The Latest: California vaccine exemption bill advances

[joko104]

Hundreds of thousands of vaccines provided for Chinese children have been found to be faulty, inciting widespread fury and prompting the country's President, Xi Jinping, to describe the incident as "vile and shocking."

Outrage in China over faulty vaccines sold - CNN Video

I guess CNN is just lying again, right?

BTW, China is going to be the new source of vaccinations. But just because China killed millions of dogs in the USA with contaminated dog food doesn't mean we can't entirely trust injecting an entire generation of Americans with vaccinations that it is not even possible to test for safety given that it is only weeks from discovery to when it has to be distributed.

If you can't trust China with your child's life, who can you trust? Just because China killed your dog, that doesn't mean China would dare risk harming your child, right? You can't sue over vaccinations. If we know anything, it is quality control is all but non-existent in China.

 

[uptower]

No, the question is why are some many Democrats and atheists such submissive sheeple to the government? Why do they worship government as if omnipotent, omniscient and benevolent gods?

I would argue there's a certain amount of projection in there. worship is a word for religious conservatives. Those who've been encouraged all their lives to follow and obey may see it in everyone else's actions as well. Instead it's a matter of trust - public trust in ones elected or appointed representatives, who generally take on their roles to serve the greater good.

To that I would add many public health officials are also doctors or nurses who've moved to the administrative side, and they most certainly took their jobs in the first place to help others, not to lead and command them.

One can argue that those who follow informed consensus are 'sheeple' but it is far more likely that the real 'sheeple' are those who base their decisions on rumor and superstition. This is the unfortunate case of the anti-vaxxer.

And no it does not follow that because China - which has lax controls on just about every product on the market - has crappy vaccines that the USA also does. A reliable source is also needed to demonstrate the claim that the US will be sourcing those same vaccines from the same Chinese sources that provided the faulty ones.

 

[iguanaman]

Flu vaccinations ("influenza") are developed by monitoring pigs in China as pigs carry many human diseases including influenza - a constantly evolving disease. For the new strains of influenza they quick try to throw together a vaccination - generally calculating it will address 40% to 60% of new strains. Because the quantity needed is so massive, it is a race to make enough of this EXTREMELY profitable vaccination to be sold EVERY year.

The amount of time to do testing for side effects - short or long term? Absolutely none. Nor will any company make it unless the government assures they can sell it and the government assures legally they have no liability for anyone it may harm or kill.

Are flu shots safe? No one knows. There isn't even a way to know because within a year it all has to change again anyway.

You apparently have no clue what a vaccine is. It is not a drug. It is a killed or disabled form of the virus or bacteria that causes the disease to be protected. The changes in flu shots are only in the type of flu virus used. Vaccinating for diseases is a proven and very safe method of protection that has been used for over 75 years. The small percentage of side effects far outweigh the benefits.

Herd immunity occurs when a significant proportion of individuals within a population are protected against a disease through immunisation. This situation offers indirect protection to people who are not vaccinated, or who were but whose immune systems did not respond to the vaccine, by making it less likely they will come into contact with someone who is carrying the pathogen.

In the case of a highly infectious disease such as measles, more than 95 per cent of the population must be vaccinated to achieve sufficient herd immunity to prevent transmission if the disease recurs.

Immunisation—protecting our children from disease - Curious

 

[joko104]

I would argue there's a certain amount of projection in there. worship is a word for religious conservatives. Those who've been encouraged all their lives to follow and obey may see it in everyone else's actions as well. Instead it's a matter of trust - public trust in ones elected or appointed representatives, who generally take on their roles to serve the greater good.

To that I would add many public health officials are also doctors or nurses who've moved to the administrative side, and they most certainly took their jobs in the first place to help others, not to lead and command them.

One can argue that those who follow informed consensus are 'sheeple' but it is far more likely that the real 'sheeple' are those who base their decisions on rumor and superstition. This is the unfortunate case of the anti-vaxxer.

And no it does not follow that because China - which has lax controls on just about every product on the market - has crappy vaccines that the USA also does. A reliable source is also needed to demonstrate the claim that the US will be sourcing those same vaccines from the same Chinese sources that provided the faulty ones.

Not one example has been given of any doctor giving a false reason why a child should be exempt from vaccinations. Yet that is the claimed need for this radical legislation to take doctors out of the loop.

We get food and drugs already from China. Almost everything comes from China. Why do you think vaccinations would be any different? Even with legal protection against lawsuits, only a very short list of pharma companies will touch making vaccinations. People on this thread and in general think vaccinations are a simple, proven certain science - and they are not. Over and over there are instances of "oops" - and these are pushed so fast on people new that there is little to no study of safety PRIOR to release, only excuses and claims of "no proof of causation" afterwards.

Where the **** is starting to hit the fan in the USA on vaccinations is over vaccinations the military quick came up with claiming they offered some protection against anthrax and other diseases - for which many, many experts (real experts) claim the massive number of claims for injury from them may have merit. Of course, the military denies the possibility like it did for decades with Agent Orange because they have no choice.

There are many reasons beyond just shouting "ANTI-VAXXER!!!!" why discussion is not possible. One of those is that to lay people they are all just "vaccinations" - like they are all identical, all equally studied and all of equal proven history. Vaccinations are BIG money and when a new one comes along they are quickly thrown on the market by just adding it to all the others given at the same time.

Again, the one study that has NEVER been done - and is at the CORE of "anti-vaxxers" is not about any one vaccination. It is about giving babies and infants 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 vaccinations at the same time, meaning infecting the child's white blood cells with 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 diseases all at the same time. It is just asserted that if each one individually is safe, then all of them together must be too.

That makes as much sense as arguing in court "I wasn't drunk, I only drank 1 glass of each kind of liquor." If one won't make you drunk, the 6 times 1 won't either because they were all different liquors. Can a baby's immune system fight 5 diseases at the same time? It is known that diseases (such as measles) can "erase" a person's white-cell immunity "memory" leaving the person exposed. What does 5 difference vaccinations at the same time to do the "memory" of a little baby's white blood cells?

The answer? No one knows. It has never been studied nor does anyone in the industry want it studied because of the possibility it could be documented that there are harms or risks in multiple immunizations at the same time. There is NO basis to claim "safety" for a practice that has never been studied. It is NOT legitimate to just assume it is safe when the safety is unknown.

 

[joko104]

You apparently have no clue what a vaccine is. It is not a drug. It is a killed or disabled form of the virus or bacteria that causes the disease to be protected. The changes in flu shots are only in the type of flu virus used. Vaccinating for diseases is a proven and very safe method of protection that has been used for over 75 years. The small percentage of side effects far outweigh the benefits.



Immunisation—protecting our children from disease - Curious

I use "drug" as a generic term. I understand the different forms of vaccinations. Some are diseases. Others are not. All are drugs. To claim otherwise would be to correct anyone using the term "drug" and say "no, it's not a drug, it's a chemical" or "no, it's not a drug, it is an organic substance.

Your last sentence is just a marketing talking point. But maybe you can point to the protocol study proving giving half a dozen immunizations ("diseases") to a baby has no real negative side effects. You can't just assert it, but that is what was done for convenience sake.

What other "drugs" are like that - that it is assumed impossible they will have any adverse interaction between them? Why take just one opiod for pain? Why not take fentanyl AND morphine AND codeine AND oxycodone plus 3 aspirin and 3 tylenol and wash it down with half a dozen bourbons - since we can just ASSUME there is no collective or interaction negative effect even possible - exactly as is just ASSUMED about vaccinations - and to babies with undeveloped immunities to begin with.

Because of costs involved, rather than any discussion allowed in government, CDC and manufacturing circles - or political circles - just scream "ANTI-VAXXER!!!!" and refuse all discussions of any kind. Just pretend their safely mixed together and call that pretending "scientific proof."

 

[joko104]

I would argue there's a certain amount of projection in there. worship is a word for religious conservatives. Those who've been encouraged all their lives to follow and obey may see it in everyone else's actions as well. Instead it's a matter of trust - public trust in ones elected or appointed representatives, who generally take on their roles to serve the greater good.

To that I would add many public health officials are also doctors or nurses who've moved to the administrative side, and they most certainly took their jobs in the first place to help others, not to lead and command them.

One can argue that those who follow informed consensus are 'sheeple' but it is far more likely that the real 'sheeple' are those who base their decisions on rumor and superstition. This is the unfortunate case of the anti-vaxxer.

And no it does not follow that because China - which has lax controls on just about every product on the market - has crappy vaccines that the USA also does. A reliable source is also needed to demonstrate the claim that the US will be sourcing those same vaccines from the same Chinese sources that provided the faulty ones.

Most vaccinations used in the USA are not made in the USA. However, there is no direct importation of vaccinations from China to the USA. Whether the other countries we buy vaccinations from use Chinese ingredients? I don't know and that may be an unknown. Often, to claim a product was made it your country only requires the final process, bottling, labeling, packaging etc was done in that country - but ingredients or parts made elsewhere.

 

[upsideguy]

Nearly all hospitals have "death committees" and have for a long time. The most common practice is to vote on whether a costly treatment has at least a 50% chance of significantly extending a person's life. If they decide no then the treatment is usually denied if a charity case or one requiring insurance or government approval. If the panel votes there is only a 40% chance then Medicare or insurance won't pay and they won't do the procedure.

Please provide credible cite for this nonsense so that we can all stop laughing and take your point seriously. At face value, this appears to be claim that would be attributable to Alex Jones.

 

[iguanaman]

I use "drug" as a generic term. I understand the different forms of vaccinations. Some are diseases. Others are not. All are drugs. To claim otherwise would be to correct anyone using the term "drug" and say "no, it's not a drug, it's a chemical" or "no, it's not a drug, it is an organic substance.

Your last sentence is just a marketing talking point. But maybe you can point to the protocol study proving giving half a dozen immunizations ("diseases") to a baby has no real negative side effects. You can't just assert it, but that is what was done for convenience sake.

What other "drugs" are like that - that it is assumed impossible they will have any adverse interaction between them? Why take just one opiod for pain? Why not take fentanyl AND morphine AND codeine AND oxycodone plus 3 aspirin and 3 tylenol and wash it down with half a dozen bourbons - since we can just ASSUME there is no collective or interaction negative effect even possible - exactly as is just ASSUMED about vaccinations - and to babies with undeveloped immunities to begin with.

Because of costs involved, rather than any discussion allowed in government, CDC and manufacturing circles - or political circles - just scream "ANTI-VAXXER!!!!" and refuse all discussions of any kind. Just pretend their safely mixed together and call that pretending "scientific proof."

Drugs and vaccines are totally different. A drug treats illness already present and vaccines are purely preventative. At least get you terminology correct.

 

[Saladin4]

Please provide credible cite for this nonsense so that we can all stop laughing and take your point seriously. At face value, this appears to be claim that would be attributable to Alex Jones.

Just crazy conspiracy non sense...Nothing more

 

[Northern Light]

LOL That is ridiculous and I question that research. Vaccines work by training your immune system.

Question away

They're also finding that infecting some adults who have no prior immunity with measles cures them of certain types of tumours.

Vaccines don't accomplish this.

It makes me wonder how cancer rates would be affected if we allowed certain childhood diseases to go unvaccinated. Maybe there would be less cancers in adults. It's an interesting hypothesis.

According to updated germ theory, we need a lot of these infections to train the immune system. We still know so little.

 

[Carjosse]

Question away

They're also finding that infecting some adults who have no prior immunity with measles cures them of certain types of tumours.

Vaccines don't accomplish this.

It makes me wonder how cancer rates would be affected if we allowed certain childhood diseases to go unvaccinated. Maybe there would be less cancers in adults. It's an interesting hypothesis.

According to updated germ theory, we need a lot of these infections to train the immune system. We still know so little.

What do you think a vaccine is?

 

[Unitedwestand13]

Question away

They're also finding that infecting some adults who have no prior immunity with measles cures them of certain types of tumours.

Vaccines don't accomplish this.

It makes me wonder how cancer rates would be affected if we allowed certain childhood diseases to go unvaccinated. Maybe there would be less cancers in adults. It's an interesting hypothesis.

According to updated germ theory, we need a lot of these infections to train the immune system. We still know so little.

And what if we unleash a nightmarish pandemic like the 1918 influenza outbreak?

What made That outbreak so terrifiying is that it killed people who were young and healthy. The victims immune system overreacted to the influenza virus and create a Cytokine storm that drowns the victim.

 

[joko104]

When it comes to these diseases all of us are alike and we all risk death if we don't vaccinate. Personal freedom ends when you endanger others in your society by not vaccinating. Unless you live and stay on your own island for life you must comply with laws that protect others and your children.

So you admit vaccinations don't work and therefore are not protected against anyone who isn't? That makes no sense whatsoever.

WHICH vaccination are you talking about?

 

[Northern Light]

What do you think a vaccine is?

Deactivated virus. A measles infection has been shown to clear cancer, not adjuvated virus.

And what if we unleash a nightmarish pandemic like the 1918 influenza outbreak?

What made That outbreak so terrifiying is that it killed people who were young and healthy. The victims immune system overreacted to the influenza virus and create a Cytokine storm that drowns the victim.

Huh? Who is talking about the flu here?

Besides, we never stopped that. It ran its course. Flu vaccines have been proven ineffective. They confer immunity only 40% of the time and they lower immune effectiveness for up to 30 days following vaccination.

You should do some study on the Spanish flu. It actually originated in the USA, but because we were in WWI the U.S. government put a media blackout on it. They didn't want our enemies knowing our soldiers were being weakened by it. As a result, Americans continued to have public gatherings, causing massive infection.

Spain wasn't in WWI so when the flu reached its shores, its media reported on it.

President Wilson made huge policy mistakes during that time. The virus could've been contained.

 

[joko104]

Drugs and vaccines are totally different. A drug treats illness already present and vaccines are purely preventative. At least get your terminology correct.

Your statement is seriously over simplified.

 

[joko104]

Please provide credible cite for this nonsense so that we can all stop laughing and take your point seriously. At face value, this appears to be claim that would be attributable to Alex Jones.

I don't know what you are seeing on Alex Jones. You're a big fan of his?

Medical care is often about probabilities. Hospitals have been making these calculations for decades if not longer.

 

[joko104]

With one minor exception, everyone ranting "anti-vaxxer!" has absolutely refused to actually discuss or debate the topic of this thread. Rather they prefer simplistic loyalty ranting.

 

[Carjosse]

Deactivated virus. A measles infection has been shown to clear cancer, not adjuvated virus.

So how exactly are vaccines not "training the immune system"? Care to provide some reputable studies to support your claim other than one random study. Even if it were true is that worth measles running rampant in society, causing serious harm and death as it goes?

 

[Carjosse]

With one minor exception, everyone ranting "anti-vaxxer!" has absolutely refused to actually discuss or debate the topic of this thread. Rather they prefer simplistic loyalty ranting.

Okay then why do you support bribing doctors and opposing measures to combat that corruption?

 

[HenryChinaski]

With one minor exception, everyone ranting "anti-vaxxer!" has absolutely refused to actually discuss or debate the topic of this thread. Rather they prefer simplistic loyalty ranting.

Millions die in undeveloped countries from treatable diseases due to lack of access to vaccinations. And then we have ignorant and spoiled Americans trying to turn us into those suffering nations and sending us back to a time in our own history when diseases like measles, smallpox and polio killed and maimed scores of people. Your nonsense is a threat to society.

 

[Northern Light]

So how exactly are vaccines not "training the immune system"? Care to provide some reputable studies to support your claim other than one random study. Even if it were true is that worth measles running rampant in society, causing serious harm and death as it goes?

I'm not really interested in coming up with a litany of sources in this hornet's nest. I'm a MSc in Biology and I read a lot of things, so you'll just have to trust me.

They modified the measles virus as a targeted immunovirotherapy. That is to say, changing a virus to preferentially target cancer cells. However, they specifically chose the measles virus for the research design because it shows high selectively for cancer cells in the first place.

You're asking a good question, which is: what is the difference between a vaccine and getting the disease? The full blown disease causes complete immune activation which has many secondary effects too numerous to list here. Children who get full blown measles may have stronger immune systems for life than children who are prevented from having the disease.

The death rate for measles world wide has not changed in over 30 years. It kills more or less the same number of people annually, and the people it kills tend to be in under resourced areas, regardless of vaccination status. Aside from serious diseases like small pox and polio, the fatality rates for childhood diseases were already dropping as health care infrastructure improved in the 20th century.

The media is stoking fear because the UN is pushing a vaccine mandate whose deadline is approaching. Why is nobody asking why, suddenly, every single country has media talking about measles and vaccines? The coverage is almost 24/7. This is about patient sovereignty vs. government authority. You're too busy fighting anti-vaxxers to examine the power grab that's underway.

Normally people are up in arms whenever the UN tells sovereign nations what to do, but this time people are falling for it hook, line and sinker.

 

[Saladin4]

Anti-Vaxxers=Brain Dead Morons

 

[uptower]

Please provide credible cite for this nonsense so that we can all stop laughing and take your point seriously. At face value, this appears to be claim that would be attributable to Alex Jones.

That's most likely where he found it...

 

[Phys251]

Different companies make different drugs.

Second, which would you prefer as a business:
1. The government requiring EVERYONE buy your product - AND you are legally protected from any liabilities - hundreds of millions of customers or

2. To have a thousand customers a year - and all of them can sue your company?

You still seem to have the mistaken view that I oppose vaccinations. I don't. I oppose stupidity and mindlessly being totally controlled - and even moreso about my children. There is no major contagious disease my children were not vaccinated against as a positive, conscious decision.

Over 50% of the population, including on our own doctor's advice, agree with our decision not to get flu vaccinations. I bet the California Democrats with this law will force every child to have flu vaccinations - which literally can not POSSIBLY be tested as it is only weeks at the most from when they are first created each year to injected into tens of millions of people.

Again with the goalpost shift.

Let me give you another chance to be taken seriously. Here is a question that will be very easy to answer if you know anything about epidemiology:

Define "R_0", as in, R with a subscript 0. Just a brief definition will do.

 

[Carjosse]

I'm not really interested in coming up with a litany of sources in this hornet's nest. I'm a MSc in Biology and I read a lot of things, so you'll just have to trust me.

They modified the measles virus as a targeted immunovirotherapy. That is to say, changing a virus to preferentially target cancer cells. However, they specifically chose the measles virus for the research design because it shows high selectively for cancer cells in the first place.

You're asking a good question, which is: what is the difference between a vaccine and getting the disease? The full blown disease causes complete immune activation which has many secondary effects too numerous to list here. Children who get full blown measles may have stronger immune systems for life than children who are prevented from having the disease.

The death rate for measles world wide has not changed in over 30 years. It kills more or less the same number of people annually, and the people it kills tend to be in under resourced areas, regardless of vaccination status. Aside from serious diseases like small pox and polio, the fatality rates for childhood diseases were already dropping as health care infrastructure improved in the 20th century.

The media is stoking fear because the UN is pushing a vaccine mandate whose deadline is approaching. Why is nobody asking why, suddenly, every single country has media talking about measles and vaccines? The coverage is almost 24/7. This is about patient sovereignty vs. government authority. You're too busy fighting anti-vaxxers to examine the power grab that's underway.

Normally people are up in arms whenever the UN tells sovereign nations what to do, but this time people are falling for it hook, line and sinker.

You are no better than the doctor would originally falsely connected vaccines with autism. You are nothing but a useless conspiracy theorist.

The reason this has entered the news is that measles was basically eradicated in the US at the beginning of the millenium but recently it has returned as vaccination rates have declined because of people like you. Same goes for together developed countries, a huge increase in measles classes has occured as vaccination has dropped.

You support the spread of a dangerous disease that is easily preventable. You should have the degree stripped from you, it like someone holding a degree in math debating that Pythagorean theorem is wrong.