So how did he get in? Are all the security measures worthless?

[Perotista]

That just proves to me it isn't about the guns, but about society. We have the most violent movies, shows and video games ever. Kids have grown immune to it. What do people think will happen when killing people is 'game' and the most realistic game is the best? Kids used to respect school officials, adults in general and law enforcement. Now? Not so much.
Is it the parents? Or has society even tied the parents hands too much that punishment for bad behavior is now a 10 minute time out? Anything more is child abuse.

And no, I don't mean beating your kids, so don't even go there.

I agree. There is probably more than a thousand reason why our society has become as ill as it has. You touched on some, I on others. But I think most folks aren't interested in finding the root causes and trying to fix society as a whole. Perhaps they're afraid of what they might find, who knows?

 

[Lovebug]

Exactly. Gun control is like treating a patient who has brain cancer for a fever by giving the patient aspirin. Treating the symptom, but not the cause. Perhaps those who advocate gun control, treating the symptom don't really want to know the cause. The cause will still be there, unabetted, in full bloom even after gun control or giving the patient aspirin.

We don't like to be inconvenienced, to say the least. Blaming gun laws is easier than reflecting, taking a good look in the mirror. If something is "off", we rather walk by quickly rather than getting involved. We tend to take a video clip instead of helping a victim. We interact via social media instead of picking up a phone or visiting someone.

 

[apdst]

Blaming schools is pretty much what we should expect from the gun crowd here at DP.
What do you expect from the 'bump stocks are our 2nd amendment right' folks?
You won't see any of these people signing up to be the secretary that dies first after she lets them in, legally.

Today we saw my greatest fear realized, similar to shooters waiting for students when they exit a building when school lets out. We have a half dozen exits at our HS, impossible to cover them all.

I didn't know about this massacre with WMDs, weapons of massacre and death, until after I went in to help teach today. I went to my car before wrestling practice, listened to the news, and could only think of my reaction to Sandy Hook, my birthday.

We currently have a few students on expulsion for bringing guns to school.
One mistake by our beloved secretary is all it would take.

Who's going to pay for the next round of security measures, such as metal detectors sweeping our sports events?
Certainly not the extreme wing of the NRA which controls the GOP.
How many mentally unstable students will now copycat pulling alarms around our Nation?
Who could argue with a student who is afraid to walk out of the school ???

If the school installed an ineffective security system, then yes, the school should be called out for having piss poor security in place.

 

[poweRob]

For over ten years I haven't been to a school where you could just walk in. They keep the doors locked and there are barriers, and someone has to "buzz" you in.

Most schools have a "resource officer" (aka cop) on site during school hours... some have two. Armed.


So how did this guy just waltz in with an AR15 and nobody knew until he started shooting? Nobody prevented him entering. Apparently no armed school resource officer intervened during the shooting.


Did this school just not have such security measures, or did they fail? If the latter, how?


I really, really want to know, but such details are scant in such shooting incidents.

Broward County Public Schools Superintendent Robert Runcie said it was a dark day in the county's history.

"It's a horrific situation. It's just a horrible day for us," he said. "... This is a day we prayed would never happen in our county."

He said every high school in the county has a police presence, adding there are typically two officers at every school.

link...​

 

[Thoreau72]

I checked and confirmed what I'd heard before, that at Sandy Hook, Adam Lanza "shot out a glass panel next to the locked front doors".


GLASS? What the **** is the point of having the doors locked if there's an acre of GLASS to break?

I assumed all that stuff at the front of the school that looks like glass is Lexan. You aren't going to shoot Lexan out, not if its any thickness. You could put holes in it but it won't shatter, from my experience with it.


GLASS, of all things...

Apparently Newtown had no cops on site, no "resource officers" at the place... the cops didn't enter the building until after the last shot was fired. Useless... you can't stop a shooter unless you have armed responders on hand or very close by.

I know you of all people are not trying to get SH started again, but I do recall that matter of the broken glass at the front, but I'm not sure of the context. But it is a fact that when the building was finally demolished months later, the company that did the demolition and its employees all had to sign non-disclosure agreements regarding what they would see inside. FWIW

As to the question posed in the thread, it is a fundamental part of military strategy and tactics that ANY defensive system can be defeated with enough study and determination. Did Cruz' experience in ROTC help him with that? I don't know, but I do know that it's true, any defense can be defeated, given enough time and thought.

 

[BreadConqueror]

For over ten years I haven't been to a school where you could just walk in. They keep the doors locked and there are barriers, and someone has to "buzz" you in.

Most schools have a "resource officer" (aka cop) on site during school hours... some have two. Armed.


So how did this guy just waltz in with an AR15 and nobody knew until he started shooting? Nobody prevented him entering. Apparently no armed school resource officer intervened during the shooting.


Did this school just not have such security measures, or did they fail? If the latter, how?


I really, really want to know, but such details are scant in such shooting incidents.

I am a high school teacher.

It's easy to say "why didn't they..." after the fact, but if you have ever actually been on a high school campus, you would know why.

High schools are huge, they have dozens of entrances. Some have annexes because they have grown since being built. So they have buildings with students which are not a part of the main hub.

There is NO WAY to police and secure all entrances. There is NO WAY to lock down an entire facility without more funding for more security.

Many of our schools already look like prisons. Why don't we go ahead and cut out the middle men, put the children right into jail the moment they hit 14.

That is NOT an environment conducive to learning.

This is not an issue isolated from our education struggles. The need for structure and security limits the intellectual flexibility of students and teachers.

The fear born of a police state mentality breeds an environment of fear. It causes people to be reliant upon a nanny state.

Anyone who is actually a conservative should resist police-state reactions.

This is an issue of too many accessible firearms and too much ammunition.

I don't give a crap how much you like to target shoot. Get your sense of fulfillment elsewhere. Try charity.

 

[Lursa]

This is an issue of too many accessible firearms and too much ammunition.

I don't give a crap how much you like to target shoot. Get your sense of fulfillment elsewhere. Try charity.

It's alot more than that but if that's your attitude, your value of our lives and our choices for defense (and recreation), then thanks, I'll keep them and let "you people" deal with protecting "your kids". Or not.

Risks of home invasion and personal crimes like car jacking & rape are higher for many people than a kid getting shot in school. For God's sake, those kids are in more danger on the bus or in car pools going to school everyday than they are from gun violence at school.

 

[Perotista]

We don't like to be inconvenienced, to say the least. Blaming gun laws is easier than reflecting, taking a good look in the mirror. If something is "off", we rather walk by quickly rather than getting involved. We tend to take a video clip instead of helping a victim. We interact via social media instead of picking up a phone or visiting someone.

Very true. Fixing societies ills is not something most of us want to do or be inconvenienced with. What most would find out is that society has been going down the wrong path. We probably have passed that point of no return along that path already.

 

[RAMOSS]

If I remember correctly you live in rather small community with a near-zero crime rate.

That's lovely, but most of us don't.

My local high school , which has over 700 people attending, has video monitors, but does not have the excessive metal detectors you describe.

 

[apdst]

I am a high school teacher.

It's easy to say "why didn't they..." after the fact, but if you have ever actually been on a high school campus, you would know why.

High schools are huge, they have dozens of entrances. Some have annexes because they have grown since being built. So they have buildings with students which are not a part of the main hub.

There is NO WAY to police and secure all entrances. There is NO WAY to lock down an entire facility without more funding for more security.

Many of our schools already look like prisons. Why don't we go ahead and cut out the middle men, put the children right into jail the moment they hit 14.

That is NOT an environment conducive to learning.

This is not an issue isolated from our education struggles. The need for structure and security limits the intellectual flexibility of students and teachers.

The fear born of a police state mentality breeds an environment of fear. It causes people to be reliant upon a nanny state.

Anyone who is actually a conservative should resist police-state reactions.

This is an issue of too many accessible firearms and too much ammunition.

I don't give a crap how much you like to target shoot. Get your sense of fulfillment elsewhere. Try charity.

I agree. Let's continue to chase after fantasy laws that are either unconstitutional, or ineffective. It's worked great, so far.

 

[BreadConqueror]

It's alot more than that but if that's your attitude, your value of our lives and our choices for defense (and recreation), then thanks, I'll keep them and let "you people" deal with protecting "your kids". Or not.

Risks of home invasion and personal crimes like car jacking & rape are higher for many people than a kid getting shot in school. For God's sake, those kids are in more danger on the bus or in car pools going to school everyday than they are from gun violence at school.

I'm trying to protect all of our children.

No one is trying to take your personal defense weapon.

Long-rifles are not useful for home defense, or fighting off rapists or car jackers.

Try to pull a long rifle in a car. You will look like an idiot and you will be robbed.

Shotguns are the best for home defense. They also are great for hunting.

They aren't great for mass shootings.

And far more children have been killed by firearms this year than bus crashes, so your example is weak.

 

[Goshin]

I am a high school teacher.

It's easy to say "why didn't they..." after the fact, but if you have ever actually been on a high school campus, you would know why.

High schools are huge, they have dozens of entrances. Some have annexes because they have grown since being built. So they have buildings with students which are not a part of the main hub.

There is NO WAY to police and secure all entrances. There is NO WAY to lock down an entire facility without more funding for more security.

Many of our schools already look like prisons. Why don't we go ahead and cut out the middle men, put the children right into jail the moment they hit 14.

That is NOT an environment conducive to learning.

This is not an issue isolated from our education struggles. The need for structure and security limits the intellectual flexibility of students and teachers.

The fear born of a police state mentality breeds an environment of fear. It causes people to be reliant upon a nanny state.

Anyone who is actually a conservative should resist police-state reactions.

This is an issue of too many accessible firearms and too much ammunition.

I don't give a crap how much you like to target shoot. Get your sense of fulfillment elsewhere. Try charity.

I've been on high school campuses.... obviously.

Quite a few actually, on the job. Also my son graduated just a few years ago.

All the schools in my area have a buzz-in barrier, keep all outside doors locked unless under adult supervision, and have a cop on hand during school hours.


Having said that.... what one person can make another person can break, if they spend enough time and effort to find a way.


I'm amazed you decry a police state in one breath, then in the next imply some kind of gun ban is the answer.

You can't have one without the other. Not in any practical sense. The automatic weapons used in the Charlie Hebdo massacre were all illegal in France.


But I don't want to derail the thread into yet another tired argument about gun control, there's plenty of that elsewhere on DP.


My inquiries here are focused on what security measures were in place and how they were circumvented so that hopefully we can improve same.

 

[holbritter]

I am a high school teacher.

It's easy to say "why didn't they..." after the fact, but if you have ever actually been on a high school campus, you would know why.

High schools are huge, they have dozens of entrances. Some have annexes because they have grown since being built. So they have buildings with students which are not a part of the main hub.

There is NO WAY to police and secure all entrances. There is NO WAY to lock down an entire facility without more funding for more security.

Many of our schools already look like prisons. Why don't we go ahead and cut out the middle men, put the children right into jail the moment they hit 14.

That is NOT an environment conducive to learning.

This is not an issue isolated from our education struggles. The need for structure and security limits the intellectual flexibility of students and teachers.

The fear born of a police state mentality breeds an environment of fear. It causes people to be reliant upon a nanny state.

Anyone who is actually a conservative should resist police-state reactions.

This is an issue of too many accessible firearms and too much ammunition.

I don't give a crap how much you like to target shoot. Get your sense of fulfillment elsewhere. Try charity.

How does the need for structure and security limit 'intellectual flexibility'??? You're in a classroom. Sounds like this kid could have used a little structure!

 

[ReverendHellh0und]

As a retired teacher still very active in our HS, I know of what I speak.
Remember when these extremists supported plastic guns; and guns that could be made from a printer at our school no less?! There's no end to this insanity, as our front secretary said to me upon leaving school today.

I wouldn't blame any student in this Nation for not wanting to go to school for the rest of the week.
What a great way to celebrate President's Day weekend.

Beginning tomorrow, we have our state wrestling tournament.
We'll go through the metal detectors going in.
There's no way to stop plastic explosives and guns from entering without dogs at each entrance.

Our wrestling community is a conservative one, but in the good sense.
I'll continue to listen to them watching the 'wind of change' sweeping our Nation ...

No such thing as a plastic gun that could be made by your school printer. that's a myth,


Banning guns wont stop guns or plastic explosives.


The right answer is allowing law abiding people to be armed.


Schools need "man trap" entrances and local PD on site at all times.

 

[Rogue Valley]

For over ten years I haven't been to a school where you could just walk in. They keep the doors locked and there are barriers, and someone has to "buzz" you in.

Most schools have a "resource officer" (aka cop) on site during school hours... some have two. Armed.


So how did this guy just waltz in with an AR15 and nobody knew until he started shooting? Nobody prevented him entering. Apparently no armed school resource officer intervened during the shooting.


Did this school just not have such security measures, or did they fail? If the latter, how?


I really, really want to know, but such details are scant in such shooting incidents.

As I understand it, he waited by a locked entrance until two students exited. He then stopped the door from closing, shot the two students dead, entered the building and donned a gas mask. He then triggered the school fire alarm which (as he knew by being a previous student) causes teachers to instruct their students to leave their classrooms and file outside. Thus, the 1st floor main corridor became crowded with students (a perfect kill zone). He had also brought along smoke grenades, but it is unknown at this time if he used any. He exited the school with the fleeing students, so this was not a murder/suicide mission. He was apprehended a number of blocks from the school based on a clothing description. He did not resist.

 

[Lursa]

I'm trying to protect all of our children.

No one is trying to take your personal defense weapon.

Long-rifles are not useful for home defense, or fighting off rapists or car jackers.

Try to pull a long rifle in a car. You will look like an idiot and you will be robbed.

Shotguns are the best for home defense. They also are great for hunting.

They aren't great for mass shootings.

And far more children have been killed by firearms this year than bus crashes, so your example is weak.

I'm not interested in YOU deciding what self-defense and recreational meet my needs.

And how about the number of kids killed in private vehicles to and from school?

 

[Brochacholomigo]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Yeah, our schools have goddamn glass panels with locks on them to keep the mass shooters out. In my next-to-last year at high school, one of the kids stumbled and shattered one of our external doors' panels with his knee. This wasn't even some hoss of a football player, the little bastard weighed about as much as I did ( roughly 130 -150 lbs.). Also, you can pick almost any lock with relative ease, those things aren't actually a deterrent for the impolite.

No amount of dead children will prevent public schools from being criminally stupid when it comes to logistics and safety.

 

[BreadConqueror]

I'm not interested in YOU deciding what self-defense and recreational meet my needs.

And how about the number of kids killed in private vehicles to and from school?

Your post is pretty much a classic example of a red herring.

 

[BreadConqueror]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Yeah, our schools have goddamn glass panels with locks on them to keep the mass shooters out. In my next-to-last year at high school, one of the kids stumbled and shattered one of our external doors' panels with his knee. This wasn't even some hoss of a football player, the little bastard weighed about as much as I did ( roughly 130 -150 lbs.). Also, you can pick almost any lock with relative ease, those things aren't actually a deterrent for the impolite.

No amount of dead children will prevent public schools from being criminally stupid when it comes to logistics and safety.

What is criminally stupid are our gun laws.

 

[Brochacholomigo]

What is criminally stupid are our gun laws.

Did I mention that two of our cameras in the hallway were angled up at the ceiling for several years? They only figured it out when a fight between classes wasn't caught on video due to the awful angle.

 

[SonOfDaedalus]

How did a 19-year-old kid, who everyone thought was kind of troubled, get all these guns?

 

[Lursa]

Your post is pretty much a classic example of a red herring.

Except that if you were actually worried about the safety of school kids, it's not.

It's just way easier to ignore the one or two, here and there, in the thousands every year. And it would really inconvenience parents to have to change it.

 

[Goshin]

As I understand it, he waited by a locked entrance until two students exited. He then stopped the door from closing, shot the two students dead, entered the building and donned a gas mask. He then triggered the school fire alarm which (as he knew by being a previous student) causes teachers to instruct their students to leave their classrooms and file outside. Thus, the 1st floor main corridor became crowded with students (a perfect kill zone). He had also brought along smoke grenades, but it is unknown at this time if he used any. He exited the school with the fleeing students, so this was not a murder/suicide mission. He was apprehended a number of blocks from the school based on a clothing description. He did not resist.

Thanks. First coherent explanation of how he got in.

I'd actually thought about something like that, but it seemed improbable that he could stand there that long (with gear and long gun) without been seen on surveillance or spotted by someone who realized he was suspicious.

But no security measures can ever be 100%....

 

[Goshin]

How did a 19-year-old kid, who everyone thought was kind of troubled, get all these guns?

I'd heard he bought it from an individual in private sale, but I don't know if that is confirmed.


Before ten people yell loophole and call for universal background checks.... he probably would have passed a background check at a gunstore anyway, tmk nothing in his background would have come up as a red flag as juvie records are sealed and school discipline issues don't show up on NICS.

not to mention mandating UBC for private sales is completely unenforceable... if they just ignore it you'll never know about it.

 

[Harshaw]

Well see that surprises me. I figured if my little podunk town had all this security, that probably most schools did.


Apparently it isn't so. Maybe it should be.

I don't have kids, but I do know you can walk into the schools I went to as a kid, where my nephews/nieces go.

As to what's different now from back when we were kids in the '70s/'80s, when this kind of stuff didn't happen . . . I wish I knew. Something. Something cultural is different.