Supreme Court refuses to hear challenge to U.S. gun silencer law

[pamak]

I take it that you have never shot a handgun with a suppressor on it. They are more cumbersome and more difficult to conceal. And unless you have suppressor sites on most guns they are more difficult to accurately aim. I'd rather shot a handgun without a suppressor than one with one.

Rifles are even more cumbersome and difficult to conceal than small handguns with suppressors but people do it very often in mass shootings.

 

[ecofarm]

Okay!

By the way, as I said, there is no reason to restrict the conversation to pistols only since rifles are used very often for mass shootings.

Can you (or anybody else) explain to me why the site I posted says things like,

With all of that, both of these cartridges can be accurate rounds within 100 yards. Just taking a position from the numbers we have, there is not going to be any significant advantages or disadvantages between these cartridges at close range. The 7.62×39 does have slightly more recoil energy than the 5.56×45, and this could impact quick shots in succession being accurate.

See the link in my #191 post

There's a huge recoil difference. The most important part is "quick shots in succession". That's not "sniper".

Ultimately, I'll take stand off range every time. I wanna dictate when and where the engagement occurs, and kill them before they have range on me if possible.

 

[SLC]

Rifles are even more cumbersome and difficult to conceal than small handguns with suppressors but people do it very often in mass shootings.

There is a reason why suppressors are RARELY used in mass shootings.

 

[pamak]

There's a huge recoil difference. The most important part is "quick shots in succession". That's not "sniper".

Ultimately, I'll take stand off range every time. I wanna dictate when and where the engagement occurs, and kill them before they have range on me if possible.

I am not familiar with the 5.56 cal. rifle. It was actually introduced to my unit right after we left. I missed it by a couple of months or so. The article talks about a "slightly" more recoil energy of the 7.62 which affects its accuracy. I suspect that the even a slight increase in the recoil energy can have a big difference in a gun which to us at that time looked more like a toy compared to the much heavier FN FAL ( we saw the new rifles but we did not shoot with them). But of course, if the mass of the weapon is an issue then this also means that a slight difference in recoil may have a big impact when one handles very light guns like pistols!

 

[ecofarm]

I am not familiar with the 5.56 cal. rifle. It was actually introduced to my unit right after we left. I missed it by a couple of months or so. The article talks about a "slightly" more recoil energy of the 7.62. Of course, I suspect that the even a slight difference in that energy can have a big difference in a gun which to us at that time looked more like a toy compared to the much heavier FN FAL. But oof course, if the mass of the weapon is an issue then this also means that a slight difference in recoil may have get impact when one handles very light guns like pistols!

The 5.56 has stand-off range against most 7.62s. I believe the AK74, in a longer cartridge 7.62 has greater range but it's not standard issue. It's a sniper rifle with Geneva violation rounds (tumble).

 

[pamak]

The 5.56 has stand-off range against most 7.62s. I believe the AK74, in a longer cartridge 7.62 has greater range but it's not standard issue. It's a sniper rifle with Geneva violation rounds (tumble).

My recollection from 28 years ago (as much as I can recall) was that the FN FAL at least (standard version) was considered superior in longer ranges of about 400 m compared to the new 5.56 rifles. But the idea was that overall, the Greek military (and I think most NATO armies at the time) saw that it was not realistic to have really effective engagements of around 400 yards (actually meters in Greek measuring units which is somewhat longer than 400 yards) in a battlefield environment. So, the big army guys wanted a new rifle of 5.56 cal which was better at shorter ranges with less weight and more bullets per pound even if there was some sacrifice of effective firepower at ranges of about 400 meters.

 

[ecofarm]

My recollection from 28 years ago (as much as I can recall) was that the FN FAL at least (standard version) was considered superior in longer ranges of about 400 m compared to the new 5.56 rifles. But the idea was that overall, the Greek military (and I think most NATO armies at the time) saw that it was not realistic to have really effective engagements of around 400 yards (actually meters in Greek measuring units which is somewhat longer than 400 yards) in a battlefield environment. So, the big army guys wanted a new rifle of 5.56 cal which was better at shorter ranges with less weight and more bullets per pound even if there as some sacrifice of effective firepower at ranges of about 400 meters.

Marines qualify at 500 yards.

 

[pamak]

Marines qualify at 500.

Well, a lot of times ideas change over time. I read recently that in Afghanistan and Iraq there were many situations where The US troops found a need to engage targets at longer ranges and they were overpowered by Russian made rifles.
Anyway, I speak only about what I knew regarding the Greek military in 1991. Today, I do not even know what type of training my unit has. What I do know the last time I checked was that this was furthered reduced to about a year, so I am sure that shorter time will also lead to lower standards of qualifications. In my time though the qualification did not come from a shooting range of 500 meters. I am sure that it was at 400 meters! On the other hand, our shooting qualification came almost immediately after the completion of the 50 K forced march. We had something like a 10 minute rests and then we were escorted to the shooting range.

 

[ecofarm]

Well, a lot of times ideas change over time. I read recently that in Afghanistan and Iraq there were many situations where The US troops found a need to engage targets at longer ranges and they were overpowered by Russian made rifles.
Anyway, I speak only about what I knew regarding the Greek military in 1991. Today, I do not even know what type of training my unit has. What I do know the last time I checked was that this was furthered reduced to about a year, so I am sure that shorter time will also lead to lower standards of qualifications. In my time though the qualification did not come from a shooting percentage at 500 yards. I am sure that it was at 400 yards! On the other hand, our shooting qualification came almost immediately after the completion of the 50 K forced march. We had something like a 10 minute rests nd then we were escorted to the shooting range.

Russian AKs have much shorter range.

We occasionally had stressed qualifications as well. After marches, at night, stuff like that.

Stand-off range doesn't just mean being able to engage at a greater distance. It means dictating where and when the engagement takes place. With stand-off range, one can literally push people around.

 

[pamak]

Russian AKs have much shorter range.

We occasionally had stressed qualifications as well. After marches, at night, stuff like that.

Stand-off range doesn't just mean being able to engage at a greater distance. It means dictating where and when the engagement takes place. With stand-off range, one can literally push people around.

We occasionally had practice one targets at ranges of 500 m, but we did not have to satisfy any minimum requirement of accuracy at that range. All qualifications were 400 meters or shorter. This does not mean that there were no consequences for "poor performance" at 500 meters but such poor performance would not actually affect the prospects of a conscript who wanted to serve in the unit.

 

[Northern Light]

They reduce the sound. They do not eliminate it.

Hollywood silencers are different from real ones.

Good to know. I know fire arms but I don't know silencers.

 

[Northern Light]

Someone can just as easily walk into harms way, when a gun isn't suppressed.

If a person is down range, they won't be able to tell which way the muzzle report is coming from, until they hear the bullet crack as it passes them. They certainly won't be able to tell which direction the gun is firing.

That's true, good point.

 

[ecofarm]

We occasionally had practice one targets at ranges of 500 m, but we did not have to satisfy any minimum requirement of accuracy at that range. All qualifications were 400 meters or shorter. This does not mean that there were no consequences for "poor performance" at 500 meters but such poor performance would not actually affect the prospects of a conscript who wanted to serve in the unit.

You're Nato. You have stand-off range against Russians and the rest.

 

[Northern Light]

So using that logic, there should be a law that all knives have a cowbell permanently attached to alert people to crime.

Well, my view of silencers was wrong in the first place, clearly.

But let's say silencers really did work like in the movies like I wrongly thought they might. Yes, it would make crime, including lethal crime, easier to commit because there would be less sound to alert people that gun violence is happening.

The knife analogy is cute but not very convincing. You know knives and guns are not the same in any way, not as tools or not in how they are implemented to commit crimes.

 

[pamak]

You're Nato. You have stand-off range against Russians and the rest.

Actually for Greeks the biggest enemy was our NATO allies, the Turks!

LOLOL


Even today things have not changed much. There are still dogfights over the Aegean which come just one step close to firing a missile....

 

[ecofarm]

Actually for Greeks the biggest enemy was our NATO allies, the Turks!

LOLOL

I hear ya. There was talk of Turkey joining the EU a few years ago. What a joke that was.

 

[pamak]

One example,

Turkey and Greece's secret war over the Aegean Sea just turned deadly - Business Insider


A 'secret war' between Turkey and Greece just turned deadly after a long history of dogfights over the Aegean Sea

 

[ecofarm]

Even today things have not changed much. There are still dogfights over the Aegean which come just one step close to firing a missile....

Those are some pretty islands.

 

[pamak]

Those are some pretty islands.

There are also plenty and tough to defend all of them against a determined invader. My unit was solely focused on reinforcing fast threatened regions in the Aegean. In the past, and during the most recent Turkish invasion in Cyprus, my sister unit from Maleme Crete (same airport that became the place of fierce battles in WWII between German paratroopers who invaded Crete and fought against British and Greeks) was sent to Cyprus (look at the map to see the distance) with no air protection to reinforce it. We are talking about an airborne battalion against the Turkish army. It ddi not end up well....

 

[Nap]

I think laws banning and/or requiring registration/taxes for suppressors are altogether ignorant of what they actually do, but I also don't see how they are or should be protected by the second amendment as they are merely an accessory/safety device. These kinds of laws are precisely why I don't trust most politicians that call for or try to legislate gun control as their knowledge of guns largely comes from Hollywood.

 

[ecofarm]

There are also plenty and tough to defend all of them against a determined invader. My unit was solely focused on reinforcing fast threatened regions in the Aegean. In the past, and during the most recent Turkish invasion in Cyprus, my sister unit from Maleme Crete (same airport that became the place of fierce battles in WWII between German paratroopers who invaded Crete and fought against British and Greeks) was sent to Cyprus (look at the map to see the distance) with no air protection to reinforce it. We are talking about an airborne battalion against the Turkish army. It ddi not end up well....

If it was up to me, they'd be your islands. I don't trust Turkey one bit.

 

[pamak]

If it was up to me, they'd be your islands. I don't trust Turkey one bit.

The name of that operation was NIKI (Victory in Greek). It started horribly after friendly Cypriot fire shot down one airplane and damaged all others while they were trying to land at night at the airport. Supposedly, a signal was sent that Greek airplanes were coming, but because of mistakes and the fact that the Turkish air force was dominating the skies during the day (which made the AA gunners nervous) and the fact that there were rumors that Turkish paratroopers may actually attempt to capture the airport, the result was that the Greek airplanes were misidentified as Turkish and there was little time to inform the batteries around the airport about the arrival (using messengers of course, since Cypriots lacked even basic signal equipment.

Here is one link with some details

Operation Niki - Wikipedia

Still those who made it managed to at least protect the airport which remained under Cypriot control.

 

[ecofarm]

The name of that operation was NIKI (Victory in Greek). It started horribly after friendly Cypriot fire shot down one airplane and damaged all others while they were trying to land at night at the airport. Supposedly, a signal was sent that Greek airplanes were coming, but because of mistakes and the fact that the Turkish air force was dominating the skies during the day (which made the AA gunners nervous) and the fact that there were rumors that Turkish paratroopers may actually attempt to capture the airport, the result was that the Greek airplanes were misidentified as Turkish and there was little time to inform the batteries around the airport about the arrival (using messengers of course, since Cypriots lacked even basic signal equipment.

Here is one link with some details

Operation Niki - Wikipedia

Still those who made it managed to at least protect the airport which remained under Cypriot control.

The bird coming under fire is the nightmare.

 

[CanadaJohn]

I readily admit I know little about the issue and while I have zero interest in guns I also have zero interest in the fight against those who have a legal and legitimate interest in guns.

That said, seems this was a case where two people were attempting to skirt manufacturing and taxation laws and we all know and must accept that government and its courts are totally in sync when it comes to protecting the government's right to tax.

The issue of registration, however, is another that should not be dismissed lightly. Here in Canada, a previous Liberal government created a long gun registry that required legal owners to register their guns and pay a fee to do so. It was widely abhorred by legal gun owners. It turned out that this registration law was used, illegally, by the RCMP (national police force) during the flooding of a municipality in the Calgary area several years back. Under the pretext of "public safety", the RCMP used the gun registry to identify homes in the area that had registered guns in them. They then entered those homes, after a mandatory evacuation, even homes that weren't flooded, and seized all guns in those homes. Many of those seizures required the police to search for gun safes and then break into those gun safes to collect the guns, all in the name of searching homes for people who may be in destress. The RCMP at first denied the allegations and then made up excuses to cover their illegal activity.

Never underestimate the ability and the desire of government bureaucrats and law enforcement to break the law for their own purposes and then to cover this up at a later date.

 

[Fledermaus]

Sure!

Take the distance in which a person of certain shooting skills, actually barely makes it and hits the head of the target (even though he aims at the torso) In fact, this was the result of my first experience with a pistol. And if the argument is that other than a complete novice, as I was at that time, a barely skilled person can achieve better results (which is debatable in real life situations), there will ALWAYS be a certain value of range in which any person of a certain skill will be challenged to strike a target. For such (or longer) distances a very small reduction in recoil can make the difference between killing or missing the target.

Now...

Take what you believe to be your one benefit (recoil) and factor in the increased weight, bulk, change of CG, obfuscation of sights, etc.

And take into account the shootings in this case were at minimal range....