[W:257] Christian Viewpoint On Homosexuality

[DebateChallenge]

Perhaps not you, but several of your right-wing religious buddies have made that claim.

Well that's them not me. I don't agree with everything the right wing says or claims.

 

[Rich2018]

Some of the people on this forum had made the straw man argument that I said being gay was a choice. I never implied it was a choice.

So, if it's not a choice...are you saying that homosexuality can not be wrong ?

 

[DebateChallenge]

So, if it's not a choice...are you saying that homosexuality can not be wrong ?

The Bible says its wrong. I am not going to say whether or not its wrong since I am not an authority on that. Believing and following the Bible is a choice. As for whether or not homosexuality is a choice I am not an authority on that either so I am not going to take a position on whether its a choice or not.

 

[CLAX1911]

The Bible says its wrong. I am not going to say whether or not its wrong since I am not an authority on that. Believing and following the Bible is a choice. As for whether or not homosexuality is a choice I am not an authority on that either so I am not going to take a position on whether its a choice or not.

But you believe the Bible says it's wrong, thus if it is not a choice the Bible can't be right, if it isn't a choice we have better morals than the Bible at least in that subject.

So you are saying you aren't an expert, you don't have to be to see inconsistencies.

 

[DebateChallenge]

But you believe the Bible says it's wrong, thus if it is not a choice the Bible can't be right, if it isn't a choice we have better morals than the Bible at least in that subject.

Some people say you're just born gay, straight, ect. in which case its not a choice, some people are just born attracted to the same sex. And others will say that homosexuality is a learned behavior, nobody is born gay but they might learn to be gay later on in which case it is a choice.
I am not going to take a side on either of those two positions but I will say this much. The Bible says its wrong, the Bible says not to be a homosexual so as a believer of the Bible this is what I think. If the first case is right, if people are just born gay than I believe a person who is born gay who wants to follow the Bible should work on not being attracted to the same sex. The could train themselves to not like the same sex and this doesn't necessarily mean trying to train themselves to find the opposite sex attractive, they could be abstinent. If the second case is right than it obviously is a choice and anybody who makes that choice is not following the Bible.

 

[CLAX1911]

Some people say you're just born gay, straight, ect. in which case its not a choice,

And that's the only case? There is no such thing as being genetically predisposed to it?

some people are just born attracted to the same sex. And others will say that homosexuality is a learned behavior, nobody is born gay but they might learn to be gay later on in which case it is a choice.

So it's a learned behavior like addiction? Sexual behavior isn't reflective of a biological urge to procreate? This is profoundly stupid and disproven.

I am not going to take a side on either of those two positions but I will say this much. The Bible says its wrong, the Bible says not to be a homosexual so as a believer of the Bible this is what I think.

So are you are a fundamentalist?

If the first case is right, if people are just born gay than I believe a person who is born gay who wants to follow the Bible should work on not being attracted to the same sex.

That's like saying a black person should try not to be Black.

The could train themselves to not like the same sex and this doesn't necessarily mean trying to train themselves to find the opposite sex attractive, they could be abstinent. If the second case is right than it obviously is a choice and anybody who makes that choice is not following the Bible.

We already went over the second, that's the idea that sexuality is like a drug habit which flies in the face of basic biology.

 

[DebateChallenge]

And that's the only case? There is no such thing as being genetically predisposed to it?

Being born gay, straight, ect. is the same thing as being genetically predisposed to it.

So it's a learned behavior like addiction? Sexual behavior isn't reflective of a biological urge to procreate? This is profoundly stupid and disproven.

Some people say it is. If you disagree you can argue with them.

So are you are a fundamentalist?

Yes

That's like saying a black person should try not to be Black.

Your skin color you cannot change. Whether or not sexual orientation can be changed is a different matter but if you don't think thats an option theres always the option of being abstinent.

We already went over the second, that's the idea that sexuality is like a drug habit which flies in the face of basic biology.

So you obviously don't think its a choice. I am going to stay neutral about that.

 

[CLAX1911]

Being born gay, straight, ect. is the same thing as being genetically predisposed to it.

No it isn't. You can be born with a predisposition for alcoholism that doesn't mean you were born an alcoholic.

Some people say it is. If you disagree you can argue with them.

I disagree with you misrepresenting it as equal to other explanations, why not demonic possession or being telepathically brainwashed by crabs form Jupiter? Those two are equal to the claim that it's an addiction and not simply biological drive.

Yes

So You reject the theory of evolution, and believe the Genesis story is factually accurate?

Your skin color you cannot change.

Well it's equal to any other genetic aspect.

Whether or not sexual orientation can be changed is a different matter but if you don't think thats an option theres always the option of being abstinent.

Why wouldn't that be equal for heterosexual couples outside of sex for procreation? Or people who are sterile? Isn't it all just lust and therefore sinful if it isn't done for procreation?

Why single out homosexual and say they should do something you yourself are unwilling to do it to even ask anybody else?

So you obviously don't think its a choice. I am going to stay neutral about that.

Well all you would have to do is understand that sexual behavior is a biological drive innate in any animal that reproduces sexually to understand it isn't a choice. That has been proven. So the idea that sexual attraction is just an addiction is denial of basic biology.

It seems quite rational to think sexual attraction is a biological function and not equivalent to being hooked on cigarettes.

 

[Rich2018]

The Bible says its wrong....

Yes it does.
Indeed the Bible teaches us that men engaging in homosexual behavior should be put to death.

...I am not going to say whether or not its wrong since I am not an authority on that....

Just out of interest, just who would be an authority ?

Are you saying that ***IF*** homosexuality is NOT a choice it cannot be wrong ?

...whether or not homosexuality is a choice I am not an authority on that either so I am not going to take a position on whether its a choice or not.

So you never implied homosexuality was a choice...but now you're saying you're not sure if it is or is not.

Since you profess to know absolutely nothing about homosexuality, why start a thread on something about which you do not know what you're talking about ?

 

[DebateChallenge]

No it isn't. You can be born with a predisposition for alcoholism that doesn't mean you were born an alcoholic.

And a person can choose never to drink alcohol whether they're born with that predisposition or not. Some will argue that a person can be born attracted to their same sex. Even if that's the case they can choose to not act on that attraction.

I disagree with you misrepresenting it as equal to other explanations, why not demonic possession or being telepathically brainwashed by crabs form Jupiter? Those two are equal to the claim that it's an addiction and not simply biological drive.

Now you're off on left field talking about ridiculous stuff such as crabs from Jupiter. If you want to have a serious discussion you should talk about real stuff and stuff that has to do with the discussion.

So You reject the theory of evolution, and believe the Genesis story is factually accurate?

Yes, since that's what the Bible says and as I've pointed out before I believe the Bible.

Well it's equal to any other genetic aspect.

Genetic abstracts might not change but that doesn't have much, if anything, to do with the choices a person makes in life.

Why wouldn't that be equal for heterosexual couples outside of sex for procreation? Or people who are sterile? Isn't it all just lust and therefore sinful if it isn't done for procreation?

Not necessarily. According to the Bible sex is supposed to be an expression and act of love and intimacy between members of the opposite sex. Having children is just one of its purposes.

Why single out homosexual and say they should do something you yourself are unwilling to do it to even ask anybody else?

What do you mean?

Well all you would have to do is understand that sexual behavior is a biological drive innate in any animal that reproduces sexually to understand it isn't a choice. That has been proven. So the idea that sexual attraction is just an addiction is denial of basic biology.

According to the Bible people are in a different class from animals. If you disagree than you're disagreeing with the Bible, which is your prerogative. And I never did say sexual attraction is an addiction.

It seems quite rational to think sexual attraction is a biological function and not equivalent to being hooked on cigarettes.

I agree.

 

[DebateChallenge]

Yes it does.
Indeed the Bible teaches us that men engaging in homosexual behavior should be put to death.




Just out of interest, just who would be an authority ?

Are you saying that ***IF*** homosexuality is NOT a choice it cannot be wrong ?




So you never implied homosexuality was a choice...but now you're saying you're not sure if it is or is not.

Since you profess to know absolutely nothing about homosexuality, why start a thread on something about which you do not know what you're talking about ?

Rich2018 considering how much you contradict yourself and how your posts can be hypocritical debating with you I see as being generally pointless.

 

[CLAX1911]

And a person can choose never to drink alcohol whether they're born with that predisposition or not. Some will argue that a person can be born attracted to their same sex.

I guess you didn't get the point I was making. Things can be genetic and not be inborn. Like alcoholism.

Even if that's the case they can choose to not act on that attraction.

So can everyone.

Now you're off on left field talking about ridiculous stuff such as crabs from Jupiter. If you want to have a serious discussion you should talk about real stuff and stuff that has to do with the discussion.

Well you did get the point of that. Which was the notion that sexual attraction is like an addiction is as ridiculous as outer space telepathically crabs.

Yes, since that's what the Bible says and as I've pointed out before I believe the Bible.

Despite the fact that it has been proven wrong?

Genetic abstracts might not change but that doesn't have much, if anything, to do with the choices a person makes in life.

So you think people should feel ashamed of things they cannot help?

Not necessarily. According to the Bible sex is supposed to be an expression and act of love and intimacy between members of the opposite sex. Having children is just one of its purposes.

But if you can't, **** you, some holy book.

What do you mean?

Are you celibate?

According to the Bible people are in a different class from animals. If you disagree than you're disagreeing with the Bible, which is your prerogative.

The Bible has been proven wrong about certain things. To agree with it 100% is to take leave of reason.

And I never did say sexual attraction is an addiction.

I didn't say you said that, the argument that sexual attraction is a learned behavior and this a choice says that. It's essentially the argument that it's like being hooked on heroin.

I agree.

The argument suggesting that it is a learned behavior like the smoking habit is irrational.

 

[it's just me]

Some people say you're just born gay, straight, ect. in which case its not a choice, some people are just born attracted to the same sex. And others will say that homosexuality is a learned behavior, nobody is born gay but they might learn to be gay later on in which case it is a choice.
I am not going to take a side on either of those two positions but I will say this much. The Bible says its wrong, the Bible says not to be a homosexual so as a believer of the Bible this is what I think. If the first case is right, if people are just born gay than I believe a person who is born gay who wants to follow the Bible should work on not being attracted to the same sex. The could train themselves to not like the same sex and this doesn't necessarily mean trying to train themselves to find the opposite sex attractive, they could be abstinent. If the second case is right than it obviously is a choice and anybody who makes that choice is not following the Bible.

Dude...according to the Bible ALL illicit sex is sinful, no matter how many excuses you think you have.

 

[Rich2018]

....considering how much you contradict yourself and how your posts can be hypocritical debating with you I see as being generally pointless.

Boxed you into a corner there...and this was the best response you could come up with ?

So you profess no knowledge on the subject...but started a topic anyway on a subject about which you freely admit to knowing nothing about.

 

[zyzygy]

Yes it does.
Indeed the Bible teaches us that men engaging in homosexual behavior should be put to death.

When I ask Christians why they don't kill people who work on the sabbath or mouthy children they tell me that the old testament doesn't count anymore. Why does the gay bit still count?

 

[zyzygy]

1. Disobeying one’s parents. According to Deuteronomy, if a man disobeys his parents they should take him to the elders of the city, denounce him as a glutton and a drunkard, and then everyone should stone him to death.

2. Gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. When the Israelites were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on a Saturday. They brought him to Moses, who was unsure what to do with him. The word came down from on high that the man should be put to death, and the entire congregation stoned him outside the camp. This appears to have been an isolated incident, but just in case avoid gathering firewood or carrying pencils on the Sabbath.

3. Sexual relations with your in-laws. The penalty for sleeping with both a mother and her daughter is that all of them should be burned to death. Interestingly, sleeping with your daughter-in-law or stepmother incurs the more ambiguous punishment of you being put to death. Sex with your aunt or sister invokes social alienation, but not the death penalty.

4. Attending Hogwarts. According to Leviticus 20:27 “Any man or woman who is a medium or wizard shall be put to death.” Stoning is the specified method of execution. Sorry, Harry.

5. Kidnapping. Anyone who kidnaps someone should be put to death, regardless of whether or not the victim is still in their possession. Bad news for those involved in human trafficking and espionage.

6. Taking the Lord’s name in vain. Anyone—whether they are a local or an under-informed foreigner—can be stoned to death for taking the Lord’s name in vain. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit continues to be a serious sin in the New Testament: it is described in the gospel of Matthew as the only sin that will not be forgiven.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/all-the-things-the-bible-wants-to-execute-you-for

 

[rockabillylaker]

Re: Christian Viewpoint On Homosexuality

I'm a conservative Trump supporter. Im not religious and I have no issues with gay people whatsoever. The issues I have is when they try to bully the religious institutions and have the government get involved.

First in the 90s came the toleration - tolerate the fact that there are gay people and give them the same rights. Cool, I'm fine with that.

In the mid 2000s came celebration - Let's have National (insert LGBTQ holiday) Day to celebrate gay people. Wave flags, have parades, etc. Ummm okay. Sure.

Now it's PARTICIPATION. If you are not marching in our parades, waving the flags, even if you're straight, you're a bigot. Okay, this is a problem.

 

[Mary Dunsmore]

Re: Christian Viewpoint On Homosexuality

I am not religious, but have strong beliefs on the subject. That said, I am pretty fed up with society in the UK not respecting the religious beliefs of others when it comes to homosexuality. I am very much against society telling children that it is normal, because the norm is defied by the actions of the majority, and homosexuality is practised by approximately 5% of the population. Regardless of what liberals may want to tell us, AIDS was very much a gay problem, and in my opinion this was nature telling us to take things easy. That said, I have absolutely no problem with gay people, and what they choose to do in the privacy of their own homes is up to them. I also don't have a problem with civil partnerships, albeit I do find the term gay marriage to be an oxymoron. I think if we all sore homosexuality as a legal perversion, rather than a lifestyle choice, it would help us all get things into perspective.

 

[DebateChallenge]

I guess you didn't get the point I was making. Things can be genetic and not be inborn. Like alcoholism.

Because your point doesn't make sense. Maybe if you spoke my language I would have a better time understanding what you're saying.

Despite the fact that it has been proven wrong?

Where has the Bible been proven wrong? Show me a source?

So you think people should feel ashamed of things they cannot help?

No.

 

[CLAX1911]

Because your point doesn't make sense.

Complex things often don't make sense. Generic predisposition toward things is a complex theory.

Maybe if you spoke my language I would have a better time understanding what you're saying.

Communicating can be difficult but it isn't a one way street. I'm willing to speak in a way you are capable of understanding, but you have to be willing to explain that you don't understand something.

Where has the Bible been proven wrong? Show me a source?

Creation. We know for a fact that humans weren't the first life form. We also know for a fact that the Earth predated humans buy more than just a day. We know this through fossil records through carbon dating and various other Sciences that explain prehistory.

No.

doesn't Jesus say in the Gospels that if you think about sending you have committed the sin? So if you think about being with the person of the same sex it's the same as doing it according to Jesus.

 

[CLAX1911]

When I ask Christians why they don't kill people who work on the sabbath or mouthy children they tell me that the old testament doesn't count anymore. Why does the gay bit still count?

People pick and choose what they want to obey. It's a good thing and it's how the Renaissance occurred.

This thing with homosexuality is rather new. First the concept of a person that is homosexual only came into existence in the mid 19th century. In the past people that had sex with people of the same sex were just considered heterosexuals that "burned with desire." This clearly wasn't a functional concept because we have a better one now.

The reason I think people perpetuate this is because they can say they aren't as bad as those people.

 

[Quaestio]

Christians have a reputation for being homophobic. Well I am going to state my position on homosexuality. The Bible says not to be a homosexual and its very cut and dry on that. Particularly when its men with other men. There is one verse that I know of in the Bible that addresses lesbianism but where the Bible really hits it home is when it comes to men with other men, the Bible makes it very clear that men should not engage in homosexual acts with other men and that you should not live such a lifestyle. Now not everybody believes the Bible and that's their choice and as far as Im concerned if somebody's gay that's their business but as for me, I don't get with other men number one because the Bible says not to and number two, because I just don't like other men. What two consenting men do or what two consenting women do is none of my business and I want to keep it that way, but I don't like other men, I don't want to be with other men, and that's my choice.

You should see what the Bible says to do to treat house mould! Do you follow that too?

Leviticus 14:49

https://biblehub.com/niv/leviticus/14.htm

49 To purify the house he is to take two birds and some cedar wood, scarlet yarn and hyssop. 50 He shall kill one of the birds over fresh water in a clay pot. 51 Then he is to take the cedar wood, the hyssop, the scarlet yarn and the live bird, dip them into the blood of the dead bird and the fresh water, and sprinkle the house seven times. 52 He shall purify the house with the bird’s blood, the fresh water, the live bird, the cedar wood, the hyssop and the scarlet yarn. 53 Then he is to release the live bird in the open fields outside the town. In this way he will make atonement for the house, and it will be clean.”

 

[Quaestio]

Christians have a reputation for being homophobic. Well I am going to state my position on homosexuality. The Bible says not to be a homosexual and its very cut and dry on that. Particularly when its men with other men. There is one verse that I know of in the Bible that addresses lesbianism but where the Bible really hits it home is when it comes to men with other men, the Bible makes it very clear that men should not engage in homosexual acts with other men and that you should not live such a lifestyle. Now not everybody believes the Bible and that's their choice and as far as Im concerned if somebody's gay that's their business but as for me, I don't get with other men number one because the Bible says not to and number two, because I just don't like other men. What two consenting men do or what two consenting women do is none of my business and I want to keep it that way, but I don't like other men, I don't want to be with other men, and that's my choice.

There is nothing in the Bible about lesbians. Romans 1:26 was about pagan worshiping practices.

Nothing to do with lesbians. The women were having anal sex with men. That's how the early church fathers like St Augustine saw it.

Augustine (354–430 C.E.):

"But if one has relations even with one’s wife in a part of the body which was not made for begetting children, such relations are against nature and indecent. In fact, the same apostle earlier said the same thing about the women, For their women exchanged natural relations for those which are against nature (Rom 1:26).

Augustine, Marriage and Desire 20.35 (trans. Roland Teske; ed. John E Rotelle; Answer to the Pelagians, II; New York: New City Press, 1990), 75-76.

 

[Quaestio]

Re: Christian Viewpoint On Homosexuality

The "rule" of the Bible is to "hate the sin, not the sinner" to Christians who have NOT mixed their belief with their personal view of secular morality.

No, that's a quote by Mahatma Gandhi. It's not in the Bible at all.

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/40745-hate-the-sin-love-the-sinner

 

[Quaestio]

Re: Christian Viewpoint On Homosexuality

Gay and lesbian people don't seem to be mentioned in the Bible at all. Committed, loving same-gender relationships are not mentioned in the Bible.

The only references to any possible same-gender sex acts (which does not necessarily mean a person is homosexual) are:

-Threat of rape of male strangers (Gen 19 and Judges 19) - This is not homosexuality or about gay men or about committed loving relationships. Most male rape is committed by heterosexual males to dominate and humiliate other men. These men would not generally be gay men. Rape also has nothing to do with loving committed relationships in any case.

-Temple prostitution and using ritual sex acts to worship pagan Canaanite (Lev 18:22 and 20:13) or Roman/Greek gods (Romans 1:26-27). In Paul's letter to the Romans, he described ritual sex acts used to worship pagan gods in the Corinthian temples. You only need to read the preceding verses and understand the cultural/religious practices of the time to see how obvious this is. Men and women had ritual idolatrous vaginal sex with each other in the temples then they 'exchanged' that for men having anal sex with the women and with other men. Sounds like they were heterosexual by nature, not homosexual. This is clearly not about gay men and lesbians, or about any sort of loving committed relationship. It's idolatrous sex acts used in the pagan temples - some of which are anal sex.

1 Cor 6-9 and 1 Tim 1:10- could be male temple prostitution, using and selling male sex slaves or possibly pederasty or maybe just anal sex acts. Whatever it is, it's about abusive, exploitative or idolatrous sex acts, not loving, committed relationships. The word 'arsenokoites' is unclear but has been incorrectly translated as 'homosexuals' since 1947 in some English versions. Again, this has nothing to do with committed loving relationships of gay and lesbian people.


I'm sure some people will think this is 'twisting' scripture. In fact, it's they who are twisting scripture by talking a handful of verses out of their original cultural contexts and using them as a broad brush to condemn all gay and lesbian people and their relationships in the 21st century.

It's like taking verses about opposite-gender prostitution and rape and using those as a basis to condemn all heterosexuals and all heterosexual relationships in general. It doesn't make sense.