Should we ban conversion therapy for minors?

[CaptainCourtesy]

These all sound like the negative effects associated with homosexuality itself.

Actually, it's not. It discusses the negative effects of the unethical and dangerous practice of conversion.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

There's nothing normal about Gay Bowel Syndrome.

So, you don't know the definition of the word "normal". Good to know that simple definitions such as that are another thing of which you are uneducated.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

I'll stop ranting about this when the gay lobby allows any actual science on homosexuality to be done.

Since that has already been done... and quite a lot of it, I now expect you to be quiet on the issue. Just because the research demonstrates that you don't know what you are talking about is irrelevant to whether or not you should speak.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

That's something that parents ought to decide.

Absolutely not. Parents have no say in either sending their children to treatment for something that is not a disorder or sending their children to a "treatment" that is abusive.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

Getting therapy to try to change your sexual orientation isn't harmful. Certain techniques that involve physical pain may be harmful, but you're not really painting an accurate picture of the field.

Of course it is harmful. Here is an APA fact sheet both on homosexuality and the lack of efficacy and the dangers of conversion "therapy":

Preamble
In December of 1998, the Board of Trustees issued a position statement that the American Psychiatric Association opposes any psychiatric treatment, such as "reparative" or conversion therapy, which is based upon the assumption that homosexuality per se is a mental disorder or based upon the a priori assumption that a patient should change his/her sexual homosexual orientation (Appendix 1). In doing so, the APA joined many other professional organizations that either oppose or are critical of "reparative" therapies, including the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Medical Association, the American Psychological Association, The American Counseling Association, and the National Association of Social Workers (1).

The following Position Statement expands and elaborates upon the statement issued by the Board of Trustees in order to further address public and professional concerns about therapies designed to change a patient's sexual orientation or sexual identity. It augments rather than replaces the 1998 statement. Position Statement
In the past, defining homosexuality as an illness buttressed society's moral opprobrium of same-sex relationships (2). In the current social climate, claiming homosexuality is a mental disorder stems from efforts to discredit the growing social acceptance of homosexuality as a normal variant of human sexuality. Consequently, the issue of changing sexual orientation has become highly politicized. The integration of gays and lesbians into the mainstream of American society is opposed by those who fear that such an integration is morally wrong and harmful to the social fabric. The political and moral debates surrounding this issue have obscured the scientific data by calling into question the motives and even the character of individuals on both sides of the issue. This document attempts to shed some light on this heated issue.
The validity, efficacy and ethics of clinical attempts to change an individual's sexual orientation have been challenged (3,4,5,6). To date, there are no scientifically rigorous outcome studies to determine either the actual efficacy or harm of "reparative" treatments. There is sparse scientific data about selection criteria, risks versus benefits of the treatment, and long-term outcomes of "reparative" therapies. The literature consists of anecdotal reports of individuals who have claimed to change, people who claim that attempts to change were harmful to them, and others who claimed to have changed and then later recanted those claims (7,8,9).
Even though there are little data about patients, it is still possible to evaluate the theories which rationalize the conduct of "reparative" and conversion therapies. Firstly, they are at odds with the scientific position of the American Psychiatric Association which has maintained, since 1973, that homosexuality per se, is not a mental disorder. The theories of "reparative" therapists define homosexuality as either a developmental arrest, a severe form of psychopathology, or some combination of both (10-15). In recent years, noted practitioners of "reparative" therapy have openly integrated older psychoanalytic theories that pathologize homosexuality with traditional religious beliefs condemning homosexuality (16,17,18).

The earliest scientific criticisms of the early theories and religious beliefs informing "reparative" or conversion therapies came primarily from sexology researchers (19-27). Later, criticisms emerged from psychoanalytic sources as well (28-39). There has also been an increasing body of religious thought arguing against traditional, biblical interpretations that condemn homosexuality and which underlie religious types of "reparative" therapy (40-46).

To be continued...

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

Appendix 1

Psychiatric Treatment and Sexual Orientation
POSITION STATEMENT​

Approved by the Board of Trustees, December 1998
Approved by the Assembly, November 1998​

The Board of Trustees of the American Psychiatric Association removed homosexuality from the DSM in 1973 after reviewing the evidence that it was not a mental disorder. In 1987, ego-dystonic homosexuality was not included in the DSM-III-R after a similar review.

The American Psychiatric Association does not currently have a formal position statement on treatments that attempt to change a persons sexual orientation, also known as reparative or conversion therapy. There is an APA 1997 Fact Sheet on Homosexual and Bisexual Issues which states that there is no published scientific evidence supporting the efficacy of reparative therapy as a treatment to change ones sexual orientation.

The potential risks of reparative therapy are great, including depression, anxiety and self-destructive behavior, since therapist alignment with societal prejudices against homosexuality may reinforce self-hatred already experienced by the patient. Many patients who have undergone reparative therapy relate that they were inaccurately told that homosexuals are lonely, unhappy individuals who never achieve acceptance or satisfaction. The possibility that the person might achieve happiness and satisfying interpersonal relationships as a gay man or lesbian is not presented, nor are alternative approaches to dealing the effects of societal stigmatization discussed. The APA recognizes that in the course of ongoing psychiatric treatment there may be appropriate clinical indications for attempting to change sexual behaviors.

Several major professional organizations including the American Psychological Association, the National Association of Social Workers and the American Academy of Pediatrics have all made statements against reparative therapy because of concerns for the harm caused to patients. The American Psychiatric Association has already taken clear stands against discrimination, prejudice and unethical treatment on a variety of issues including discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.

Therefore, the American Psychiatric Association opposes any psychiatric treatment, such as reparative or conversion therapy which is based upon the assumption that homosexuality per se is a mental disorder or based upon the a priori assumption that the patient should change his/her sexual homosexual orientation.


200001

No evidence. Unethical. Non-supported. Opposes research.

It is also unethical in the general practice of treating patients.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

I voted yes; however, I would be very worried about how such laws would be interpreted and would want a very strict definition attached to any bill. I’d vote yes because there are many adults & children who report "conversion therapy" as traumatic with zero to little benefit; there is clear motive for it to still be practiced, and I have not seen any credible evidence showing it “works” in which case we might consider strict regulation instead of a ban, and I mention regulation as although I personally see little difference if myself or one of my family was homosexual; that is far from true for everyone. I also would add I think homosexuality is a “category of behaviour”(demographic) that has and does get targeted for violence and needs to have laws protective in nature, I mention this as strongly believe in as few laws as is reasonable.

My concerns are exactly what I hint at when I talk about regulation over a ban. There are homosexual children who are not comfortable to the point of suicide as they are and who do not respond to just being told its alright to homosexual. Any person has the right to and help with an attempt to change their psychology for the better [feeling good in themselves; changing a behaviour/attraction/trait/ect.) even if goes against a strong norm, which in this case I am referring to the growing social positivity to homosexuality as a minority culture within our own. I worry for kids which by such a law would be forced into programs and treatments which ignore their chosen issue of concern and the noted mental health declines that have been seen following this approach including suicide. And before, people talk about religiosity; you’d be shock at how traumatic removal of someone from their values norms can be and how common these feelings are even among those in very liberal secular social circles.

I only wish I had more faith in our law makers because honestly a policy promise of this by someone would likely ring more red flags than supportive enthusiasm despite it being very important and being something which is actively hurting children :-|

As a practicing psychotherapist who specializes in teenagers and who works a lot with LGBT teens, the ban really applies to children being forced into conversion "therapy" by their parents when THEY do not wish to be in that kind of "treatment". Since homosexuality is no a disorder, there is no ethical treatment in which to "treat" it. Further, conversion "therapy" has been shown to be harmful, causing an increase in depression and suicidality in the majority of patients who participate, and other issues for others. If a client comes into my office saying that they are unhappy with being gay... WHICH HAS HAPPENED WITHIN THE PAST 2 YEARS... I will explore their depression and self-hatred feelings. I would do the same if someone was heterosexual and wanted to be gay. In these cases, the depression is the issue. Their feelings around their sexuality is the trigger, but ultimately irrelevant. It would be like someone coming in and telling me that they were depressed because they were diabetic (which has also happened). IN treating depression and suicidality in these cases, one looks for ways to help the individual to understand themselves better and why they dislike aspects of who they are. The depression is the psychological disorder, not the sexual orientation.

 

[holbritter]

Great post, holbritter.

Speaking from my own personal experience, rejection can be very hard to deal with. At school, I did get picked on for it (so did my girlfriend), but nowhere near as much as some of the gay guys did. When it comes to my family, unlike my girlfriend's family (who are very nice, accepting people), my parents (more specifically my mother) didn't have the most loving of reactions to my coming out. Neither did it go over well with quite a few of my other family members (the typical "You're not gay!" type of responses). The only one who really didn't give a **** about me being gay was my sister. In short, that wasn't a very pleasant time in my life. At times I hated myself for being gay. Sometimes I wished I could change it. But not anymore. Even with experiencing all that hurt and rejection, I've learned to stand up for myself, and be confident in who I am. Let's just say I've gotten into a fair number of shouting matches with my mother over this. But it's gotten better. While my mother still has a hard time with it, she's becoming more accepting of it, little by little. My dad just doesn't care if I'm gay or not anymore, which is great.

Apologies for getting a bit personal with this. But yeah, I've got absolutely nothing to be ashamed of. Nobody should feel ashamed about who they are.

Nonsense! Courage and strength should never be apologized for!

 

[holbritter]

That is a very common belief, however if you get involved with children in crisis you will unfortunately find they come in many shades and all have distinct histories. Not to underplay trauma or certain types of parenting as common factors.

I highly encourage we teach and build the type of environments you refer; however, every child will experience “triggering figures” who beliefs and actions are challenging and there is no way to stop that and limit way to prepare them. As loving parents and humans we should certainly look to reduce hostile environments and promote emotional safety; however, children will still come into crisis and we need to deal with that as they present.
Now since this is a political forum, should we open the real question being skirted here: do loving evangelical Christian parents with a gay child commit abuse when their values and beliefs say that homosexuality is a sin?

I think it’s wonderful you gotten there and hope you continue to share your experience with young people. Children need role models as well as exposure to different types of childhood experience.
I for one greatly appreciate you sharing as it is personal for you! And I agree “feeling ashamed of oneself” is exactly the real disorder that needs to be treated in these situations.

But think back to those times when you did feel that way and supposing circumstances and personality factors were different and you were in a full depression – actively seeking to end your life. You get assigned help and they tell you: "you’re alight, it all the negative talk about gays" but this time you have low agreeableness and “just don’t believe them” … “is there anyway I can do to change this?” You pled…. And their only answer is “No, you’re born the way you’re born”…

It doesn’t end well. As I said “conversation therapy” by any measure I have read is more harmful than helpful; however, when you make a law banning that and don’t clearly define where it goes wrong - you open the interpretation to stop therapy which in certain cases may be necessary to save lives.

I don't agree, but I get what you're saying. There is other therapy available. If any therapist or psychologist tried to help my child by saying those statements, they need their license taken from them.

 

[Andalublue]

Oops... accidentally voted no. For me, it's a resounding yes.

Phew! I saw you'd voted 'no' and thought you'd had a brain queef.

 

[Andalublue]

Great post, holbritter.

Speaking from my own personal experience, rejection can be very hard to deal with. At school, I did get picked on for it (so did my girlfriend), but nowhere near as much as some of the gay guys did. When it comes to my family, unlike my girlfriend's family (who are very nice, accepting people), my parents (more specifically my mother) didn't have the most loving of reactions to my coming out. Neither did it go over well with quite a few of my other family members (the typical "You're not gay!" type of responses). The only one who really didn't give a **** about me being gay was my sister. In short, that wasn't a very pleasant time in my life. At times I hated myself for being gay. Sometimes I wished I could change it. But not anymore. Even with experiencing all that hurt and rejection, I've learned to stand up for myself, and be confident in who I am. Let's just say I've gotten into a fair number of shouting matches with my mother over this. But it's gotten better. While my mother still has a hard time with it, she's becoming more accepting of it, little by little. My dad just doesn't care if I'm gay or not anymore, which is great.

Apologies for getting a bit personal with this. But yeah, I've got absolutely nothing to be ashamed of. Nobody should feel ashamed about who they are.

I can absolutely second your thoughts in this post.

I came out to my mother at 19, a year after leaving for college. My mum was a member of a very Calvinistic evangelical church who made my life a bit of a misery. It made hers even worse since she was a genuine believer, but not the kind of person to reject her children on the say-so of a pastor. We worked through a lot of stuff together, and on some things we remained divided. Fortunately, my brother and sisters all demonstrated the 'so what? We've always known' school of reactions.

Several members of my mother's church, pastor included, tried to pressure her into pressuring me to 'get help', by which I inferred they meant conversion therapy or psychiatric treatment to 'cure' me. To her enduring credit and my everlasting love and respect, she did nothing of the kind and eventually she learned to live with the theological issues and embrace me for who I am, including boyfriends of varying degrees of suitability.

Most LGBT people will have experienced degrees of pressure from family and friends. What's important is that support is available and that meddling from quacks and bigots not be confused with real help.

 

[Conaeolos]

As a practicing psychotherapist who specializes in teenagers and who works a lot with LGBT teens, the ban really applies to children being forced into conversion "therapy" by their parents when THEY do not wish to be in that kind of "treatment". Since homosexuality is no a disorder, there is no ethical treatment in which to "treat" it. Further, conversion "therapy" has been shown to be harmful, causing an increase in depression and suicidality in the majority of patients who participate, and other issues for others. If a client comes into my office saying that they are unhappy with being gay... WHICH HAS HAPPENED WITHIN THE PAST 2 YEARS... I will explore their depression and self-hatred feelings. I would do the same if someone was heterosexual and wanted to be gay. In these cases, the depression is the issue. Their feelings around their sexuality is the trigger, but ultimately irrelevant. It would be like someone coming in and telling me that they were depressed because they were diabetic (which has also happened). IN treating depression and suicidality in these cases, one looks for ways to help the individual to understand themselves better and why they dislike aspects of who they are. The depression is the psychological disorder, not the sexual orientation.

I don’t disagree with a single thing you said; however, as a therapist, do you not agree that although the youth’s trigger is founded with the stigma which will be worked past, the majority of the negative reinforcement of said stigma is internal and it doesn't pass quickly? You said that your treatment methodology is “help the individual to understand themselves better” and I agree, that is standard ethical procedure and that does not require behavioral modification; however, are you honestly telling me you do not have clients that do not respond to these attempts and who commit or attempt suicide because no one is giving them the tools they are requesting?

Again, my worry on any ban is not it being used to protect LGBT children or teens from camps or treatment programs designed to teach them to suppress their homosexuality. My concerns are with how laws designed to help people often are written poorly and get interpreted in broader ways. I also worry about good parents losing their children over their beliefs but that is a much harder question.

If a professional like yourself decided to go down a treatment path to help “change behaviors” as part of larger therapy program to treat the depression. Are you committing professional misconduct? I would say no not at all, some here I feel would say yes – but I feel you are doing what is in the best interest of your patient; however, if a law were broadly defined such a treatment methodology would either be unethical or unlawful according to how this was laid out.

Now when I gave my hypothetical example of what I see as the circumstance of my concern, holbritter pointed out a sentiment you may share which is there are many other therapies and that if a client is hearing that the only answer is “No, you’re born the way you’re born” it is a sign of a bad therapist/professional not a need to take a behavioral change approach. And she may be right. As you know professionals work hard to try not project such statements on any situation and let the client work it out their own process.

I know there are tools that can control and change sexual behavior: homosexual or heterosexual. If, I had the same tools for that person in your explanation for their diabetes I’d want them on the table too. Depression is not a easy thing to treat especially in children, but when it comes to LGBT we have a big history of abuse so things do get complicated and good intention to help can start making their own problems.

 

[Middleground]

Phew! I saw you'd voted 'no' and thought you'd had a brain queef.

No worries, I didn't have a lobotomy.:2razz:

 

[Moderate Right]

There are currently 9 states which ban gay conversion therapy on minors as of 6/9/17. There are also 19 other cities including DC banning conversion therapy.
View attachment 67218641

There are also pending bills in Florida, Hawaii, Iowa, Kansas, Maine, Massachusetts, Minnesota, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Texas, Washington, West Virginia and Wisconsin this year.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._jurisdictions_banning_conversion_therapy_for_minors

So you're saying that government should interfere in the relationship between parents and their minor children?

 

[Andalublue]

So you're saying that government should interfere in the relationship between parents and their minor children?

That's kinda the basis for all child abuse legislation, no?

 

[Moderate Right]

That's kinda the basis for all child abuse legislation, no?

So you are equating conversion therapy with abuse?

 

[Peter King]

So you are equating conversion therapy with abuse?

well, for children it is pretty much equal to abuse, especially if they are forced to undergo it.

 

[BillRM]

It's not a treatment.

Not in your opinion surely however adults should be allow to used their own judgement not your or the gay lobby.

 

[Jredbaron96]

So you are equating conversion therapy with abuse?

There's pretty substantial evidence to show that conversion therapy can be pretty damaging to the people that are forced to undergo it.

 

[Manc Skipper]

Not in your opinion surely however adults should be allow to used their own judgement not your or the gay lobby.

It's quackery. Not one reputable branch of medicine or psychiatry supports it.

 

[Moderate Right]

There's pretty substantial evidence to show that conversion therapy can be pretty damaging to the people that are forced to undergo it.

And being a gay minor isn't damaging at all?

 

[instagramsci]

And being a gay minor isn't damaging at all?

It is but it's a result of a society hostile to being gay. Not fault on the part of the minor

 

[Northern Light]

I know there are tools that can control and change sexual behavior: homosexual or heterosexual. If, I had the same tools for that person in your explanation for their diabetes I’d want them on the table too. Depression is not a easy thing to treat especially in children, but when it comes to LGBT we have a big history of abuse so things do get complicated and good intention to help can start making their own problems.

I already responded to you but you ignored my post.

Changing behavior is irrelevant to sexual orientation. There are people who are truly homosexual but self-suppressing for as long as possible, also known as being in the closet. Some people even take on opposite sex partners, have children, all in an attempt to try to be normal. It doesn't change their core orientation. Being homosexuality (identity) is not the same as acting on homosexuality (behavior). The behavior can change but the identity never does.

What you're suggesting is preserving an avenue of suppression within the medical community, which is not what psychotherapy is supposed to do in this case. Whether or not someone acts on their sexuality, accepting themselves for who they really are is part of being a healthy, well-adjusted individual. The opposite leads to dysfunction, depression, and suicidal tendencies.

Psychotherapy is research based, not ideology based. Asking why tools for suppression are not kept as a relevant option for youth struggling with being homosexual in a homophobic world only betrays your own agenda. We don't teach people to suppress because it leads to mental health problems. Whether or not they act on their identity is their own choice, but accepting their identity is 100% in line with well-being.

The only reason to question such an approach would be that you are splitting hairs in order to justify avenues for conversion therapy and its offshoots. There's no justifiable reason for a therapist to tell a youth who is struggling with their sexual identity to hide from themselves or pretend they're someone they're not. None.

 

[AlbqOwl]

So adults should not be allow to seek such treatments?

This is my question.

I know gay people who are wonderful people but who admit they would not wish being gay on anybody they loved or liked. They did not choose to be gay, but accept that as they way they were born just as are those with color blindness or alopacia or type I diabetes or allergies etc. That such people are 'normal' and a certain number of people will be subject to the condition and there is no shame whatsoever in it, it still occurs that the condition is an anomaly to the norm. In fact many medical conditions can be considered more 'normal' than being gay because there is a gene pool for their illness while there is no 'gay gene' that has yet been conclusively identified.

So if a scientific 'cure' for the condition was available, should a gay person wants to be straight not be allowed to try? Do (the generic)you feel the same about people who want to transgender?

I have no problem at all with gay people except those that get in my face about it, but that doesn't come from them being gay. It comes from them being obnoxious jerks.

So I don't know how to answer the poll. Religious quackery is always a problem. But I don't want to rule out remedies just because it could add an uncomfortable dynamic to the situation.

 

[CLAX1911]

So you're saying that government should interfere in the relationship between parents and their minor children?

No.

If you need a license to practice psychotherapy that is a threshold for credibility based on a minimum standard. If a given therapeutic practice further destabilizes a patient's psyche it must be condemned.

If the practice of converting homosexuals to heterosexuals was not harmful than it's the duty of the people wishing to offer that therapy to present first that it does no harm.

If they want to call it faith healing that's fine. You just can't market snake oil as legitimate medicine.