Such A Nightmare

[Koke]

If there is a way to circumvent citizenship laws by coming here illegally and having children of illegal descent, what is the point of having laws? A classic example (of which there are many) could be something like this: if a parent robs a bank and steals money but deposits the money in an account of the child, is the cash legally laundered? Of course not.

 

[PeteEU]

Ok, but first we have to deport Obama back to Kenya and get his college grades released.

Hmm Obama was born to an American woman in America. Mrs Trump was in the US illegally before she married Trump... yea that is the same nod... :shock:

 

[AYSM]

You're looking at it wrong. First, DACA is illegal. Second, the number of people aren't as important as how much they cost. I'm not saying that the cost of DACA people is astronomically high but $$$s are more important than ###s.

I didn't make a claim to the legality of DACA...in fact, I'll go a step further and submit that legality is a rather poor standard to use considering our justice system is a farce and quite selective in it's enforcement...from many sides...many sides.

As to how much they cost...that's just what I was hoping someone would contribute to this BBQ...have you got any numbers to even justify it as being important? Are you sure they cost more than they contribute?

I'm not doubting your claim, nor can I support it without more info.

 

[AYSM]

Ok, but first we have to deport Obama back to Kenya and get his college grades released.

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. -Socrates

 

[digsbe]

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. -Socrates

It's not slander, it's called hyperbolic partisan sarcasm to illustrate how ridiculous something else sounds.

 

[Phys251]

That's right. Has nothing to do with the law or being a sovereign nation with borders and immigration control.

Just open the borders and let everyone in. We can afford it. We can all wear our ***** hats down to get our government checks. /of the nation

+1 :mrgreen:

 

[Phys251]

I never said anything justified not having the immigration law changed by congress or that congress should pass laws that they will not appropriate funds to have enforced.

If we don't get the immigration system fixed then this is all a moot point. We're going round and round over whether to enforce a broken system. Whether or not to deport the DREAMers is not the real issue here.

 

[ttwtt78640]

I didn't make a claim to the legality of DACA...in fact, I'll go a step further and submit that legality is a rather poor standard to use considering our justice system is a farce and quite selective in it's enforcement...from many sides...many sides.

As to how much they cost...that's just what I was hoping someone would contribute to this BBQ...have you got any numbers to even justify it as being important? Are you sure they cost more than they contribute?

I'm not doubting your claim, nor can I support it without more info.

Hmm... laws are a poor legal standard?

DACA is not a law it is a very selective enforcement policy that you seem to dislike.

 

[<alt>doxygen]

I agree with your edit...trying to group them into a single entity is just wrong.

Even taking the high number we don't reach 5% of the population...most of us pay a higher percentage of our income to cover sales tax...deport the real criminals but additional mass deportation will have a major adverse effect on our economy and future growth.

Personally, I doubt that Trump actually gives a damn about the issue...red meat for the base and create more chaos in congress...he's rather prone to creating failure in his attempts to make congress look bad, like they need more on their plate...in his sick mind that justifies him as being able to see himself as a winner...it's always someone else's fault.

If, as you say, he doesn't need congress that makes for a stronger case that he's just heaping more on their plate rather than growing some balls, take action, accept the responsibility of his actions.

Maybe he's getting the hang of this government stuff...he wants the authority and control but not the responsibility for the results...just claim victory for his minions even when there isn't much that actually justifies it.

He's suppose to be the big success in the television industry but if you took this script to Hollywood they'd probably reject it as being too absurd to be made to seem believable.

drip drip drip

Trump's sole talent seems to be the ability to size up a group and tell them what they want to hear. What astonishes me is, 1) that so many want to hear the kinds of things Trump says, and 2) that they actually fall for his B.S.

 

[Rogue Valley]

Trump can't deliver on 25 million new American jobs, 4% annual GDP increases, a wall paid for by Mexico, or his fabulous healthcare plan that will cover all Americans at a fraction of the cost.

But Trump can certainly deliver up this vulnerable pound of flesh to his increasingly restless base.

 

[ttwtt78640]

If we don't get the immigration system fixed then this is all a moot point. We're going round and round over whether to enforce a broken system. Whether or not to deport the DREAMers is not the real issue here.

Exactly, the real issue is whether laws passed by congress should be enforced as written. If the POTUS can change (or selectively enforce) one federal law then why not any and all federal laws?

 

[AYSM]

If there is a way to circumvent citizenship laws by coming here illegally and having children of illegal descent, what is the point of having laws? A classic example (of which there are many) could be something like this: if a parent robs a bank and steals money but deposits the money in an account of the child, is the cash legally laundered? Of course not.

When laws aren't enforced there isn't much they are good for and likely not considered that big of a deal or we wouldn't have a statute of limitations that makes the charge moot...as for your laundering example...the ones I've met like clean clothes and a nice shower after a hard day of sweating and singing while hard at work.

Robbing a bank is illegal and the person should be prosecuted not exported...sentence them to a chain gang that specializes in wall building...why not take advantage of cheap labor...the cost factor was mentioned by another...got that covered...bring back Sheriff Joe...he can feed them for less than the cost of feeding his dogs...sounds like a good plan...cheap labor and strong healthy dogs to keep them in line.

 

[Koke]

When laws aren't enforced there isn't much they are good for and likely not considered that big of a deal or we wouldn't have a statute of limitations that makes the charge moot...as for your laundering example...the ones I've met like clean clothes and a nice shower after a hard day of sweating and singing while hard at work.

Robbing a bank is illegal and the person should be prosecuted not exported...sentence them to a chain gang that specializes in wall building...why not take advantage of cheap labor...the cost factor was mentioned by another...got that covered...bring back Sheriff Joe...he can feed them for less than the cost of feeding his dogs...sounds like a good plan...cheap labor and strong healthy dogs to keep them in line.

You do understand that personal anecdotes are not arguments?

 

[ttwtt78640]

When laws aren't enforced there isn't much they are good for and likely not considered that big of a deal or we wouldn't have a statute of limitations that makes the charge moot...as for your laundering example...the ones I've met like clean clothes and a nice shower after a hard day of sweating and singing while hard at work.

Robbing a bank is illegal and the person should be prosecuted not exported...sentence them to a chain gang that specializes in wall building...why not take advantage of cheap labor...the cost factor was mentioned by another...got that covered...bring back Sheriff Joe...he can feed them for less than the cost of feeding his dogs...sounds like a good plan...cheap labor and strong healthy dogs to keep them in line.

A foreign citizen being in the US illegally does not cease after X days or years. You do not become no longer illegal simply becuase you have not been identifiied as such within X days or years of your letest illegal entry.

 

[ecofarm]

Beneficiaries of the DREAM Act must meet the following requirements:[3]
Not have entered the United States on a non-immigrant visa
Have proof of having arrived in the United States before age 16[4]
Have proof of residence in the United States for at least five consecutive years since their date of arrival
If male, have registered with the Selective Service
Be between the ages of 12 and 35 at the time of bill enactment
Have graduated from an American high school, obtained a GED, or been admitted to an institution of higher education
Be of good moral character[5]

During the first six years, qualifying people would be granted "conditional" status and would be required to (a) graduate from a two-year community college or (b) complete at least two years towards a four-year degree or (c) serve two years in the US military. After this six-year period, those who meet at least one of these three conditions would be eligible to apply for permanent resident status. During this six-year conditional period, they would not be eligible for federal higher education grants such as Pell grants but they would be able to apply for student loans and work study.[6]

If they have met all of the conditions at the end of the 6-year conditional period, they would be granted permanent residency, which would eventually allow them to become U.S. citizens.[7] It is not known how many of those eligible would go on to complete the further requirements. One organization estimated that only 7,000–13,000 college students nationally can fulfill the further obligations.[8] A different analysis found that over 2 million individuals could benefit under the Act.[9]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DREAM_Act#Requirements


That's a nightmare? What happened to "I'm not against immigration; I just want the best, brightest and most assimilated".

 

[AYSM]

You do understand that personal anecdotes are not arguments?

Perhaps not but they can be used to help clarify a position on the argument, can't they?

Then again, perhaps they can be discounted leaving one free to address the argument made in the bulk of the quote.

Perhaps I was being as serious as I felt your rather absurd comparison deserved.

 

[Koke]

Perhaps not but they can be used to help clarify a position on the argument, can't they?

Then again, perhaps they can be discounted leaving one free to address the argument made in the bulk of the quote.

Perhaps I was being as serious as I felt your rather absurd comparison deserved.

You've still yet to prove how my comparison was "absurd". You still have yet to prove that the circumvention or breaking of laws, even when considering family members effected by the law breaker, is justifiable.

I'm not trying to be pompous or annoying but if I can't get an answer which isn't anecdotal or emotional dribble to what I've said, then I'm not interested in the argument.

 

[AYSM]

A foreign citizen being in the US illegally does not cease after X days or years. You do not become no longer illegal simply becuase you have not been identifiied as such within X days or years of your letest illegal entry.

Of course not but it does lead to where I wanted to go with my next point which is the rather dubious connection between illegality and justice...often times justice has more to do with connections and net worth than the reality as pertains to the law...in the absence of connections or some bucks to buy your justice we are stuck with practical application which might result in a reevaluation of the question of whether justice is served by enforcement of laws that result in a negative outcome for the country as a whole. Laws can be changed while justice can be rather arbitrary regardless of the law or laws in question.

 

[TobyOne]

Even one spot at a college/university in CA which would have been taken by a US citizen instead of an illegal is too high.

I didn't make a claim to the legality of DACA...in fact, I'll go a step further and submit that legality is a rather poor standard to use considering our justice system is a farce and quite selective in it's enforcement...from many sides...many sides.

As to how much they cost...that's just what I was hoping someone would contribute to this BBQ...have you got any numbers to even justify it as being important? Are you sure they cost more than they contribute?

I'm not doubting your claim, nor can I support it without more info.

 

[Dirt Sands]

^^^ Wrong answer to the wrong non-asked question.

My Euro-American ancestors landed in New England in the 1640s and crossed the Sabine in 1834.

They were white. The land owners were people of color in both cases.

So your more ****ing American than me? That's right, your not. My ancestors were the first Baptist missionaries to cross the Mississippi.

And guess what, your ancestral line is full of muts. You are not 100% what you said you are.

You are only into laws you agree with. The president you support will have to be pardoned soon enough for laundering money for Russia.

Of all the bad things that can be said about Trump, you won't say one.

What a hippocrit[emoji16]

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[Dirt Sands]

That's right. Has nothing to do with the law or being a sovereign nation with borders and immigration control.

Just open the borders and let everyone in. We can afford it. We can all wear our ***** hats down to get our government checks. /of the nation

Way, way, waaaayyy more people are getting government checks than illigal immigrants.

Let's start with corporate welfare. So now we have kick them out. Let's kick out all churches that don't pay taxes. Next we have to kick out all charitable organizations that don't pay taxes, how about all the ranchers and oil drillers that use public lands for free. Did I ****ing mention your grandmother who collects social security. And the guy in the ER because he was beaten by the cops.

Your a freeloader yourself on this website because you don't pay for it or even read the adds.

You couldn't have gotten a loan or grant for college because your to stupid

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[Carleen]

Its a sad thing but lets see what congress does.
It was punted to them lets see if they actually do something or just make more empty threats &/or promises.
Guess we will know what America truly stands for within 6 months.

Since congress is divided it will be a real challenge to see what happens. If this does come about, how will it be enforced and what will the effect be on workers and the economy? It seems it will be a total disaster.

 

[AYSM]

You've still yet to prove how my comparison was "absurd". You still have yet to prove that the circumvention or breaking of laws, even when considering family members effected by the law breaker, is justifiable.

I'm not trying to be pompous or annoying but if I can't get an answer which isn't anecdotal or emotional dribble to what I've said, then I'm not interested in the argument.

Equating a crime such as robbing a bank to someone guilty of trying to live a healthy productive life by benefitting from the opportunity presented to them which is pretty much a victimless crime...yes, both are considered to be illegal but one should obviously be viewed as more egregious so I find your analogy a bit absurd. If there is no distinction then we should have no need for a distinction between a misdemeanor and a felony. I would be interested in understanding why you see the issue akin to bank robbery?

As to your problem with a small part of my post you quoted and avoided addressing my argument contained in the remainder...it appears neither of us are very impressed with the other at this point in the discussion and with your readiness to discount me, should you choose to not bother with my dribble any further you might want to use your mouse to zip on by and save the insults...on the other hand...save them for the basement and get back to me after my 30 day requirement for access has arrived.

On the other hand perhaps your example trying to link the receipt of stolen bank money to the crime of crossing a border into a land which we stole from someone else...quite possibly their ancestors...why would one go to jail while the other is merely disposed of if your analogy bears much merit pertaining to the reality of the situation?

You feel I'm trying to justify a crime while I don't believe I have done so...my argument is more focused on justice and laws and punishment that evolves when factoring in some common sense...if you wish to continue with absurd analogies how about you make the case for justification of a 30 year prison sentence for possession of a joint...haven't heard of such a thing recently but there was a time where some laws didn't seem to carry penalties fitting the crime...and yet during the same timeframe I can provide a first hand account of how 14 felonies can be reduced to one misdemeanor simply by having connections in the right place at the right time...and following a judges orders to lie under oath in court.

More anecdotal nonsense or too much reality for you to even believe?

Take my posts however you wish or ignore them or not...just be happy with your decision.

I'll be more than happy to review any answers to the questions I've asked should you choose to start addressing them, it may help in the process of my gaining understanding as to why you feel this is such an important issue...especially now with so many other things that are much more important...at least hang on to the DACA folks who are probably doing more than either you or me in helping their fellow human beings during their time of need in Houston...wait until that's done before throwing them out...maybe we can compromise?

I'll try and refrain from liberal minded emotional drivel while you can try help me understand how conservatism and compassion fit together like peas and carrots.

 

[AYSM]

Just open the borders and let everyone in. We can afford it. We can all wear our ***** hats down to get our government checks. /of the nation

I find it sad that you see your manhood at risk and plan to have the government support you when you lose it...if lots of people join you we are going to have to start recruiting illegal aliens to support you, perhaps one of them will let you have their sombrero if you have too small a hat to provide adequate coverage of your ummm...issue.

Btw, thanks for the chuckle...I love a good bit of hypocrisy...nice siggy...

"Remember, the circumstances of your birth don't determine the outcome of your life."

:unsure13:

 

[ttwtt78640]

If there is a way to circumvent citizenship laws by coming here illegally and having children of illegal descent, what is the point of having laws? A classic example (of which there are many) could be something like this: if a parent robs a bank and steals money but deposits the money in an account of the child, is the cash legally laundered? Of course not.

Since the child did not help in the crime and had no choice but to accept the gift from their parent then the innocent kid gets to keep the benefits obtained by the criminal act of the parent - or so the theory goes if the crime was illegal immigration.