Question for Single Payer fans...

[Bullseye]

It’s a simple question, is there a reason you didn’t answer?

Any reason you don't understand a simple answer?

 

[Casper]

Just install a Medicare system for all and be done with it.

 

[jonny5]

So you think that Doctors and Nurses will just let people die because they want more money? Talk about projection.

Doctors are rich for a reason. The problem is we treat health care like its a public utility, instead of the trade good it is. If we treated it like every other good, there would be more of it.

 

[ludin]

Just install a Medicare system for all and be done with it.

I pay less now per month for my insurance which is better than medicare without the need for a supplement plan.

Medigap Plan Average Monthly Premium3
C $414
D $357
F $321

that is i am assuming for 2 people.
that also doesn't consider that doctor participation in medicare is dropping so that means
less coverage for everyone.

so please tell us again how that is a good thing?

 

[ludin]

Which is why I proposed a market based exchange with a wide variety of policy choices made by the customer instead of bureaucrats. I'm NOT comparing CURRENT costs I'm suggesting that a national menu-driven market would provide more competition and pricing. Also the ready availability of treatment and advanced technologies here does make our system more expensive. When it comes to quality of care there are a damn sight more folks coming here than going overseas.

And single payer provides that HOW?

There is little to no competition in the market place that is because each state dictates the minimum coverage that has to be offered in that state.
You would see more competitive pricing if a person in NJ could by a policy in WY.

They pay based on the % of coverage and then whatever the best possible price from the doctor is that is what is paid.
No questions asked no multiple submits and resubmits etc ...

you would see the expansion and more coverage policies at a cheaper price.

the flip side is that we treat insurance like car insurance.

it only pays when you have a catastrophic incident. IE cancer, broken leg etc ...
your day to day healthcare is paid out via a HSA.

all the government does is a yearly contribution to that HSA plus you get what you put in
and your company.

 

[Casper]

I pay less now per month for my insurance which is better than medicare without the need for a supplement plan.

Medigap Plan Average Monthly Premium3
C $414
D $357
F $321

that is i am assuming for 2 people.
that also doesn't consider that doctor participation in medicare is dropping so that means
less coverage for everyone.

so please tell us again how that is a good thing?

My wife pays 250 for her plan B supplement plan, no other supplements are needed, plus her Medicare payment, you need to take another look at your plans.

 

[MrWonka]

It doesn't. It only seems like it does. Factors cause prices to fluctuate, but aggregate swelling of the money supply that is actually put to circulation that swells ahead of production, over time, is what causes inflation. It's complicated, and you will find temporal exceptions, but over time, this is what causes inflation and the erosion of the purchasing power of the dollar. All other seeming causes are not causes, but cause only fluctuation. Inflation is the increasing trend beyond the fluctuations.

No, that is just patently false. Higher pay contributes to inflation in multiple ways. The first is that it directly causes the price of goods to increase a little bit because business owners have to raise prices to make up for the pay increase. Second, the additional money that people have laying around creates higher demand. It would be like going to an auction and just give everyone there an extra hundred bucks with the stipulation that they had to spend it at the auction. If you don't think that would cause them to bid up the price of each item up for auction you're delusional.

Now overall, population increases contribute far more to inflation than a pay increase would, and tying doctors and nurses salaries to inflation would be a small drop in the bucket in terms of increasing inflation, but it does impact it.

 

[MrWonka]

Doctors are rich for a reason. The problem is we treat health care like its a public utility, instead of the trade good it is. If we treated it like every other good, there would be more of it.

In order for a good to be tradable, both sides have to have the ability to reject the trade. Doctors cannot, and should not be able to reject someone in need of their services. Just like School, Roads, Electricity, or Water, these are necessities. People need them, and you can't just shut them off because people are too poor. Some can be subsidized, others straight up provided, but it is imperative that everyone can get access to them when they need them.

 

[ludin]

My wife pays 250 for her plan B supplement plan, no other supplements are needed, plus her Medicare payment, you need to take another look at your plans.

I don't have medicare. I have a family. my current insurance is way cheaper than that.
those are the average costs.

that is on top of the massive tax hike i will have to pay as well.

which makes it even more expensive.

 

[ludin]

In order for a good to be tradable, both sides have to have the ability to reject the trade. Doctors cannot, and should not be able to reject someone in need of their services. Just like School, Roads, Electricity, or Water, these are necessities. People need them, and you can't just shut them off because people are too poor. Some can be subsidized, others straight up provided, but it is imperative that everyone can get access to them when they need them.

Doctors reject new patients, withdraw from medicare and medicaid all the time.
you can't stop them.

we got rid of indentured servitude a long time ago.

 

[MrWonka]

Doctors reject new patients

Not in emergency rooms. There may be specialists who have a full slate and don't have time to see everybody, but almost nobody is ever rejected out of the gate because they're poor.

we got rid of indentured servitude a long time ago.

And Ronald Reagan brought it back for Doctors...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_Medical_Treatment_and_Active_Labor_Act

The cost of emergency care required by EMTALA is not directly covered by the federal government, so it has been characterized as an unfunded mandate.[7] Uncompensated care represents 6% of total hospital costs.

 

[MrWonka]

I remember reading somewhere that doctors tried forming unions. The courts said it was not legal. I don’t know what it was about the business of medicine that made it illegal.

Probably the fact that it would be unconscionable for Doctors to go on strike and let people die. Either way, if you go, single payer, they're going to need a Union.

 

[ludin]

Not in emergency rooms. There may be specialists who have a full slate and don't have time to see everybody, but almost nobody is ever rejected out of the gate because they're poor.


And Ronald Reagan brought it back for Doctors...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_Medical_Treatment_and_Active_Labor_Act

The cost of emergency care required by EMTALA is not directly covered by the federal government, so it has been characterized as an unfunded mandate.[7] Uncompensated care represents 6% of total hospital costs.

This is called moving the goal posts.

what is more dishonest is that you can't quote me fully?
why do you people do that? ol yea because you can't address actual arguments made.

No he didn't bring it back for doctors. It only applies to emergency rooms.
not your every day GP. quit being dishonest if you can.

It was a bad policy to pass as well. It has lead to a huge increase in emergency room costs and doesn't allow for any kind of
triage. People that don't need the emergency room go in regardless. clogging it up for people that might actually need it.

obamacare made it worse and single payer will make it devastating.

i have been to a public hospital in a country with single payer. you could barely walk in the door.
in any even nothing you said refutes my argument.

Doctors reject patients all the time.
Also you can't force a doctor to take those patients.

 

[ludin]

Probably the fact that it would be unconscionable for Doctors to go on strike and let people die. Either way, if you go, single payer, they're going to need a Union.

nope no need for a union as they don't have to accept single payer just like they don't have to accept medicaid or medicare or even some private insurance.

 

[MrWonka]

nope no need for a union as they don't have to accept single payer just like they don't have to accept Medicaid or Medicare or even some private insurance.

You don't seem to know what single payer means.

 

[MrWonka]

This is called moving the goal posts.

No, he didn't bring it back for doctors. It only applies to emergency rooms.

No, you just don't have the mental capacity to understand what your own argument is.

It has lead to a huge increase in emergency room costs and doesn't allow for any kind of triage. People that don't need the emergency room go in regardless. clogging it up for people that might actually need it.

Right, so there are two solutions. One, open up non-emergency rooms to everyone as well and make sure they can pay their bill or pay it for them. Two, let people get progressively sicker and die just because they are poor. Given the two choices, the first one is the only one that is acceptable.

ObamaCare made it worse

False. The ACA expanded coverage to around 24 million people who otherwise wouldn't have had it and as a result, they could go to non-emergency rooms when they should.

in any even nothing you said refutes my argument.

Then you don't understand your own argument. You said a doctor being forced to do their job against their will without pay was an indentured servant, and you said we don't have any of those. I proved that in fact, Ronald Reagan's bill did in fact force at least some doctors to do their job against their will without pay. So you're wrong.

Doctors reject patients all the time.

Not because they're poor, and not when they truly need it.

Also, you can't force a doctor to take those patients.

Yes, you can. Although realistically you don't have to force a doctor to take those patients they are generally quite happy to. They just make up for it by charging the rest of their patients a little be more money to make up for it.

 

[ataraxia]

Exactly why we should have a bipartisan health care system. Obama and the left were arrogant to think they could cram through Obamacare and expect that they would be in power forever. And, Trump & Co, while they didn't really succeed in their own partisan health care program, would have been arrogant to think they could cram through their own health care system and be in power forever. The only working solution is to have a truly bipartisan health care system.

In the middle of negotiations, Mitch McConnell said that his sole goal was "to make Obama a one-term president", and Boehner said "we will not compromise". What does that tell you about the mindset of the right and the prospects of a bipartisan anything?

 

[ataraxia]

nope no need for a union as they don't have to accept single payer just like they don't have to accept medicaid or medicare or even some private insurance.

The majority of doctors want a single payer system.

 

[ataraxia]

Probably the fact that it would be unconscionable for Doctors to go on strike and let people die. Either way, if you go, single payer, they're going to need a Union.

They have pretty powerful enough lobbies.

 

[ludin]

You don't seem to know what single payer means.

yep you don't.

 

[ludin]

No, you just don't have the mental capacity to understand what your own argument is.

IE You got caught making an argument that was not supported by anything other than your opinion. I still see you can't quote me properly.
but that is the level of dishonesty I expect. If i have to I will go back and quote your originial argument no where did you mention emergancy rooms.
YOu didn't start bringing that up until well i showed that your last argument was false. that is what we call moving the goal posts.

Right, so there are two solutions. One, open up non-emergency rooms to everyone as well and make sure they can pay their bill or pay it for them. Two, let people get progressively sicker and die just because they are poor. Given the two choices, the first one is the only one that is acceptable.

False dichotomy fallacy will always be a fallacy.

False. The ACA expanded coverage to around 24 million people who otherwise wouldn't have had it and as a result, they could go to non-emergency rooms when they should.

Yes you are wrong yet again.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...sits-rise-under-affordable-care-act/26625571/

Then you don't understand your own argument. You said a doctor being forced to do their job against their will without pay was an indentured servant, and you said we don't have any of those. I proved that in fact, Ronald Reagan's bill did in fact force at least some doctors to do their job against their will without pay. So you're wrong.

You don't know YOUR own argument. Why do you have to be dishonest? You cannot make doctors accept your single payer plans, just like they reject all sorts of plans today.
when you got caught you moved the goal posts and started off with the ER.

that was no part of YOUR argument at all. Also the ER policy only applies to the hospital and ER.

Not because they're poor, and not when they truly need it.

Strawman argument no one said anything about them being poor.

Yes, you can. Although realistically you don't have to force a doctor to take those patients they are generally quite happy to. They just make up for it by charging the rest of their patients a little be more money to make up for it.

Who says they are happy too? The reason most doctors are dropping medicaid and medicare patients is the cost to pay ratio is too low.
sometimes negative.

 

[ludin]

The majority of doctors want a single payer system.

Really because well The AAPS disagrees with you by a very wide margin.

https://www.benefitspro.com/2017/09...ose-single-payer-med/?slreturn=20180616141754

 

[MrWonka]

If I have to I will go back and quote your original argument nowhere did you mention emergency rooms.

I didn't have to. I said, Doctors. Doctors that work in emergency rooms count as Doctors.

that is what we call moving the goal posts.

No, that's what you're doing. All Emergency Room Doctors are Doctors. I said Doctors which includes Emergency Room Doctors. You said doctors didn't work for free. I proved some did, and now you're trying to move the goal posts to make it seem like emergency room doctors are different than doctors.

False dichotomy fallacy will always be a fallacy.

Nope. Those are the only two choices. Either poor people get rejected by doctors and die, or we find a way to help them pay for care. There's no option C.

Yes you are wrong yet again.

Nope. This is just a short-term problem that's created by the fact that there aren't enough primary care doctors to handle the initial demand. The market will adjust over time.

You cannot make doctors accept your single-payer plans, just like they reject all sorts of plans today.

They reject plans they don't like because they can accept others. When there's only one, that's the one they'll have to take or just they won't get to be doctors anymore.

when you got caught you moved the goal posts and started off with the ER.

The ER is an example of a Doctor. You are trying to move the goal post by pretending they are not because it proves your own argument wrong.

that was no part of YOUR argument at all. Also the ER policy only applies to the hospital and ER.

And what do we call Doctors that work at an ER? Answer: Doctors.

Strawman argument no one said anything about them being poor.

It's my argument. You can't accuse me of a strawman when it's my argument. Learn what these fallacies mean before you use them.

You said Doctors reject patients all the time. I said, but not because the patients are poor. Which is what we're actually talking about. They reject them because they don't have time to see them. You are the one trying to move the goalposts here buddy.

Who says they are happy too? The reason most doctors are dropping Medicaid and Medicare patients is the cost to pay ratio is too low.
sometimes negative.

Doctors say that...
https://www.factcheck.org/2017/03/medicaids-doctor-participation-rates/

federal statistics gathered over recent years show that the percentage of physicians accepting new Medicaid patients has remained around 70 percent. We found no support for the idea that the participation rate has declined under the ACA.

The most recent figures from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s National Center for Health Statistics are for 2013, showing the percentage of physicians accepting new Medicaid patients was 68.9 percent, while 84.7 percent accepted new privately insured patients and 83.7 percent accepted new Medicare patients. That’s based on a national survey of more than 4,000 office-based physicians.

You don't seem to know what the word MOST means.

 

[MrWonka]

Really because well The AAPS disagrees with you by a very wide margin.

https://www.benefitspro.com/2017/09...ose-single-payer-med/?slreturn=20180616141754

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Association_of_American_Physicians_and_Surgeons

This is a far right propaganda network designed to make itself look like a serious medical organization like the AMA. I would not trust any of the information you find here.

 

[ludin]

I didn't have to. I said, Doctors. Doctors that work in emergency rooms count as Doctors.
No, that's what you're doing. All Emergency Room Doctors are Doctors. I said Doctors which includes Emergency Room Doctors. You said doctors didn't work for free. I proved some did, and now you're trying to move the goal posts to make it seem like emergency room doctors are different than doctors.

Now you are back peddling for good reason. You were wrong the first time. Doctors don't work for free. ER doctors are paid by the hospital. yes you are trying to move the goal posts.
No you are trying to do that because you were wrong in what you said.

Nope. Those are the only two choices. Either poor people get rejected by doctors and die, or we find a way to help them pay for care. There's no option C.

Again changing the argument into something else again moving the goal posts. now you are throwing in appeal to emotion arguments.

Nope. This is just a short-term problem that's created by the fact that there aren't enough primary care doctors to handle the initial demand. The market will adjust over time.

Which means you WERE WRONG. already proven your argument wrong on that one.

They reject plans they don't like because they can accept others. When there's only one, that's the one they'll have to take or just they won't get to be doctors anymore.

Actually more doctors are starting to reject insurance plans altogether. concierge medicine is catching on. More and more doctors are starting to look at it as an option.
they can offer cheaper more affordable care without the need for insurance companies. I have been saying for a while now that cash is king and it is way cheaper.

The ER is an example of a Doctor. You are trying to move the goal post by pretending they are not because it proves your own argument wrong.

No i proved your argument incorrect. it was obvious what you said was wrong. you didn't start bringing up the ER until you got busted.

It's is my argument. You can't accuse me of a strawman when it's my argument. Learn what these fallacies mean before you use them.

You evidently don't know what a strawman argument is. It is when you try to argue something that no one else is arguing.
informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent.

yes you need to learn what fallacy is then you would stop using them.

You said Doctors reject patients all the time. I said, but not because the patients are poor. Which is what we're actually talking about. They reject them because they don't have time to see them. You are the one trying to move the goalposts here buddy.

I said nothing about people being poor which makes it a strawman. Yes we know you are because your argument has been busted from the get go.
Your word twisting doesn't work on me or anyone else.

The fact you can't be honest is not my issue but frankly expected. You can't own that your arguments were incorrect.
You made the generic arguments you got called on them. then you start moving the goalposts because what you said was
in fact wrong.

Doctors say that...
https://www.factcheck.org/2017/03/medicaids-doctor-participation-rates/

Fewer doctors are opting out of Medicare - Modern Healthcare
fact check needs to update itself.
it is a bit outdated.