School dress code and free speech.

[Bodi]

They decided to work there, they're not forced to stay, and they're getting paid.

So what? They are kids... I won't let my daughters dress in certain clothes. They have no say in the matter,

 

[d0gbreath]

I remember the case. Like your HS mates ours were suing over the dress code as well - hair length was the issue. Boys couldn't have hair over the collar.

Hair length for boys.

That was a really big part of abolishing the dress code for many male students. The first day of school, our beloved Mr' Farley (VP and head of demonetization) would walk along and point to the boys who hadn't done anything about their summer locks. If he summoned you forward, you had to leave, and not come back until you had a regulation haircut. I wasn't among them. My military father wouldn't let me come home without a haircut.

I got to grow mine longer eventually, so I could look like the other guys.

My best friends Dad used to call me Sally-Sue. He was teasing, I think.

 

[d0gbreath]

Society changes... *shrugs*

I look at how kids dressed back then and think, "damn, look at how nice they all look, girls with nice skirts, boys with tucked in button down shrits!?!?"

Not like that anymore... hoodies, big jackets, low hanging pants, etc. My generation, high school '86-90 was the last to dress acceptable. A few years later the gang culture baggy pants falling off your ass style started, kids started talking back, parents started backing their bratty kids,e tc.



I pretend to be a Kiwi!

I remember when my Son was eleven. He couldn't run that fast because he had to hold up his pants with one hand.

lol, ah Law.

 

[jaeger19]

What luck!!! Hitler stopped by to pose with his Gestapo. Wow, and we were just talking about the fascist uniform. Amazing timing...

View attachment 67203514

Debating you IS senseless because you will fail to see that the argument of uniforms is not about creating little KKK members it us about controlling some behaviours in a mandated environment where learning is the focus and not what you wear, not to mention gang stuff... but you go off with your Orwellian Maoist Nightmare all you like. :lol:




Oy veh! :roll:

Debating you is senseless because you fail to see the argument of uniforms is about fostering a LEARNING environment where children are free to learn how to excel, be individuals and to think on their own...

And there is the irony... you call my post an "Orwellian maoist nightmare"...

Well gee there. I managed to be educated without having to wear a uniform in school.. and so did millions of other children... but apparently.. when violent crime is the lowest in decades, you can't control the class room enough to deal with a couple of kids that might wear inappropriate clothes...oh and have to worry " about the gang stuff"..

So instead.. everyone has to conform.

"sorry children.. but someone might abuse their freedom and we can't handle that.. so that means you all have to lose your freedom..."

not to mention trying to teach children to accept others differences and respect their individuality...

No wonder the school systems are struggling.

 

[jaeger19]

I thought you were a guy but you seem fixated on girl stuff so my apologies...

Really? Really that's your response..?

and you claim to be an educator...? :shock::shock:

 

[Bodi]

Debating you is senseless because you fail to see the argument of uniforms is about fostering a LEARNING environment where children are free to learn how to excel, be individuals and to think on their own...

And there is the irony... you call my post an "Orwellian maoist nightmare"...

Well gee there. I managed to be educated without having to wear a uniform in school.. and so did millions of other children... but apparently.. when violent crime is the lowest in decades, you can't control the class room enough to deal with a couple of kids that might wear inappropriate clothes...oh and have to worry " about the gang stuff"..

So instead.. everyone has to conform.

"sorry children.. but someone might abuse their freedom and we can't handle that.. so that means you all have to lose your freedom..."

not to mention trying to teach children to accept others differences and respect their individuality...

No wonder the school systems are struggling.

Millions of students wer uniforms and are educated quite nicely... and wearing a uniform is not that big of a deal and actually something that many students prefer.

Go ahead and be angry though with all your "oh, we conform!!" whining though and please feel free to again repeat back to me what I first say to you. Very educated, I might add.

 

[Bodi]

Really? Really that's your response..?

and you claim to be an educator...? :shock::shock:

Yeah... and teacher of the year for my district once too. My problem is that I am accepting, patient, witty and intelligent... what is your problem?

Not once have I seen nor heard an ex-uniform wearing student complaing about how the uniform indoctrinated them into conformity or in any way impacted their adult lives... in fact, we have amazing artists and other creative people that are not hindered by those dreadful uniforms either.

Will you please remain angry and hostile though? Great role modelling for non-uniforms too...

 

[Henrin]

So what? They are kids... I won't let my daughters dress in certain clothes. They have no say in the matter,

So they decided on their own free will to work there. They made a conscious choice to go there looking for work and then made another conscious decision to agree to wear the uniform. Children didn't make a conscious choice to go to this or that school nor can they decide to not go to a school because they have uniforms. Why are you comparing voluntary choices made by teenagers/adults with choices imposed on students?

 

[jaeger19]

Sounds like you went to a ****ty school because nobody makes fun of anybody here... or in any of the schools I taught at. I work as a dean and middle managment and have many discussions with parents and students about it. If you had more experience, or any actually as an educator, it would help make you look less foolish.

Yeah.. you claim that "nobody makes fun of anybody here.. or in any schools I taught at"

Some facts to ruminate on...

Been Bullied

28% of U.S. students in grades 6–12 experienced bullying.2

20% of U.S. students in grades 9–12 experienced bullying.15
Bullied Others

Approximately 30% of young people admit to bullying others in surveys.3
Seen Bullying

70.6% of young people say they have seen bullying in their schools.3

70.4% of school staff have seen bullying. 62% witnessed bullying two or more times in the last month and 41% witness bullying once a week or more.3

When bystanders intervene, bullying stops within 10 seconds 57% of the time.16
Been Cyberbullied

9% of students in grades 6–12 experienced cyberbullying.2

15% of high school students (grades 9–12) were electronically bullied in the past year.16

However, 55.2% of LGBT students experienced cyberbullying.17
How Often Bullied

In one large study, about 49% of children in grades 4–12 reported being bullied by other students at school at least once during the past month, whereas 30.8% reported bullying others during that time.

Defining "frequent" involvement in bullying as occurring two or more times within the past month, 40.6% of students reported some type of frequent involvement in bullying, with 23.2% being the youth frequently bullied, 8.0% being the youth who frequently bullied others, and 9.4% playing both roles frequently.3

According to one large study, the following percentages of middle schools students had experienced these various types of bullying: name calling (44.2 %); teasing (43.3 %); spreading rumors or lies (36.3%); pushing or shoving (32.4%); hitting, slapping, or kicking (29.2%); leaving out (28.5%); threatening (27.4%); stealing belongings (27.3%); sexual comments or gestures (23.7%); e-mail or blogging (9.9%).3

National Center for Education Statistics and Bureau of Justice Statistics, School Crime Supplement , 2011.

Bradshaw, C.P., Sawyer, A.L., & O’Brennan, L.M. (2007). Bullying and peer victimization at school: Perceptual differences between students and school staff. School Psychology Review, 36(3), 361-382.

Hawkins, D. L., Pepler, D., and Craig, W. M. (2001). Peer interventions in playground bullying. Social Development, 10, 512-527.

17 Kosciw, J. G., Greytak, E. A., Bartkiewicz, M. J., Boesen, M. J., & Palmer, N. A. (2012). The 2011 National School Climate Survey: The experiences of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender youth in our nation’s schools. New York: GLSEN.





By the way... I was an educator... in undergraduate education, graduate education and still am a clinical instructor and resident supervisor.

My parents were teachers in the NY school system.. My aunts and uncles were educators.. and my wife worked in the school system as well.

I don't think I am the one looking foolish here... especially after you just stated "no one makes fun of anyone here"...

Wait.. are there unicorns and centaurs in your school as well?

 

[jaeger19]

No. None of us were talking about that. You introduced that Straw Man fallacy all on your own as some type of winning point when all it is is fallicious.

Yeah.. wrong.. I responded to a poster that brought up the issue of competition among girls.. try to keep up.

 

[Bodi]

So they decided on their own free will to work there. They made a conscious choice to go there looking for work and then made another conscious decision to agree to wear the uniform. Children didn't make a conscious choice to go to this or that school nor can they decide to not go to a school because they have uniforms. Why are you comparing voluntary choices made by teenagers/adults with choices imposed on students?

I was not being serious... that is why. I was making a sarcastic reply to his stupid argument.

 

[jaeger19]

It is good... ...low income workers that follow orders well. That is what we educators plan for our new fascist society...

You know.. I don;t think its your plan.. but you may not be realizing just how close to the truth you are.

 

[jaeger19]

Millions of students wer uniforms and are educated quite nicely... and wearing a uniform is not that big of a deal and actually something that many students prefer.

Go ahead and be angry though with all your "oh, we conform!!" whining though and please feel free to again repeat back to me what I first say to you. Very educated, I might add.

Yeah.. look at your posts and decide who is "angry"...

You might want to review your post about "thinking you were a guy but...".. ?

Millions of students were educated WITHOUT uniforms quite nicely.. and also learned to be individuals and respect other peoples individuality.. they also learned to think for themselves and to value their freedom..

And now we have a society that's willing to throw freedom to the wind for the illusion of safety.. from Gitmo, to banning refugees from sanctuary, to having fights about sharia law...

 

[jaeger19]

Yeah... and teacher of the year for my district once too. My problem is that I am accepting, patient, witty and intelligent... what is your problem?

Not once have I seen nor heard an ex-uniform wearing student complaing about how the uniform indoctrinated them into conformity or in any way impacted their adult lives... in fact, we have amazing artists and other creative people that are not hindered by those dreadful uniforms either.

Will you please remain angry and hostile though? Great role modelling for non-uniforms too...

Angry and hostile?

You may want to review your posts just a bit more.......

 

[Bodi]

Yeah.. you claim that "nobody makes fun of anybody here.. or in any schools I taught at"

Some facts to ruminate on...




National Center for Education Statistics and Bureau of Justice Statistics, School Crime Supplement , 2011.

Bradshaw, C.P., Sawyer, A.L., & O’Brennan, L.M. (2007). Bullying and peer victimization at school: Perceptual differences between students and school staff. School Psychology Review, 36(3), 361-382.

Hawkins, D. L., Pepler, D., and Craig, W. M. (2001). Peer interventions in playground bullying. Social Development, 10, 512-527.

17 Kosciw, J. G., Greytak, E. A., Bartkiewicz, M. J., Boesen, M. J., & Palmer, N. A. (2012). The 2011 National School Climate Survey: The experiences of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender youth in our nation’s schools. New York: GLSEN.





By the way... I was an educator... in undergraduate education, graduate education and still am a clinical instructor and resident supervisor.

My parents were teachers in the NY school system.. My aunts and uncles were educators.. and my wife worked in the school system as well.

I don't think I am the one looking foolish here... especially after you just stated "no one makes fun of anyone here"...

Wait.. are there unicorns and centaurs in your school as well?

Now the stupid starts... and YOU claim to be an educator? You can't even read in context.

"no one makes fun of anyone here" regarding the topic we are discussing which is making fun of anyone here about wearing a uniform.

Kids bullied each other a lot about regular clothing. I made that point repeatedly. I am sure that once or twice over the last decade somebody bullied a kid about poor uniform maintainence... holes in their shirt or something.

I have taught in two different states CA and OR and in two different countries, USA and NZ. Also, from low inner city gang infested schools to posh private schools costing 16K a year per student. Uniforms, dress codes and non-dress codes. I have a pretty firm grasp on the argument at hand. You argue from an Appeal to Emotion. As if wearing a uniform assaults the identity of a humans soul. What a crock of ****. :lol:

Yeah.. wrong.. I responded to a poster that brought up the issue of competition among girls.. try to keep up.

OK. I missed that and was wrong.

 

[Mr Person]

I attended a public HS in the 1960s and it was an every day occurrence where someone's clothing choices did cause everything from distraction to disruption. Now, try to tell us the mini skirt did not distract boys of our generation, that should be good for a belly laugh.

Unless you required girls to wear a Burka, I'm fairly certain that anything they wore would be a distraction to teenaged boys, and vice versa. In fact, if they had to wear burkas, their eyebrows would be a distraction.


There's a reason that "showing too much ankle" used to be considered improper, over here.

 

[Mr Person]

gang related colors/styles and drug related shirts, logo's or print alone caused tons of problems, distractions, behaviour issues, fights, etc.

Belly shirts, short shorts, low cleavage showing tops, tattoos, goth clothing, etc caused tons more...

Well, I suspect it is the gang membership that caused gang related colors to be a 'distraction'. Similarly, I suspect it is contemporaneous drug usage that caused "drug shirts" to be a distraction.


If you aren't in a gang, why would you even know that someone is wearing gang colors? Ditto drug comments.

The clothing doesn't cause an issue unless the related, and actual problem, is already an issue. And clothing guidelines could only possibly effect in-school issues while in school. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that the better policy would be to allow clothing to trigger said issues, then let the relevant authorities know who is causing such triggered issues. Requiring uniforms so as not to see the triggered issue only hides the triggered issue from persons who could alert said authorities. In other words, school uniforms don't damage gangs; they merely impose a curfew on colors, if you will.

 

[Bodi]

You know.. I don;t think its your plan.. but you may not be realizing just how close to the truth you are.

Yeah, I am a pretty unaware guy. I flounder a lot. Not really sure how what I do affects issues either... you are on it though.

Yeah.. look at your posts and decide who is "angry"...

You might want to review your post about "thinking you were a guy but...".. ?

How does makinga sarcastic comment about what you were posting indicate I am angry?

Millions of students were educated WITHOUT uniforms quite nicely.. and also learned to be individuals and respect other peoples individuality.. they also learned to think for themselves and to value their freedom..

You fail to show why learning with a uniform stifles individuality, thinking for themselves and to value their freedom? Doing what your parents tell you is far more restrictive than wearing a uniform but you get all angry about this... all good.

And now we have a society that's willing to throw freedom to the wind for the illusion of safety.. from Gitmo, to banning refugees from sa

Nothing wrong with banning potential terrorists that we can't vet. Gitmo was a problem though...

 

[Bodi]

Angry and hostile?

You may want to review your posts just a bit more.......

You insulted me first... I can only go off of what you write. *shrugs*

 

[Bodi]

Well, I suspect it is the gang membership that caused gang related colors to be a 'distraction'. Similarly, I suspect it is contemporaneous drug usage that caused "drug shirts" to be a distraction.


If you aren't in a gang, why would you even know that someone is wearing gang colors? Ditto drug comments.

The clothing doesn't cause an issue unless the related, and actual problem, is already an issue. And clothing guidelines could only possibly effect in-school issues while in school. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that the better policy would be to allow clothing to trigger said issues, then let the relevant authorities know who is causing such triggered issues. Requiring uniforms so as not to see the triggered issue only hides the triggered issue from persons who could alert said authorities. In other words, school uniforms don't damage gangs; they merely impose a curfew on colors, if you will.

Yeah, I worked at a school that let the clothing trigger an issue and we had police at the school repeatedly and teh two SWAT teams were called in to stop gang on gang violence once. I don't really care for that method. Fights occured daily. Knives pulled. Desks thrown. Teachers threatened. Not such a good policy.

 

[Mr Person]

Yeah, I worked at a school that let the clothing trigger an issue and we had police at the school repeatedly and teh two SWAT teams were called in to stop gang on gang violence once. I don't really care for that method. Fights occured daily. Knives pulled. Desks thrown. Teachers threatened. Not such a good policy.

It sounds like my experience is rather different because I didn't live in one of the borderline war zones otherwise known as "inner city American life"....

Perhaps uniforms make sense for such areas, if only for safety of school staff. Definitely not across the board though.

 

[Bodi]

It sounds like my experience is rather different because I didn't live in one of the borderline war zones otherwise known as "inner city American life"....

Perhaps uniforms make sense for such areas, if only for safety of school staff. Definitely not across the board though.

I am not sure that uniforms need to be a nationwide policy but I am also certain that it would not hurt if it was... works in many other democratic freedom loving countries.

 

[clownboy]

Unless you required girls to wear a Burka, I'm fairly certain that anything they wore would be a distraction to teenaged boys, and vice versa. In fact, if they had to wear burkas, their eyebrows would be a distraction.


There's a reason that "showing too much ankle" used to be considered improper, over here.

Yes, I get that. But in the 60s the clothing decorum wasn't that restrictive. And where boys still looked and imagined, after the dress code was abolished they didn't really need much of an imagination, it was on full display. That's another benefit of uniforms. If they want to strut their stuff, let them do it on their own time, on their own dime.

But as you've been reminded, there are many benefits to school uniform wear.

 

[clownboy]

I am not sure that uniforms need to be a nationwide policy but I am also certain that it would not hurt if it was... works in many other democratic freedom loving countries.

Indeed, and they can't be. Our schools are not federal.

 

[Bodi]

Indeed, and they can't be. Our schools are not federal.

I meant if every state chooses to go that route...