What In The Human Species Necessitates a God?

[grip]

Everyone dies. It's a certainty in life. To live is to die and to die is to have lived. I've seen death many times and been around dying people and how is it terrifying?

You don't know that you've never died, so you have no idea what happens at that moment. You only see what happens to a body. Wait till you get a death causing malady, then you won't have to ask what's so scary about that level of pain and distress. If people were so unafraid of death they'd be committing suicide on a huge scale to avoid the dying process and suffering. But you don't see that because big talk is just big talk.

"Good" is subjective. Why would I give all of my possessions away? They're mine.

You were the one making all kinds of subjective definitions about selfish and good, judging my motives. Using words that you don't even know the meaning of or unwilling to back them up?

You can attempt to negate all emotion and embrace reason, logic, and empiricism. That doesn't require "robot-esque" qualities.

Reason, logic and empiricism already embrace emotion as part of their process. You can't rationally separate thought from the human brain, it's the source and origin of those terms. You only *think* you're special.

 

[zgoldsmith23]

You don't know that you've never died, so you have no idea what happens at that moment. You only see what happens to a body. Wait till you get a death causing malady, then you won't have to ask what's so scary about that level of pain and distress. If people were so unafraid of death they'd be committing suicide on a huge scale to avoid the dying process and suffering. But you don't see that because big talk is just big talk.

There's a difference in embracing death and not fearing death. It's foolish to think I've died previously, as you well know.

You were the one making all kinds of subjective definitions about selfish and good, judging my motives. Using words that you don't even know the meaning of or unwilling to back them up?

I know the definitions of selfish and good is so overly subjective that trying to give it an objective definition is foolish.

Reason, logic and empiricism already embrace emotion as part of their process. You can't rationally separate thought from the human brain, it's the source and origin of those terms. You only *think* you're special.

I know they embrace certain parts of emotion, that's why I said "attempt to negate" and not "negate entirely" there are difference, now who's struggling with comprehension? I certainly don't think I'm special, either. I'm 1 out of a current 7 billion out of a previous 100 trillion? Nothing special there.

 

[Knowledge=power]

1. Jesus said to those who overcome I will allow to sit with me on my fathers throne and rule. He didn't say I'd force you to kneel too me. God said to me every knee shall bow but he didn't say in heaven. I think your death is the bowed knee..

Hmm, ok. I didn't know that.

2. If you're already in the ultimate physical pleasure I think anything else would be trading down..

It is hard to imagine being in a state of ultimate physical pleasure for eternity. Eventually one would lose bearing on what is normal and what is ultimate pleasure.

3. I agree, so in the mean time I'll have hope.

I've pondered this before. It's like playing a free lottery ticket. Why not play if it's free?

 

[grip]

There's a difference in embracing death and not fearing death. It's foolish to think I've died previously, as you well know.

Most people with any sense fear death it's how we stay alive, survival instinct. But if you're saying the actual summation of death doesn't scare you, then that I understand. It's an inevitable thing we have no control over.

I know the definitions of selfish and good is so overly subjective that trying to give it an objective definition is foolish.

Why would you think me wanting a better existence is selfish? It takes nothing from anybody for someone to prosper, unless they're depriving others from sustenance with their wealth. Hopefully I wouldn't do that but it is a competitive world. Nature isn't completely fair or equal on all grounds.

I know they embrace certain parts of emotion, that's why I said "attempt to negate" and not "negate entirely" there are difference, now who's struggling with comprehension? I certainly don't think I'm special, either. I'm 1 out of a current 7 billion out of a previous 100 trillion? Nothing special there.

I'll accept that explanation. I think you're pretty smart but you're going to hate the price of wisdom. You can't possibly know any better than I did what it's like to age, very humbling and hard.

 

[grip]

Hmm, ok. I didn't know that.




It is hard to imagine being in a state of ultimate physical pleasure for eternity. Eventually one would lose bearing on what is normal and what is ultimate pleasure.



I've pondered this before. It's like playing a free lottery ticket. Why not play if it's free?

People have a strange concept of what a wise supreme being expects. It's probably going to be surprisingly good and fair.

Nah, an all powerful being could easily put you in a state of unending pleasure. That would be easy it's the appreciation part we're going thru now that's difficult.

Might as well have good expectations because it doesn't hurt anything.

 

[zgoldsmith23]

Most people with any sense fear death it's how we stay alive, survival instinct. But if you're saying the actual summation of death doesn't scare you, then that I understand. It's an inevitable thing we have no control over.

Exactly. So why be afraid of something that you cannot control in the slightest other than avoiding some instances of a pre-natural aging death?

Why would you think me wanting a better existence is selfish? It takes nothing from anybody for someone to prosper, unless they're depriving others from sustenance with their wealth. Hopefully I wouldn't do that but it is a competitive world. Nature isn't completely fair or equal on all grounds.

Not wanting a better existence isn't selfish, but wanting a second "existence) (i.e. an afterlife) is selfish. Celebrate the one you have, ignore all foolish, ill-conceived other ideas.

I'll accept that explanation. I think you're pretty smart but you're going to hate the price of wisdom. You can't possibly know any better than I did what it's like to age, very humbling and hard.

I've only aged as much as I can - Planck time by Planck time.

 

[Knowledge=power]

People have a strange concept of what a wise supreme being expects. It's probably going to be surprisingly good and fair.

People have no concept, they just make it up. Staments beginning with "It's probably" will vary person to person.

Nah, an all powerful being could easily put you in a state of unending pleasure. That would be easy it's the appreciation part we're going thru now that's difficult.

So did God create you with sin so he could watch you suffer before he gives you eternal life?... Seems like a sadist.

Might as well have good expectations because it doesn't hurt anything.

Expectations can be dangerous, but in this case, I guess it's ok since the alternative is simply death with no afterlife. However, for heaven to exist, there must be a hell, as the bible says. What if you ended up there?

 

[Perotista]

Wrong. Let's also not forget the selfishness behind the religious motivation in their reward "afterlife."

LOL, You left me shaking my head on that one. So it is selfish to want to reach the afterlife? In other words what you are saying, if it weren't for the reward of heaven or where ever these people wouldn't be so nice? I have known a lot of real nice Buddhist, their quest is not the after life but enlightenment. What about some of the tribes of Laos who just want to appease if that is the right word, the spirits of their ancestors. Selfishness, now that is the first time I heard that one.

 

[grip]

Exactly. So why be afraid of something that you cannot control in the slightest other than avoiding some instances of a pre-natural aging death?

I agree with this not to worry about what hasn't happened yet or can't be controlled.

Not wanting a better existence isn't selfish, but wanting a second "existence) (i.e. an afterlife) is selfish. Celebrate the one you have, ignore all foolish, ill-conceived other ideas.

No, it's natural to not want to die. A continued existence and possibly improved one wouldn't make me feel greedy, nor most people. I do enjoy this one and don't worry about what comes next but it is something that as you approach the end will come up, trust me. When I was young I couldn't even imagine not existing. It literally didn't even seem realistic or plausible.

I've only aged as much as I can - Planck time by Planck time.

I know, I don't hold against you and you're already wiser than I was at your age. All things work themselves out in time Planck you very much.

 

[grip]

People have no concept, they just make it up. Staments beginning with "It's probably" will vary person to person.

True, I really don't know more than anyone else for sure but I just don't see unrealistic or unreasonable things occurring as a whole. Too much of life does make sense to believe an author of it has some strange concept we can't imagine.

So did God create you with sin so he could watch you suffer before he gives you eternal life?... Seems like a sadist.

I think we're born with no knowledge but instincts and we grow and learn from education, circumstances and experiences. Those lessons and growing pains just aren't always going to be pleasant and easy though life is still better than anything else we know. Once we've matured this shell is broken, so we can inherit a permanent and perfected one. I think if everything came without suffering or payment we'd place no value on it.

Expectations can be dangerous, but in this case, I guess it's ok since the alternative is simply death with no afterlife. However, for heaven to exist, there must be a hell, as the bible says. What if you ended up there?

I think this life is the closest thing to hell that we need. I don't believe there will be a permanent punishment for temporary crimes, doesn't make sense or seem just. But there maybe a purgatory wouldn't want to push it.

 

[zgoldsmith23]

LOL, You left me shaking my head on that one. So it is selfish to want to reach the afterlife? In other words what you are saying, if it weren't for the reward of heaven or where ever these people wouldn't be so nice? I have known a lot of real nice Buddhist, their quest is not the after life but enlightenment. What about some of the tribes of Laos who just want to appease if that is the right word, the spirits of their ancestors. Selfishness, now that is the first time I heard that one.

It's motivation by fear. The fear that you may be punished.

 

[zgoldsmith23]

I agree with this not to worry about what hasn't happened yet or can't be controlled.

Exactly, so it's not terrifying. It just is.

No, it's natural to not want to die. A continued existence and possibly improved one wouldn't make me feel greedy, nor most people. I do enjoy this one and don't worry about what comes next but it is something that as you approach the end will come up, trust me. When I was young I couldn't even imagine not existing. It literally didn't even seem realistic or plausible.

Realistic or plausible? You bet it is. To say that the universe and everything in it came in to existence when you did is quite the solipsistic position.

I know, I don't hold against you and you're already wiser than I was at your age. All things work themselves out in time Planck you very much.

Well, maybe a bit more, but never any less :lol:

 

[Perotista]

It's motivation by fear. The fear that you may be punished.

Works for most dictators to contain their flock.

 

[What if...?]

Let's go back in time to the day when mankind first became capable of reason. I cannot help but believe hunger, dispair, fear and ignorance of the surroundings naturally made man look to a God like idea in order to ease the suffering. Why doesn't man simply say, "life sucks but it's all we got". Instead he says, "oh no, this life isn't the one that's really important, it's the life after this one that gonna count"! He creates symbols them calls them God of water, God of light, God of food, etc. He is basically at a loss about how to express his "idea" until...... a person comes along with the gift of gab. Then and only then do folks listen and follow. They follow not so much for the substance of what is being said rather for a sense of hope the speaker tells them about. People with hope are naturally happier than folks with none therefore this idea grows. Who wants to be with a depressed person?! Then there is the good feeling bonding with others gives us so that too perpetuates this thing until there are millions world wide willing to die and kill to keep this thing in motion. I wonder from time to time how many Gods has man created throughout history. Some have come and gone while others remain.

Man is the only animal aware of its own mortality.

Couple that with the cerebral cortex and its pretty inevitable.

 

[grip]

Exactly, so it's not terrifying. It just is.



Realistic or plausible? You bet it is. To say that the universe and everything in it came in to existence when you did is quite the solipsistic position.



Well, maybe a bit more, but never any less :lol:

I'm not solipsistic but to some degree our minds are the one thing of which we can be the most sure. Other peoples minds exist but you can live with someone a lifetime and still not know them. And the external world exists but we can never know all there is even if we lived many lifetimes. There's just too much to experience and learn. Things outside of our minds only become actionable when we perceive them. Meaning that the highest form of reality is thru perception and thought.

I think there's a primal energy from which the rest of the universe gets its substance. Physicists have many theories inline with this all in one idea, sort of a super relativity. This underlying energy responsible for all other energies (maybe dark) could also be the source of consciousness. We're just physical containers or biological machines that once we're operating properly (blood flow, oxygen, chemical/electrical energy, etc) our brains plug into some quantum field, creating self awareness.

The brains awareness or energy field may work in conjunction with the physical substance/energy of the universe to form our individual consciousness and reality. The universe is like a complicated software program made of energy that uses our brains as a CPU to complete the circuit. We cannot exist without the physical universe but it can exist without our conscious input though only as a program. The program was running before we entered the picture and may well run after we're gone but it changes thru our individual perceptions and comes into focus or alive. Could be the source only runs this program as an experiment to see what existence thru multiple biological machines is like.

Not magic but a science or knowledge about the universe beyond us for now. Science may never figure this out completely but it may get close enough to point and say that's the primal energy or source of it all.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

Let's go back in time to the day when mankind first became capable of reason. I cannot help but believe hunger, dispair, fear and ignorance of the surroundings naturally made man look to a God like idea in order to ease the suffering. Why doesn't man simply say, "life sucks but it's all we got". Instead he says, "oh no, this life isn't the one that's really important, it's the life after this one that gonna count"! He creates symbols them calls them God of water, God of light, God of food, etc. He is basically at a loss about how to express his "idea" until...... a person comes along with the gift of gab. Then and only then do folks listen and follow. They follow not so much for the substance of what is being said rather for a sense of hope the speaker tells them about. People with hope are naturally happier than folks with none therefore this idea grows. Who wants to be with a depressed person?! Then there is the good feeling bonding with others gives us so that too perpetuates this thing until there are millions world wide willing to die and kill to keep this thing in motion. I wonder from time to time how many Gods has man created throughout history. Some have come and gone while others remain.

Well - if you go back . . . *way* back to the beginning of things it probably came from a few things: the need to survive.
Ok - just one thing.

To survive you need: Food, water, shelter, successful procreation.
Ergo - early man needed to influence, positively: animals and vegetation for food, ways to obtain water, earth or vegetation for shelter, fertility related concerns for procreation.

Having *something* (anything) to pray to or "do" in an effort to "positively influence these processes" makes people feel like they're actually involved or doing something for the betterment. . . as opposed to just sitting back and letting nature just take it's course. So there comes your 'god' or 'goddess' to go to for positive-influence. Or an activity (like a rain dance or a sacrifice) you can do to somehow shift things in your favor.

Of course - only later on do humans learn how to actually influence these things directly - developing methods of farming/irrigation, medical care to ensure better health and that effects procreation (etc), methods of constructing better shelters . . . and so on. Our advancements slowly increase our actual ability to positively influence these basic needs.

We could say that people have moved forward with revolutions:

1) Religious revolution
2) Medical revolution
3) Agricultural revolution
4) Industrial revolution
5) Knowledge revolution

And what we're seeing today in some areas - a decline of the earlier revolution (religion) - is because it's no longer an active component in the 4 main processes we rely on to move forward as a species.

 

[lizzie]

You're granting selective freedom. Leading a good life is abstaining from causing another individual harm? I'd bet you'd say all bets were off is someone else caused an individual harm, then it's fair to cause them harm, no? Would that not be hypocrisy?

How is it selective? As for your observation that all bets would be off in the case of someone causing harm to others, you betcha. If you can't abide by laws of civility, then you're off the island.

You never answered my question. What does it hurt for me to have my belief system, if I'm causing you no harm? You self-identify as libertarian. Do you understand what that entails?

 

[Paralogic]

"with its own physical properties" what part of that statement you did not understand so you can beleive in multiple universe but a god or gods is extremly far fetch and what about black matter black holes white holes and that certain stars with just a spoon full of their matter is tons.

That is just nonsense. Admit it.

 

[Jerry]

Let's go back in time to the day when mankind first became capable of reason. I cannot help but believe hunger, dispair, fear and ignorance of the surroundings naturally made man look to a God like idea in order to ease the suffering. Why doesn't man simply say, "life sucks but it's all we got". Instead he says, "oh no, this life isn't the one that's really important, it's the life after this one that gonna count"! He creates symbols them calls them God of water, God of light, God of food, etc. He is basically at a loss about how to express his "idea" until...... a person comes along with the gift of gab. Then and only then do folks listen and follow. They follow not so much for the substance of what is being said rather for a sense of hope the speaker tells them about. People with hope are naturally happier than folks with none therefore this idea grows. Who wants to be with a depressed person?! Then there is the good feeling bonding with others gives us so that too perpetuates this thing until there are millions world wide willing to die and kill to keep this thing in motion. I wonder from time to time how many Gods has man created throughout history. Some have come and gone while others remain.

The GOD Part Of The Brain - Matthew Alper

 

[Paralogic]

Well gee, has science ever been wrong?

Never.

Scientists have, when they put their ego and wishful thinking ahead of logic and reason, but Science is always right, always true and always the only way for the human intelligence to comprehend reality.

 

[Jerry]

Let's go back in time to the day when mankind first became capable of reason.

The day God created man, ok.

I cannot help but believe hunger, dispair, fear and ignorance of the surroundings naturally made man look to a God like idea in order to ease the suffering.

Man started out in perfect bliss, literally walking and talking with God in person. Man wanted for nothing and there was no sorrow.

Why doesn't man simply say, "life sucks but it's all we got". Instead he says, "oh no, this life isn't the one that's really important, it's the life after this one that gonna count"! He creates symbols them calls them God of water, God of light, God of food, etc.

Yup, all are the result of original sin.

Some have come and gone while others remain.

That's why 'the' God is called everlasting. Something real doesn't disappear just because you don't believe in it anymore. Try disbelieving in gravity and jump off a cliff, see how far that get's you.

 

[zgoldsmith23]

Works for most dictators to contain their flock.

Exactly. Celestial dictators are still dictators.

 

[zgoldsmith23]

How is it selective? As for your observation that all bets would be off in the case of someone causing harm to others, you betcha. If you can't abide by laws of civility, then you're off the island.

You never answered my question. What does it hurt for me to have my belief system, if I'm causing you no harm? You self-identify as libertarian. Do you understand what that entails?

Again, then you're being selective. If someone does something you disagree with, they are punished. You're stating it's a goal to avoid causing an individual harm yet you are doing just that. There in lies your hypocrisy and lack of logic.

It may (or may not) hurt to have your belief system. I understand what it entails entirely. Of course you can believe it. That doesn't mean I can't call it "****ing stupid."

EDIT: Here's a decent summery by comedian Patton Oswalt. NSFW!!!

 

[Perotista]

Exactly. Celestial dictators are still dictators.

I don't put them in the same category. With celestial dictators or god or what ever, one is free to believe or not. To live his life according to what the individual thinks the god or celestial dictator to use your phrase wants or expects. With an earthly dictator, there is no choice.

 

[zgoldsmith23]

I don't put them in the same category.

Why not? A dictator is a dictator, everywhere - no?