[W:775]Trump: ‘I think I’d take’ damaging info on 2020 rival from foreign operatives

[Mina]

Except that scenario #1 didn't happen.

It didn't need to happen to be a crime. It had to be solicited. And it was. It is a crime for those associated with a US political campaign to solicit anything of value from foreigners for the campaign. Trump's son, son-in-law, and campaign chair solicited known Russian agents for valuable information about Hillary Clinton for the express purpose of helping the campaign. We'll never know whether they got that information -- all we have is their desperate assurances that they didn't. But it doesn't matter any more than it matters whether a John actually has sex with a prostitute after soliciting her services. The crime is in soliciting it.

Since the claim is that Russia is the great adversary...

You misunderstood the claim. The claim is that campaign finance law makes it a crime to solicit anything of value from a foreigner for a US campaign. That is a law that the Trump campaign broke. The fact that their collusion was with a brutal dictatorship that is hostile to US interests is morally damning, but isn't an element of the crime. The crime would have been committed even if they'd been colluding with a friendly regime.

what happened is that Clinton sought info from Russia

That's not a crime, obviously. It's so strange that right-wingers are unable to figure this out. As explained in my post, it's perfectly legal to buy something of value --information or otherwise-- for a campaign, and there's no rule against it coming from Russia or anywhere else. It's the DONATION and the solicitation thereof that makes it a problem. If Clinton campaign officials had solicited valuable information be GIVEN to the campaign by foreign sources, that would have been a crime. Paying a contractor to gather information for them, by comparison, is standard operating procedure.

I sincerely wonder whether right-wingers get this distinction and are only playing dumb to try to muddy the waters, or whether their partisanship is truly so blinding they can't see something so obvious.

 

[dixon01767]

So you would be fine with Chinese hackers getting any “true” dirt on trump and then giving it to the dem candidate?

Hacking is against the law. Providing information is not.

 

[dixon01767]

It didn't need to happen to be a crime. It had to be solicited. And it was. It is a crime for those associated with a US political campaign to solicit anything of value from foreigners for the campaign. .

Trump didnt solicit the information. They offered it. The Clinton Campaign is the one through Fusion GPS solicited info from the Russians. AND soliciting something of value from foreigners isnt illegal. Its the failing to report what was received that violates campaign finance law.

 

[Mina]

Trump didnt solicit the information.

Trump's campaign solicited it. The offer, by the Russians, did not constitute a crime by the Trump campaign. The crime occurred when the campaign conspired to meet with the Russians to take them up on that offer.

Again, this can be easily understood if we extricate the right-wingers from the partisan political context that clouds their brains. Just picture it in the context of prostitution. If you're driving down the street and a prostitute offers to blow you for money, you've committed no crime. You can't help what offers get shouted your way. However, if you pick up the prostitute, based on that offer for illegal services, and take her back to your room for purposes of receiving that blowjob, then you're guilty of the crime of solicitation, and you don't actually have to get the blowjob to be convicted.

In the same way, the mere fact Russian agents figured the Trump campaign was corrupt enough to accept their help in the campaign was not a crime for the Trump campaign. They can't be held liable for the offers made by Putin's team. When, however, they conspired to meet with the Russian agents for the purposes of receiving that illegal assistance, they were soliciting a campaign finance violation, and broke the law, and that didn't require that they actually get the valuable information they'd hoped to get.

The Clinton Campaign is the one through Fusion GPS solicited info from the Russians

Yes, and very obviously that's perfectly legal. There's no rule against a campaign buying something of value from a foreigner. What's illegal is the solicitation of a donation. See my previous example regarding paper that's either donated by a Chinese source or bought from one at market rates.

Since you're clearly struggling to understand, let's simplify this by taking out the foreign element altogether and just think in terms of other campaign finance rules. For example, when there was a rule against corporations donating to campaigns, did this mean that a campaign broke the law if it, say, bought wireless service for its campaign aides from AT&T? Of course not. Accepting a DONATION of wireless services would have broken the law, but paying market prices, like any other market player, is completely legal. Similarly, if there's a rule against accepting more than $X from a particular donor for a campaign, that is not a rule against paying that person over $X, at market rates, for a campaign service. In the exact same way, although it's illegal to solicit a donation from a foreigner for a US political campaign, it's perfectly legal to pay a foreigner, at market rates, for services to a US political campaign. There's just a lot of strategic misunderstanding among right-wingers, who have been instructed to obscure the Trump campaign corruption by pretending there's something inappropriate about the Clinton campaign having paid for some opposition research.

AND soliciting something of value from foreigners isnt illegal.

It definitely is. Failing to report something of value is a crime, as well, but the solicitation is a crime. The problem here is that right-wingers get their campaign finance law information not from reading the actual campaign finance laws, but rather by watching Fox News, which creates an alternate-universe body of law crafted to exclude any behavior Trump's team has engaged in.

"It shall be unlawful for a foreign national directly or through any other person to make any contribution of money or other thing of value, or to promise expressly or impliedly to make any such contribution, in connection with an election to any political office or in connection with any primary election, convention, or caucus held to select candidates for any political office; or for any person to solicit, accept, or receive any such contribution from a foreign national."

 

[dixon01767]

Trump's campaign solicited it. ."

You dont comprehend the meaning of solicited.

 

[Mina]

You dont comprehend the meaning of solicited.

I do, in fact, comprehend it. The reason you do not is because of your partisan politics. Since you start from the understanding that whatever the Trump campaign did cannot have been a crime, even a clear-cut solicitation of valuable information, such as occurred, must be redefined by you contrary to the common legal understanding of solicitation in order to clear the campaign of charges of wrongdoing.

 

[prometeus]

Adam Shift was spoofed by two comedians who said they were Russians and had naked pictures of Trump. He was more than happy to accept anything he thought they had. They have the tape of the phone call to Shift.

Is there a link to this?

 

[SLC]

No I will not 'spare anyone': Even as he was being pranked, Schiff stated his intention was to hand any info over to the FBI. Moreover it was about potential information handed over to a House committee as evidence, not to a political campaign as 'dirt' on opponents. there is no law stating the House Intel committee cannot handle foreign intel. There is a law against accepting foreign intelligence help in a campaign.

Trump stated he would take any information he was offered for campaign purposes. More or less as he intended to last time.

So why didn't lying Shift direct them straight to the FBI instead? Shift is a known liar no one but an idiot would trust anything that he said. :lol:

 

[SLC]

Is there a link to this?

 

[prometeus]

I meant something verified. Also which campaign is he connected with?

 

[prometeus]

So why didn't lying Shift direct them straight to the FBI instead?

Is this in any way connected to his election?

 

[j brown's body]

Hacking is against the law. Providing information is not.

Trafficking in stolen information is unethical.

I know, we're talking about Trump. But still...

 

[dixon01767]

No I will not 'spare anyone': Even as he was being pranked, Schiff stated his intention was to hand any info over to the FBI. .

Don Jr didnt really have any info to give the FBI. And Trump said "both", listen to the info and report to the FBI when asked. Seems the left has a big problem with such scenarios only when a Trump is involved. AND based upon recent FBI performance with dirt from foreigners on Presidential candidates, Id say one would have to be a fool to turn it over to the FBI, or looking for the government to destroy the candidate for you.
I keep hearing the talking heads on tv referring to the leaking of the DNC and Podesta emails that revealed nothing other than the truth, as "interference" with our democratic process, while not for even a second considering the massive Russian disinformation campaign that is the Russian Dossier, made up of 95% BS fabrications to be the same.
And Im sure its coming. Information from Ukrainins and Chinese to explain how Bidens sons are millionaires and cries from the left that say we cant let foreigners interfere with our democratic process by revealing the truth.

 

[dixon01767]

Trafficking in stolen information is unethical.
...

Nothing before or after the Trump Tower meeting indicated they were to receive "stolen" information. And what they did receive was accusations of Russian money going to the Clinton campaign, that had been reported in the media. Sooo not sure of the relevance of your point other than an indication that you have no relevant point.

 

[OscarLevant]

Senator Grassley commented on the shipments also.


[QUOTE]"It now appears that despite pledges to the contrary, U.S. uranium made its way overseas as a part of the Uranium One deal," Grassley said in the statement. "What’s more disturbing, those transactions were apparently made possible by various Obama Administration agencies while the Democrat-controlled Congress turned a blind eye.



“Americans deserve assurances that political influence was not a factor in all this. I’m increasingly convinced that a special counsel — someone with no prior involvement in any of these deals — should shine a light on this ordeal and get answers for the American people.”

Grassley is dreaming.

That story has been debunked many times. Uranium is abundant in the world. US uranium is of low quality, anyway.

Not one gram of US uranium found it's way to Russia. It requires permits, and none have been granted.


Fox's own Shepard Smith:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ry-infuriates-viewers/?utm_term=.db7a5eafb791


"no evidence provided by confidential informant"

Uranium One “Confidential Informant” Provides No Evidence to Support GOP Claims of “Quid Pro Quo” Between Clinton and Russia | House Committee on Oversight and Reform

This simple chart debunks the conspiracy theory that Hillary Clinton sold uranium to Russia - Vox

Russian Uranium One Deal And Hillary Clinton In The News Again

The Facts on Uranium One - FactCheck.org


https://www.motherjones.com/politic...-debunked-the-gops-phony-uranium-one-scandal/


https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a14477730/trump-uranium-one-republicans-russia/

https://www.politifact.com/facebook...x-tale-involving-hillary-clinton-uranium-rus/

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/hillary-clinton-uranium-russia-deal/

 

[iguanaman]

Don Jr didnt really have any info to give the FBI. And Trump said "both", listen to the info and report to the FBI when asked. Seems the left has a big problem with such scenarios only when a Trump is involved. AND based upon recent FBI performance with dirt from foreigners on Presidential candidates, Id say one would have to be a fool to turn it over to the FBI, or looking for the government to destroy the candidate for you.
I keep hearing the talking heads on tv referring to the leaking of the DNC and Podesta emails that revealed nothing other than the truth, as "interference" with our democratic process, while not for even a second considering the massive Russian disinformation campaign that is the Russian Dossier, made up of 95% BS fabrications to be the same.
And Im sure its coming. Information from Ukrainins and Chinese to explain how Bidens sons are millionaires and cries from the left that say we cant let foreigners interfere with our democratic process by revealing the truth.

LOL So it is your contention that Trump and his cohorts lied about the Russian contacts because the FBI was corrupt and Putin's henchmen were not? :lamo

 

[Ouroboros]

Just as electing Trump in the first place served their interests, by giving the US a weak and ineffective leader. They're not in the business of keeping him afloat any more than is useful: they've always been in it for themselves.

But no mistake, in Nov 2016, their interests were aligned with his.

I assume that you mean he's weak and ineffective with respect to Russia's interests, since Russia doesn't care about any of Trump's other interactions.

So kindly justify your contention that he's been weak and ineffective with respect to *actual* interactions with Russia, and not just political doubletalk of the sort every politician uses.

 

[Ouroboros]

Conspiracy theories are not based on evidence. Anyone sane who saw Trump kowtowing in Helsinki knows he is compromised. You saw it with your own eyes and still don't believe it?

About as much as Obama was by his "hot mike" comment.

 

[dixon01767]

*It was not the Russian government which sent fake info to Steele.
I have explained numerous times in this thread that it was Russian citizens who were NOT acting on behalf of the Russian government.*

How do you know this ?? All I've ever read is 'anonymous Russian sources' ??

He doesnt. Its what he sooo desperately wants to believe. So far the sources we know of are Presidential Advisor to Putin Vladislov Surkov and Vyasheslov Trubnikov, a former head of Russian External Intelligence Service, SVR. And an un named "senior Russian Foreign Ministry figure". according to Steele.

 

[dixon01767]

LOL So it is your contention that Trump and his cohorts lied about the Russian contacts because the FBI was corrupt and Putin's henchmen were not? :lamo

Nope.

 

[SLC]

Grassley is dreaming.

That story has been debunked many times. Uranium is abundant in the world. US uranium is of low quality, anyway.

Not one gram of US uranium found it's way to Russia. It requires permits, and none have been granted.


Fox's own Shepard Smith:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ry-infuriates-viewers/?utm_term=.db7a5eafb791


"no evidence provided by confidential informant"

Uranium One “Confidential Informant” Provides No Evidence to Support GOP Claims of “Quid Pro Quo” Between Clinton and Russia | House Committee on Oversight and Reform

This simple chart debunks the conspiracy theory that Hillary Clinton sold uranium to Russia - Vox

Russian Uranium One Deal And Hillary Clinton In The News Again

The Facts on Uranium One - FactCheck.org


https://www.motherjones.com/politic...-debunked-the-gops-phony-uranium-one-scandal/


https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a14477730/trump-uranium-one-republicans-russia/

https://www.politifact.com/facebook...x-tale-involving-hillary-clinton-uranium-rus/

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/hillary-clinton-uranium-russia-deal/

There IS evidence that yellow cake was shipped to Canada then shipped to Europe and Asia from a here we don’t know where it ended up.
The problem is we were promised it would never be shipped out of the United States and clearly that was a lie. We even know what trucking company shipped it to Canada and the shipping dates.

 

[pamak]

But if the misinformation cannot be verified, it still serves the purpose of making the DNC avid to track down collusion.

That's purely to the end of sowing discord, since in the long run it does not really help Trump, only Russian interests.

But it makes sense to have the Russian government spread misinformation and sow discord by attacking Trump's credibility AFTER Trump won the presidency and not before. I have not heard any justification of why it was so important for the Russians to have this type of operation a few months before the election date when Steele was looking for information instead of launching it a little bit later

 

[iguanaman]

Nope.

That is what you said, so you lied?

 

[iguanaman]

But it makes sense to have the Russian government spread misinformation and sow discord by attacking Trump's credibility AFTER Trump won the presidency and not before. I have not heard any justification of why it was so important for the Russians to have this type of operation a few months before the election date when Steele was looking for information instead of launching it a little bit later

There is no indication that Steele;s info came from the Russian Govt. but there is evidence of a purge that was instituted by Putin after the dossier was revealed. Not only that, much of it has been verified as true. The idea that any of the dossier was "planted" is fake news.

 

[Hamish Howl]

So much for no collusion, eh? Now he's publicly asking for it.