on the M16 not working in combat.

The main rifle used now is the M4 version of the M16 (AR). They no longer have problems, at least no more than any weapons system might have. The problems they had early were due to not chrome lining the barrel and using an unsuitable powder. BTW; it's been the service rifle longer than any other rifle in the history of the military. They've worked the bugs out.

Most rifles are accurate to 100 meters, even cheap ones, unless there is a defect. It's at longer ranges that separate the "men from the boys" so to speak. The AR, with a heavy barrel, 62 gr bullets, is capable of 1 MOA at 600 yards. The AK couldn't hit the target reliably at that distance. That's why NOBODY (or almost nobody) shoots them at Camp Perry.

 

[Rich2018]

The main rifle used now is the M4 version of the M16 (AR). They no longer have problems, at least no more than any weapons system might have. The problems they had early were due to not chrome lining the barrel and using an unsuitable powder. BTW; it's been the service rifle longer than any other rifle in the history of the military. They've worked the bugs out.

Most rifles are accurate to 100 meters, even cheap ones, unless there is a defect. It's at longer ranges that separate the "men from the boys" so to speak. The AR, with a heavy barrel, 62 gr bullets, is capable of 1 MOA at 600 yards. The AK couldn't hit the target reliably at that distance. That's why NOBODY (or almost nobody) shoots them at Camp Perry.

At ranges of over 300 meters you can barely see an enemy.

When I was an infantryman we never fired at targets over 300 meters away with the SLR (FN-FAL)
The same was true of the hated SA-80 (I only ever used the iron rights with it)

Remember Pte Jessica Lynch who was captured in Iraq in 2003, didn't her maintenance company have M-16's and not one was functional when they got ambushed ?

 

[beerftw]

Most countries in the Western world.

Two recent examples of countries banning certain guns are Australia and the UK.

The uk and australia do not count as any reasonable restriction, both nations went far enough that joseph stalin and adolph hitlers extreme gun control looked mild by comparison. Countries like germany czech swiss etc have more reasonable gun controls, while australia and britain gun controls are so extreme even stalin would be jealous of how extreme they are.

 

[beerftw]

At ranges of over 300 meters you can barely see an enemy.

When I was an infantryman we never fired at targets over 300 meters away with the SLR (FN-FAL)
The same was true of the hated SA-80 (I only ever used the iron rights with it)

Remember Pte Jessica Lynch who was captured in Iraq in 2003, didn't her maintenance company have M-16's and not one was functional when they got ambushed ?

Infantry is the us army fires at 300 yards, the marines 500 yards, as well as army competitions and often sf. In old army standards it was common to train to 1k-1200 yards for training, going back to 1873, training beyong that is not impossible, infact 100 yards/meters is not that far I can do that with a pistol, 300 is not much more for a standard sized target, as marines can not even pass basic training without doing 500 yards/meters ish, and the m16 is pushing it's effective kill range at 500 yards, it can go much farther but past 500 yards the 5.56 is limited due to accuracy range and energy, so saying you can not fire over 300 meters is bs.

 

[TurtleDude]

You can, but it requires a LOT of modifications. Simply filing down the semi-auto sear or drilling a hole won't do it, even though you might of seen that done on UTube. The gun may "slam fire"; the firing pin will hit the primer before the next round is fully chambered. That can make the gun explode. Full auto guns have what's called an interrupter (also called a disconnector) to hold back the bolt until the next round is fully chambered. They do make "kits' to install on a semi-auto AR15, which include a full auto sear and all the other parts, including the interrupter, but you have to go through the time consuming and very expensive process of registering the gun as a full auto weapon. Now you're talking big money, or big fines.

unless you have an auto sear that was registered before May 19, 1986, you cannot legally convert an AR to full auto and prison time is usually involved if you do so. a slightly longer firing pin has been used by some on 9mm versions because on a 556 it is extremely dangerous and on the 9mm it will run until magazine is empty

 

[Nap]

There's nothing wrong with praying to Saint Nineteen Eleven. Ford is crap, though.

We may disagree on quite alot, but glad to see we agree on this.

 

[RF667799]

You can, but it requires a LOT of modifications. Simply filing down the semi-auto sear or drilling a hole won't do it, even though you might of seen that done on UTube. The gun may "slam fire"; the firing pin will hit the primer before the next round is fully chambered. That can make the gun explode. Full auto guns have what's called an interrupter (also called a disconnector) to hold back the bolt until the next round is fully chambered. They do make "kits' to install on a semi-auto AR15, which include a full auto sear and all the other parts, including the interrupter, but you have to go through the time consuming and very expensive process of registering the gun as a full auto weapon. Now you're talking big money, or big fines.

Minor quibble. The disconnector holds back the hammer until the next round is fully chambered. The idea being that the gun will be in battery (bolt fully locked) before it can be fired again. Testing the disconnector is part of the function check of AR pattern rifles in fact. Ride the bolt forward with the selector in "fire" (or "semi" in the case of a select fire version) and then release the trigger. You should hear sort of a "thunk" sound as the disconnector releases the hammer into the sear.

 

[Fledermaus]

At ranges of over 300 meters you can barely see an enemy.

When I was an infantryman we never fired at targets over 300 meters away with the SLR (FN-FAL)
The same was true of the hated SA-80 (I only ever used the iron rights with it)

Remember Pte Jessica Lynch who was captured in Iraq in 2003, didn't her maintenance company have M-16's and not one was functional when they got ambushed ?

Blatantly incorrect.

500 yard line prone was always good for major points at the rifle range.

 

[RF667799]

unless you have an auto sear that was registered before May 19, 1986, you cannot legally convert an AR to full auto and prison time is usually involved if you do so. a slightly longer firing pin has been used by some on 9mm versions because on a 556 it is extremely dangerous and on the 9mm it will run until magazine is empty

That bypasses the safety feature of the inertia firing pin. With the hammer resting on the pin, it shouldn't be quite long enough to reach through the face of the bolt. It usually takes the sharp strike of the hammer dropping on the pin for it to reach the primer of the cartridge. That's why simply removing the disconnector won't result in a full auto gun- or a very erratic one at best. The firing pin simply following the bolt into battery generally won't have enough energy to overcome the inertia of the firing pin.

 

[Waddy]

Minor quibble. The disconnector holds back the hammer until the next round is fully chambered. The idea being that the gun will be in battery (bolt fully locked) before it can be fired again. Testing the disconnector is part of the function check of AR pattern rifles in fact. Ride the bolt forward with the selector in "fire" (or "semi" in the case of a select fire version) and then release the trigger. You should hear sort of a "thunk" sound as the disconnector releases the hammer into the sear.

I could have been more specific I guess, but I think he got the idea.

 

[Waddy]

That bypasses the safety feature of the inertia firing pin. With the hammer resting on the pin, it shouldn't be quite long enough to reach through the face of the bolt. It usually takes the sharp strike of the hammer dropping on the pin for it to reach the primer of the cartridge. That's why simply removing the disconnector won't result in a full auto gun- or a very erratic one at best. The firing pin simply following the bolt into battery generally won't have enough energy to overcome the inertia of the firing pin.

I'm not so sure the experts agree with that. I was taught to use either military grade (hard)primers or commercial CCI hard primers just because of the possibility of the firing pin slamming the primer. On other guns, with fixed firing pins, Federal or other soft primers work just fine.

 

[RF667799]

At ranges of over 300 meters you can barely see an enemy.

When I was an infantryman we never fired at targets over 300 meters away with the SLR (FN-FAL)
The same was true of the hated SA-80 (I only ever used the iron rights with it)

Remember Pte Jessica Lynch who was captured in Iraq in 2003, didn't her maintenance company have M-16's and not one was functional when they got ambushed ?

Any non-functional rifles in that maintenance unit were probably due to those rifles not being maintained, ironically enough.

 

[RF667799]

I'm not so sure the experts agree with that. I was taught to use either military grade (hard)primers or commercial CCI hard primers just because of the possibility of the firing pin slamming the primer. On other guns, with fixed firing pins, Federal or other soft primers work just fine.

You know what? I think you might be right on the AR rifles. I just pulled the bolt carrier group from mine and checked, and the firing pin will protrude past the bolt face at rest, and in battery. I should have suspected on account of it lacking a firing pin spring.

I do know that a long time ago I experimented with removing the disconnector from a Mini-14 and it wouldn't go full auto. I wish I still had one to look at now.

 

[TurtleDude]

I'm not so sure the experts agree with that. I was taught to use either military grade (hard)primers or commercial CCI hard primers just because of the possibility of the firing pin slamming the primer. On other guns, with fixed firing pins, Federal or other soft primers work just fine.

most of your top pistol pros are using federal primers (or if you can get them-UNplated CCI commercial primers) since they are more reliable than the harder Winchester, or CCI plated primers. When I was a hard core PPC shooter, we shot double action SW model 10s (heavily modified) with butter smooth Double actions and winchester primers would often fail to fire. On my CZ Custom steel gun, I use only federal or commercial CCI primers. Now I don't run them in a PCC carbine for the same reason I do run them in my race pistols