School dress code and free speech.

[Bodi]

Okay.

Fair enough.

So, in your opinion, in what way did the introduction of uniforms improve things for the kids?

I see that uniforms ease social pressures on students... Look, it is not a "school is magic for kids in uniforms and schools without uniforms are a disaster" it is just that things flow a in a smoother fashion (pun intended) with uniforms.

I guess as someone who has actual living experience with uniformed schooling, as opposed to the view of an outsider (even a teacher) looking in and giving his perceptions of what he thinks the benefits of uniforming kids might be, I fail to see any real benefit from it.

Fair enough...

 

[soot]

I see that uniforms ease social pressures on students... Look, it is not a "school is magic for kids in uniforms and schools without uniforms are a disaster" it is just that things flow a in a smoother fashion (pun intended) with uniforms.

Yeah, that's what I was asking, something like that, and it seems legit.

As I said, I didn't ultimately find that aspect of it to be that beneficial but as I also said I remember at the time that it was of some value to me.

And I also realize that my experience is just my experience.

Though I don't believe it was of any great value to me someone else might have found uniforms tremendously beneficial.

Just wanted to know the reasons why you were saying what you're saying, so, thanks.

 

[nota bene]

So we want to encourage our kids to be simpletons?

So you think that simplifying makes one a simpleton? What's wrong with you?

 

[nota bene]

I am not sure that studies have been done but as a teacher who has taught in schools with uniforms and without uniforms and after talking to teachers, parents and students that is the conclusion that has been reached by pretty much everybody that I have talked to about it...

I'm aware of at least one study done (several years ago now) on the effects on uniforms on behavior and grades in a public high school.

I attended both public and private schools, and uniforms were great. I was able to spend my money (my parents made me earn every cent) on weekend/special occasion clothes. Uniforms plus single-sex classes was an even better deal (no makeup, lazy leg-shaving, etc.)

As a parent, uniforms were also great. No worries about what the kids would wear in the morning and easier laundry too, plus a steady supply of nice hand-me-downs available at the school at the beginning of every year.

 

[SMTA]

I don't give a mouse donkey?

Rat's Ass.

 

[soot]

So you think that simplifying makes one a simpleton? What's wrong with you?

I made the comment tongue in cheek so, no, (duhhh) I don't really think that simplifying things makes one a simpleton.

But I do think that school plays a vital role in socialization and acculturation and that uniforms, for the very same reasons that people consider uniforms to be of value, deprive kids of opportunities to learn to adjust and fit in to mixed groups.

 

[joG]

There is a thread in breaking news about an 8th grader suspended for wearing a t-shirt to school which was deemed as a violation to what can reasonably be considered a vague dress code. This is not about that, but rather in general about dress coded in schools, or more precisely in public schools.
There were arguments made that freedom of expression should trump dress codes. If that is so, should it be totally without restrictions or with some restrictions.
Let me just throw this out there: In NYC's Tine Square, there are "performers" who wear nothing but body paint and under First Amendment rules they are free do do so, although now NYC is trying to implement some regulation. So what would happen if someone showed up to school with such an expression?

Personally, I think a school uniform has a lot to say for it. It avoids class distinction, is cheap and saves time dressing in the morning. It is sort of like the old blue suit at Citi Bank.

 

[JasperL]

Personally, I think a school uniform has a lot to say for it. It avoids class distinction, is cheap and saves time dressing in the morning. It is sort of like the old blue suit at Citi Bank.

I agree. Spent part of my schooling wearing uniforms and after the initial adjustment of about a week, loved it. I could wear khaki, blue or black/gray pants, and three colors of shirts. Never, ever thought about clothes, "back to school shopping" took a half hour fitting pants and buying a few shirts in the right size, etc. I suspect it was even better for the girls.

And I will admit it was almost as easy for guys back in the old days in accounting. I had basically three suits for years - gray, blue, and another darker gray.... 6 or 8 white shirts, 2 blue to be different, black shoes, black belt.

 

[prometeus]

Personally, I think a school uniform has a lot to say for it. It avoids class distinction, is cheap and saves time dressing in the morning. It is sort of like the old blue suit at Citi Bank.

I am perfectly fine with uniforms, no I advocate for them. I am against poorly formulated rules that leave too much for interpretation and give too much power to people who fail to use it with restraint.

 

[LaylaWindu]

When has there been absolute free speech in school? Free speech does not apply in school, it is restricted, as it should be and the school makes the rules. On a side note the school can't do anything it wants but it most certainly can limit speech and or have a dress code.

 

[Bodi]

Rat's Ass.

Does the ass belong to the rat because that is written as a possessive...

 

[SMTA]

Does the ass belong to the rat because that is written as a possessive...

It does!

I believe that the only one who gives a rat's ass about the rat's ass is the rat.

 

[NotreDame]

Children are a "protected class" in the USA. That means their rights can be restricted for their own protection, and the protection of other children.

Showing up nude in a grade school, even in "body paint," would subject the student(s) to discipline. If they were adults, it might lead to criminal charges. That answers the question you posed.

What exactly do you mean by the phrase "protected class?" Sounds rather dangerously authoritarian to suggest children's "rights can be restricted for their own protection." Rights exist to protect the people, including the children, from the government, and the notion of limiting the rights of the people, children included, to protect them is dangerous. The government, understanding what is needed for your own protection, has determined X, Y, and Z rights are to be limited. No thanks.

Rather, the better approach is to consider limitations based on other factors, such as the setting, environment, content of speech, other students' rights, etcetera.

 

[American]

Okay.

Fair enough.

So, in your opinion, in what way did the introduction of uniforms improve things for the kids?

As to my perspective, I went to a public school (no uniforms) up through third grade.

I was left back in third grade due to a learning disability and was at that time transferred to a Catholic school (uniforms) for my second run at third grade.

Upon graduating from 8th grade I went back to public high school (again, no uniforms).

I didn't really dislike the uniforms at the time I was wearing one, in fact I actually kind of liked them because I was low income kid thrown in to a private school with a bunch of kids who came from money and it was one less thing to "compete" on, if that makes sense.

But when I went to public high school I ran in to a similar dynamic (being among the low income kids) but it really wasn't all that much of an issue.

I guess maybe in my own head I would have liked to have had some of the "designer" and "trendy label" stuff that many of the other kid's families could afford, but I never had any trouble fitting in for a lack of that stuff nor did the other kids make me feel "less than" for want of it.

I got more or less the same kind of grades in high school that I did in elementary/middle school so I didn't see an academic advantage to wearing a uniform.

I'm still in touch, via Facebook and yearly reunions, with the large majority of my graduating 8th grade class (some of whom went on to uniform-wearing private high schools and many who didn't) as well as a great many of my high school friends (some of whom had also attended uniform-wearing private elementary/middle schools and most of whom didn't) and in both respects we seem to be a real mixed bag.

That is to say, there is no clear correlation between uniform wearing and eventual "success" in later life by any reasonable metric.

Folks who went the whole way through without uniforms seem to have grown in to well adjusted, happy, financially successful adults at the same rate as those who went all the way through primary and secondary school in uniform.

I guess as someone who has actual living experience with uniformed schooling, as opposed to the view of an outsider (even a teacher) looking in and giving his perceptions of what he thinks the benefits of uniforming kids might be, I fail to see any real benefit from it.

I paid for uniform schooling for my kids, and there is a benefit to it. It cheaper to buy these clothes. And for the most poor people it gives the highest benefit.

 

[Henrin]

What exactly do you mean by the phrase "protected class?" Sounds rather dangerously authoritarian to suggest children's "rights can be restricted for their own protection." Rights exist to protect the people, including the children, from the government, and the notion of limiting the rights of the people, children included, to protect them is dangerous. The government, understanding what is needed for your own protection, has determined X, Y, and Z rights are to be limited. No thanks.

Well, that's pretty much how children are treated. Remember that seventeen year old girl that was forced to get cancer treatment against her will? I swear the state did an amazing job of upholding her rights there. Oh right, she's a minor so **** what she thinks. :lamo

 

[spangledbanner]

The main reason we have uniforms for public schools in Australia is so poor students do not stand out for having shabby clothing. It is so everyone looks the same.

In my opinion uniforms would help with order in US public schools. And it would help ensure that the poorest students do not stand out for the wrong reasons.

 

[americanwoman]

I wore a uniform up until high school and I loved it. Never had to worry about my clothes, it was great.

 

[cabse5]

So we want to encourage our kids to be simpletons?

They go to public school, don't they?

 

[cabse5]

The main reason we have uniforms for public schools in Australia is so poor students do not stand out for having shabby clothing. It is so everyone looks the same.

In my opinion uniforms would help with order in US public schools. And it would help ensure that the poorest students do not stand out for the wrong reasons.

Nor have to have the outrageous priced piece of clothing to look cool or steal the outrageous...

 

[Patrickt]

Children are a "protected class" in the USA. That means their rights can be restricted for their own protection, and the protection of other children.

Showing up nude in a grade school, even in "body paint," would subject the student(s) to discipline. If they were adults, it might lead to criminal charges. That answers the question you posed.

It has nothing to do with being a "protected class". It has everything to do with the Constitutional guarantee of free speech.

It's short and simple:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.[1]"

There, Congress shall make no law...abridging the freedom of speech. No law. No a business saying you can't wear leather chaps to work with no underwear or jeans is not in violation of the Constitution. They are not making a law. The school, likewise, is not passing a law. Schools can have a dress code, businesses can have a dress code, movie theaters can have a dress code, restaurants can have a dress code and none are violating your Constitutional rights.

Running around or pole dancing naked being an expression of free speech is ludicrous.

As for uniforms, public schools have uniforms where I live now--Mexico. I like it for my kids. It's cheaper and there is less competition in dress. Now, if they would just have uniforms for the teachers.

 

[Ikari]

There is a thread in breaking news about an 8th grader suspended for wearing a t-shirt to school which was deemed as a violation to what can reasonably be considered a vague dress code. This is not about that, but rather in general about dress coded in schools, or more precisely in public schools.
There were arguments made that freedom of expression should trump dress codes. If that is so, should it be totally without restrictions or with some restrictions.
Let me just throw this out there: In NYC's Tine Square, there are "performers" who wear nothing but body paint and under First Amendment rules they are free do do so, although now NYC is trying to implement some regulation. So what would happen if someone showed up to school with such an expression?

Schools are free to make reasonable restrictions to students dress as they see fit.

 

[prometeus]

Schools are free to make reasonable restrictions to students dress as they see fit.

While that is true, making vague and meaningless rules serves no one and nothing but only creates controversy.

 

[Ikari]

While that is true, making vague and meaningless rules serves no one and nothing but only creates controversy.

Maybe, but the school is responsible for the students welfare and safety along with encouraging a proper learning environment, and because of this, reasonable restrictions on what students can wear is allowed. Kids will get over being unable to wear some vulgar t-shirt.

 

[prometeus]

Maybe, but the school is responsible for the students welfare and safety along with encouraging a proper learning environment, and because of this, reasonable restrictions on what students can wear is allowed. Kids will get over being unable to wear some vulgar t-shirt.

Yes and you are still missing the point. In that particular instance the code was vague and confusing, thus only creating the opposite what it was aimed to do.

 

[Ikari]

Yes and you are still missing the point. In that particular instance the code was vague and confusing, thus only creating the opposite what it was aimed to do.

Then it can be clarified. The school still has power to reasonably restrict the type of clothing the student body can wear.