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The Transgender Fad

I'm not sure if I've seen that article before but I have seen the argument. I am not convinced that this is transgenderism. As I read it, it strikes me more along the lines of Victor/Victoria or Tootsie or Mrs. Doubtfire. Using the characteristics of the opposite sex to advantage is not the same as having a gender that is opposite your sex. And without the abstract communication ability humans have, I'm not sure animals can ever tell us clearly whether they are transgender, homosexual, using traits to advantage, or exerting dominance (mounting, etc).

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I'm not sure if I've seen that article before but I have seen the argument. I am not convinced that this is transgenderism. As I read it, it strikes me more along the lines of Victor/Victoria or Tootsie or Mrs. Doubtfire. Using the characteristics of the opposite sex to advantage is not the same as having a gender that is opposite your sex. And without the abstract communication ability humans have, I'm not sure animals can ever tell us clearly whether they are transgender, homosexual, using traits to advantage, or exerting dominance (mounting, etc).

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This is an interesting case:



And wouldn't the same argument apply to transgender humans? I.e. evolutionary advantage.
 
This is an interesting case:



And wouldn't the same argument apply to transgender humans? I.e. evolutionary advantage.
I have to wonder if that is not a case of chimerism, which is one of the possible causes of transgenderism. But we are still back to the point that we can not know what the lioness is thinking/feeling. Does she have a self image of being male, or is she effectively a "butch female", who happened to grow a mane? We do have human females who naturally grow facial hair, but don't consider themselves male/men. We have both human males and females who display all the trapping of the opposite sex (Drag Queens and again butch females as examples) but still have a self image of their birth sex.

My point is that we can't know for sure, because animals lack the complex language needed to express the details to determine one possibility over the other.

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I have to wonder if that is not a case of chimerism, which is one of the possible causes of transgenderism. But we are still back to the point that we can not know what the lioness is thinking/feeling. Does she have a self image of being male, or is she effectively a "butch female", who happened to grow a mane? We do have human females who naturally grow facial hair, but don't consider themselves male/men. We have both human males and females who display all the trapping of the opposite sex (Drag Queens and again butch females as examples) but still have a self image of their birth sex.

My point is that we can't know for sure, because animals lack the complex language needed to express the details to determine one possibility over the other.

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Maybe but they DO know how to behave like the opposite sexes. But yeah we might never know what they are thinking.
 
Ok, here you have repeated the whole progressive narrative about transgenderism. Without providing a single bit of evidence.
Oh, the irony! You have no evidence on your side at all, including -- in your own words -- having never met any transgender individuals. Not only that, but you blast anyone to relies on experts, meaning you have a ready-made excuse to blow off any evidence that does not suit your preferences before you even see it.

Anyway. The evidence is in medical journals, and it is not my obligation to present to you a bunch of studies that you're going to blow off anyway.


And I am not saying transgenderism does not occur. I am saying we should be skeptical about the medical interventions. We do not know the long term risks of taking those hormones.
Doctors have used hormone therapies for decades. The risks are fairly well known.

I might add, we don't know the "long term risks" of any drugs or therapies that have been on the market for less than, say, 10-20 years.


We do know that hormone replacement for women has proven harmful.
Incorrect.

What we know is that hormone replacement therapy used to ease menopause symptoms has a complicated balance of risks and benefits. Those risks and benefits vary greatly depending upon the severity of menopausal symptoms, the medications prescribed, the combinations of medications used, the age at which the individual experiences menopause, whether they still have their ovaries, and more. I.e. HRT is still a valid choice for many women who experience menopause -- and, I might add, it is only a result of the expertise of doctors and medical researchers that we know all this about HRT.

There are also very high risks of not using medication to treat gender dysphoria, including anxiety, depression and social rejection. There are studies on that as well, because doctors need to understand the myriad impacts of both prescribing, and not prescribing, those medications.

You should keep in mind that a key factor in these decisions is the opinion of the patient. If the teen in question feels significantly worse after starting hormone therapy, he certainly has the option to discontinue it. Doctors are not out to push an agenda, their job is to help their patients.


I don't doubt that being non-traditional in terms of gender roles is more difficult. Most of us don't fit perfectly into one or the other, but we learn to act as if. Not saying transgenders should act as if. But there is a whole lot of room for differences now.
It's not that much better. The entire US did not decide overnight to open its arms to transgender children, and accept them for who they are. Even in progressive bastions, kids don't often get the memo, and will use any difference to pillory and bully other children. As a result, the psychological damage is still happening.


You are making it sound much more horrible than it is. I don't know any transgenders. I don't know this kid, actually only know the father, and not for very long. But I hear about it every day.
So... You are not a doctor, you've done no research, you don't know the boy, you've never met the boy, and you feel justified not only in making a medical diagnosis of the individual, you feel justified in saying that the entire field is making huge mistakes? WTF.

If you really want to be compassionate, then leave your agenda at the door, and just listen to what the father is saying. Rather than help yourself by using this situation to justify your preferred beliefs, maybe you should just help them by being a nice person.
 
Given the radical religious sects and individuals out there, you are very wrong. When Christians are assaulting gays because they are sinning against God, they give religion a bad name. Radical Muslims are not helping either.

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Radicals and extremists, of any kind, are dangerous. Extreme Marxists are just as dangerous as extreme Christians or Muslims.

Religion, in general, is not the problem.
 
It's statements like this where it greatly shows that people don't realize that history is just a series of events of people being non traditional. Nursing use to be an all male profession, as did teaching.

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Yes, society evolves. And we are evolving away from strict gender roles. Although, it is true, most women still prefer traditional female roles and most men prefer traditional male roles. But we are free to be non-traditional.
 
I respectfully disagree. It can be a phase, or it can be an issue that isn't actually transgenderism. That doesn't dismiss transgenderism as a possibility. And that is why a proper evaluation is necessary.

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The trouble with "proper evaluations" is that medical professionals can be overly politically correct. Or they can be pressure by politically correct parents.

I think that could be what happened with my friend's child. Both parents are extremely horrified by homophobia and transphobia, so they may have over-reacted.
 
Oh, the irony! You have no evidence on your side at all, including -- in your own words -- having never met any transgender individuals. Not only that, but you blast anyone to relies on experts, meaning you have a ready-made excuse to blow off any evidence that does not suit your preferences before you even see it.

Anyway. The evidence is in medical journals, and it is not my obligation to present to you a bunch of studies that you're going to blow off anyway.



Doctors have used hormone therapies for decades. The risks are fairly well known.

I might add, we don't know the "long term risks" of any drugs or therapies that have been on the market for less than, say, 10-20 years.



Incorrect.

What we know is that hormone replacement therapy used to ease menopause symptoms has a complicated balance of risks and benefits. Those risks and benefits vary greatly depending upon the severity of menopausal symptoms, the medications prescribed, the combinations of medications used, the age at which the individual experiences menopause, whether they still have their ovaries, and more. I.e. HRT is still a valid choice for many women who experience menopause -- and, I might add, it is only a result of the expertise of doctors and medical researchers that we know all this about HRT.

There are also very high risks of not using medication to treat gender dysphoria, including anxiety, depression and social rejection. There are studies on that as well, because doctors need to understand the myriad impacts of both prescribing, and not prescribing, those medications.

You should keep in mind that a key factor in these decisions is the opinion of the patient. If the teen in question feels significantly worse after starting hormone therapy, he certainly has the option to discontinue it. Doctors are not out to push an agenda, their job is to help their patients.



It's not that much better. The entire US did not decide overnight to open its arms to transgender children, and accept them for who they are. Even in progressive bastions, kids don't often get the memo, and will use any difference to pillory and bully other children. As a result, the psychological damage is still happening.



So... You are not a doctor, you've done no research, you don't know the boy, you've never met the boy, and you feel justified not only in making a medical diagnosis of the individual, you feel justified in saying that the entire field is making huge mistakes? WTF.

If you really want to be compassionate, then leave your agenda at the door, and just listen to what the father is saying. Rather than help yourself by using this situation to justify your preferred beliefs, maybe you should just help them by being a nice person.

Ah, you know, I have not said a word of what I think to the father. NOT ONE WORD. I am saying it here anonymously. Well duh, how could you not figure that out.
 
Doctors have used hormone therapies for decades. The risks are fairly well known.

Hormone therapy for teens not already having a hormone deficiency is a very unknown area. This is new territory, and we do need to be careful. Already we are seeing issues arise for MtF transitioning.

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Yes, society evolves. And we are evolving away from strict gender roles. Although, it is true, most women still prefer traditional female roles and most men prefer traditional male roles. But we are free to be non-traditional.
Except they are not as traditional as people want to make them out to be. That's my point. "Traditional" is a highly subjective term, in terms of history.

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Hormone therapy for teens not already having a hormone deficiency is a very unknown area. This is new territory, and we do need to be careful. Already we are seeing issues arise for MtF transitioning.

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There is recklessness, and way too much confidence in modern medicine. So many things are unknown. But medical professionals feel pressure to know everything, so they often act more confident than they are. It is so dangerous.
 
Except they are not as traditional as people want to make them out to be. That's my point. "Traditional" is a highly subjective term, in terms of history.

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But we all know that nurse is traditionally female and doctor is traditionally male. It isn't all that subjective. Especially since there is data on professions and gender.

Some have been changing recently -- psychotherapists used to be more often male and now they are more often female. Same for pediatricians. But you can see how these jobs would appeal to women.

And that brings up the question of whether women are born with different personality traits than men. Or are these differences entirely learned. I think they are partly inborn. Millions of years of evolution decided that males would be more aggressive and females more nurturing. (Except when females aggressively protect their babies).

So how is that related to transgenderism? If a little girl feels she is really a boy, did she somehow inherit a male mind?

I think it is awfully hard to figure out, since almost every personality trait is a mixture of inheritance and learning. Medical doctors who do the evaluations don't have it figured out.
 
Oh, the irony! You have no evidence on your side at all, including -- in your own words -- having never met any transgender individuals. Not only that, but you blast anyone to relies on experts, meaning you have a ready-made excuse to blow off any evidence that does not suit your preferences before you even see it.

Anyway. The evidence is in medical journals, and it is not my obligation to present to you a bunch of studies that you're going to blow off anyway.

You didn't even present one. Maybe because there aren't any.
 
Doctors have used hormone therapies for decades. The risks are fairly well known.

I might add, we don't know the "long term risks" of any drugs or therapies that have been on the market for less than, say, 10-20 years.

Right, we don't know the long term risks. But we do know that messing with complex natural systems is likely to have unexpected consequences.
 
Yes, society evolves. And we are evolving away from strict gender roles. Although it is true, most women still prefer traditional female roles and most men prefer traditional male roles. But we are free to be non-traditional.

Trans people are less than 1% of the population, so even if you add in non-binary and gender fluid fluid it is still less than 3%. They have always existed but usually not very openly, so there is no new fad and it certainly is not a social revolution. You just know that they exist and are more open about who they are.

David Bowie was gender fluid in his Ziggy Stardust days. So are many artists. "Pat" from Saturday Night Live fame was a spoof of gender-fluid people in the 1990s.

Many trans people are quite conservative or traditional in their identified gender expression.
 
Right, we don't know the long term risks. But we do know that messing with complex natural systems is likely to have unexpected consequences.

The risks are well known and they are managed as part of the HRT process. Trans people should be and usually are made aware of the risk of hormone therapy before they start.

Transgendered people have been taking hormones to transition since the 1950s, so there is considerable body of knowledge.
 
The trouble with "proper evaluations" is that medical professionals can be overly politically correct. Or they can be pressured by politically correct parents.

I think that could be what happened with my friend's child. Both parents are extremely horrified by homophobia and transphobia, so they may have over-reacted.

No parent is going to endorse the doctor to diagnosis their child as transgendered as a reaction to homophobia or transphobia. That is insane and crminal and both the Dr and the parents need to be proscuted to the fullest extent of the law for that occurrence. That is a child and its not a pet or a Pride parade banner to show how "woke" they are.
The proper reaction to homo-or transphobia is education and teaching tolerance.
 
Trans people are less than 1% of the population, so even if you add in non-binary and gender fluid fluid it is still less than 3%. They have always existed but usually not very openly, so there is no new fad and it certainly is not a social revolution. You just know that they exist and are more open about who they are.

David Bowie was gender fluid in his Ziggy Stardust days. So are many artists. "Pat" from Saturday Night Live fame was a spoof of gender-fluid people in the 1990s.

Many trans people are quite conservative or traditional in their identified gender expression.

David Bowie didn't have to get medical interventions in order to be gender fluid. What I have been trying to say here is I don't understand why the medical interventions are being done, when people can dress and act in non-traditional ways. If you can have green hair and a pierced tongue, I guess you can dress non-traditionally for your gender.

The medical interventions, done on physically healthy teenagers, have unknown long term consequences. Is there research on what could happen decades later?
 
David Bowie didn't have to get medical interventions in order to be gender fluid. What I have been trying to say here is I don't understand why the medical interventions are being done, when people can dress and act in non-traditional ways. If you can have green hair and a pierced tongue, I guess you can dress non-traditionally for your gender.

The medical interventions, done on physically healthy teenagers, have unknown long term consequences. Is there research on what could happen decades later?



Trans people are not gender fluid and gender-fluid people rarely want to permanently transition or have surgery. They are happy in the middle where they are and tend to just like to stay there. Transgdered knows that they are not their same biological gender psychologically and want their body to align full time with their incongruent psychological gender identity.

There is some risk, as with any meduication but transgendered people are so deperate to feel comfortable in their own body that they are willing to accept that risk to be whole and able to fully express who they are
 
Trans people are not gender fluid and gender-fluid people rarely want to permanently transition or have surgery. They are happy in the middle where they are and tend to just like to stay there. Transgdered knows that they are not their same biological gender psychologically and want their body to align full time with their incongruent psychological gender identity.

There is some risk, as with any meduication but transgendered people are so deperate to feel comfortable in their own body that they are willing to accept that risk to be whole and able to fully express who they are

It still doesn't make sense. Nothing anyone posted in this thread explains how anyone knows their feeling reflects reality. As I tried to explain, there is no way to define being a woman, except the ability to have babies and being attracted to men (for straight women).

How can you know the female personality traits are completely inborn, rather than at least partly learned? How can you know a transgender kid isn't just in a fantasy world, which is so typical of kids?

I do not see any way that anyone can know that transgenderism reflects a biological reality. And even if it does I don't see how anyone can be sure medical interventions are needed. These interventions are so primitive, for one thing. You can't make a woman's shoulders wider or her hips narrower. You can't change bone structure.

One reason the kid I know about is so miserable, is he's afraid to go to school because someone might notice he doesn't exactly look male. I mean really really scared about this. And as a result is failing all school subjects. The parents are absolutely at a loss, and nothing they have tried helped at all. And no professionals have been able to help at all. I hope this finally turns out well, but now it's a disaster. And as I said I suspect the kid would have been better off just being a non-traditional female.
 
I think fad is accurate but then again mental disorders are going to be a fad soon enough I've already started seeing it.

I think so. More and more kids are diagnosed and drugged for something or other. It will become acceptable, even cool, to have a mental illness.
 
I think so. More and more kids are diagnosed and drugged for something or other. It will become acceptable, even cool, to have a mental illness.

It's the latest way to show yourself as special without having to be good at anything.

I actually heard Joe Rogan say that.
 
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