POLL: Would terrorists be swayed by a "system of compassion?"

[Felis Leo]

Are you really falling for S.A. window dressing? The Saudis are sending their agents to foreign nations to kill or harass any Saudi national that dares criticize the country. Their alleged moderation is a fig leaf.

P.B.S. FRONTLINE:

"A madrassa is an Islamic religious school. Many of the Taliban were educated in Saudi-financed madrassas in Pakistan that teach Wahhabism, a particularly austere and rigid form of Islam which is rooted in Saudi Arabia. Around the world, Saudi wealth and charities contributed to an explosive growth of madrassas during the Afghan jihad against the Soviets. During that war (1979-1989), a new kind of madrassa emerged in the Pakistan-Afghanistan region -- not so much concerned about scholarship as making war on infidels. The enemy then was the Soviet Union, today it's America...."

A point of correction, Cassandra. The Taliban are not Wahhabists. They are Deobandi which is a school of North Indian Sunni fundamentalist revivalism, and their original leader, Mullah Omar exploded onto the scene in 1994 along with fellow students (taliban) from a Deobandi Madrassa. The Deobandi school has been a part of Afghanistan's cultural religious landscape for nearly a century and a half. They are not foreign Arabic implants in Afghanistan. They are a part and parcel of Afghanistan's native Pashtun Islamic faith.

The points of distinction may seem meaningless, but it would be like me claiming that the Irish Republican Army was made up of Greek Orthodox sectarians.

 

[Ouroboros]

Compassion at what point in their lives and by whom?

Beyond that, how's invading their countries, seizing their natural resources, attempting to impose our values and religions on them, destroying the cities and villages, killing their women and children and innocents, destroying their historical sites and destroying their mosques working out for the U.S.?

What specific invasions, resource-stealing etc. motivated Osama bin Ladin to turn against the people who helped him kick Russia out of Afghanistan (regardless of the CIA's specific motives for their actions)?

 

[Ouroboros]

Anything that de-radicalizes a radicalized man and prevents him from committing violence, I'm all for.

Are there any well-documented instances of terrorists who have been reformed by mercy?

What prevents the guy who gets mercy from just thinking, "What a bunch of schmucks! These guys deserve to get blown up again!"

 

[Ouroboros]

Ultimately, women win the war against terrorism. Each in their neighborhoods. Empowerment for hearts and minds.

In the meantime, everyone should kill as many terrorists as possible.

That's very funny.

 

[Ouroboros]

The OP did not provide a link. Two Pinocchios... for misleading context.



FACT CHECK: Did Rep. Ilhan Omar Call for Lighter Sentences for Would-Be ISIS Recruits?

There were a couple of different sites reprinting the letter, so it's not lying to excerpt the letter w/o crediting Snopes. So your Pinocchios rebound upon you.

 

[Ouroboros]

Re: POLL: Would terrorists be swayed by a "system of compassion?"

The OP is a nice shiny example of one of the problems we have with radicals. We treat them as caricatures. We’re supposed to look inside people we don’t know and decide how’d they react to compassion. Hell the OP doesn’t even bother to tell us what they did - the fact that they’re terrorists should be enough for us to conclude that they’re emotionless killing machines that deserve life plus 50 or maybe a bullet in the head.

Maybe they do. Who knows. But then maybe they don’t. People aren’t labels. And all people that you affix a label to don’t all act the same way.

Is it possible that some terrorists could be reformed by mercy? Maybe, and so far as it goes, it's correct to point that out.

But it's fallacious to claim that no one can make a summary judgment of the likelihood of mercy's dominant effects without considering every separate individual and the specific accusation(s) against him.

 

[stevecanuck]

Re: POLL: Would terrorists be swayed by a "system of compassion?"

The OP is a nice shiny example of one of the problems we have with radicals. We treat them as caricatures. We’re supposed to look inside people we don’t know and decide how’d they react to compassion. Hell the OP doesn’t even bother to tell us what they did - the fact that they’re terrorists should be enough for us to conclude that they’re emotionless killing machines that deserve life plus 50 or maybe a bullet in the head.

Maybe they do. Who knows. But then maybe they don’t. People aren’t labels. And all people that you affix a label to don’t all act the same way.

True enough, but on the flip side of that coin I think that all people who voluntarily label themselves (as does every mujahid in the world), do strive to act the same way. That's the whole point of such self-identification.

 

[Cassandra]

The US and the rest of the world's intelligence community can't be correct, huh?

Thanks, Putin.

Or maybe you should take some time to read what Repub. Senator Bob Graham has to say about the Saudi involvement in 9/11
It seems you have bought into the Saudi well financed P.R. campaign

Former Sen. Bob Graham says ‘all the evidence points to’ Saudi Arabia’s involvement with 9/11 terrorists - New York Daily News


VOX news:
In 2011, when he was a teenager, Mujtaba al-Sweikat attended a handful of pro-democracy rallies in Saudi Arabia. This week, after imprisoning him for seven years, the Saudi government beheaded him.

Saudi Arabia Is Committing War Crimes in Yemen – Foreign Policy

Yeh, fine ally, the Saudis.



Saudi women: Why they flee, and the obstacles they face - INSIDER

 

[Trippy Trekker]

There were a couple of different sites reprinting the letter, so it's not lying to excerpt the letter w/o crediting Snopes. So your Pinocchios rebound upon you.

I didn't accuse you of lying. My criticism stands because of your misleading context.

 

[Ouroboros]

I didn't accuse you of lying. My criticism stands because of your misleading context.

The Blue Fairy : A lie keeps growing and growing until it's as plain as the nose on your face.

OK, so you're not aware that a mention of Pinocchio automatically connotes lying. I'm glad you've learned better now. So how is it "misleading context" to print the letter by itself, without (say) any of Snopes's interpretation? (This, BTW, would have been irrelevant to my topic, because Snopes was responding to some more extreme characterizations of Omar's position.)

 

[Cassandra]

A point of correction, Cassandra. The Taliban are not Wahhabists. They are Deobandi which is a school of North Indian Sunni fundamentalist revivalism, and their original leader, Mullah Omar exploded onto the scene in 1994 along with fellow students (taliban) from a Deobandi Madrassa. The Deobandi school has been a part of Afghanistan's cultural religious landscape for nearly a century and a half. They are not foreign Arabic implants in Afghanistan. They are a part and parcel of Afghanistan's native Pashtun Islamic faith.

The points of distinction may seem meaningless, but it would be like me claiming that the Irish Republican Army was made up of Greek Orthodox sectarians.

Thanks for that info. however, it nonetheless appears that the Taliban (meaning Student) were educated in Pakistani Madrassas and those madrassas teach an intolerant form of Sunni faith that is very similar to Wahhabism. Furthermore, the Saudis contributed to the formation of these schools. The Taliban were certainly murderous toward Shias and protective of Al Queda. We all know what happened to them next.


'Tsunami of money' from Saudi Arabia funding 24,000 Pakistan madrassas - The Economic Times

 

[Trippy Trekker]

OK, so you're not aware that a mention of Pinocchio automatically connotes lying. I'm glad you've learned better now. So how is it "misleading context" to print the letter by itself, without (say) any of Snopes's interpretation? (This, BTW, would have been irrelevant to my topic, because Snopes was responding to some more extreme characterizations of Omar's position.)

Making assumptions again huh?

Two Pinocchios denotes a half-truth. Your intransigence duly noted, you earned my criticism.

Post away!

Two Pinocchios

Significant omissions and/or exaggerations. Some factual error may be involved but not necessarily. A politician can create a false, misleading impression by playing with words and using legalistic language that means little to ordinary people. (Similar to "half true.")

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/01/07/about-fact-checker/?noredirect=on

 

[Ouroboros]

Making assumptions again huh?

Two Pinocchios denotes a half-truth. Your intransigence duly noted, you earned my criticism.

Post away!

Two Pinocchios



https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/01/07/about-fact-checker/?noredirect=on

Even going with this specialized definition, you have yet to show any "significant omission" (at least not on my part; you're doing pretty well in that department).

 

[VanceMack]

Christians say we should have love for all human beings.

I take it you disagree.

We 'love' based on who WE are. We 'like' based on who YOU are. It is absolutely acceptable to love all...and recognize the need to eliminate the enemies of mankind with extreme prejudice.

I dont really have the time right now or I would post some of the images of homosexuals being bashed to death or smashing children between two rocks...maybe you could go love their murderers into reason and tolerance.

 

[Trippy Trekker]

Even going with this specialized definition, you have yet to show any "significant omission" (at least not on my part; you're doing pretty well in that department).

Doh! For starters, you wrote "Here's the text of her Nov 8 letter". You omitted the year. You could have easily provided a link to the entire letter.

She wrote the letter on behalf of defendant Abdirahman Daud to a Federal Judge in Minneapolis named Michael Davis.

Daud's attorney, Bruce Nestor, in November 2016, submitted her letter, along with 12 other letters, in a recorded document to the applicable U.S Federal Court.

The judge sentenced Daud, currently age 25, to 30 years.

 

[JustHanging]

Ilhan Omar thinks so. I do not.

Here's the text of her Nov 8 letter pleading for leniency of nine convicted terrorists. Agree with her or disagree?

___________

As you undoubtedly deliberate with great caution the sentencing of nine recently convicted Somali-American men, I bring to your attention the ramifications of sentencing young men who made a consequential mistake to decades in federal prison. Incarcerating 20-year-old men for 30 or 40 years is essentially a life sentence. Society will have no expectations of the to be 50- or 60-year-old released prisoners; it will view them with distrust and revulsion. Such punitive measures not only lack efficacy, they inevitably create an environment in which extremism can flourish, aligning with the presupposition of terrorist recruitment: “Americans do not accept you and continue to trivialize your value. Instead of being a nobody, be a martyr.”

The best deterrent to fanaticism is a system of compassion. We must alter our attitude and approach; if we truly want to affect [sic] change, we should refocus our efforts on inclusion and rehabilitation. A long-term prison sentence for one who chose violence to combat direct marginalization is a statement that our justice system misunderstands the guilty. A restorative approach to justice assesses the lure of criminality and addresses it.

The desire to commit violence is not inherent to people — it is the consequence of systematic alienation; people seek violent solutions when the process established for enacting change is inaccessible to them. Fueled by disaffection turned to malice, if the guilty were willing to kill and be killed fighting perceived injustice, imagine the consequence of them hearing, “I believe you can be rehabilitated. I want you to become part of my community, and together we will thrive.”

I'm for compassion, as anti-biblical, anti-Qaran as that may be.

Racism and hatred only fuel terrorism.

 

[Ouroboros]

Doh! For starters, you wrote "Here's the text of her Nov 8 letter". You omitted the year. You could have easily provided a link to the entire letter.

She wrote the letter on behalf of defendant Abdirahman Daud to a Federal Judge in Minneapolis named Michael Davis.

Daud's attorney, Bruce Nestor, in November 2016, submitted her letter, along with 12 other letters, in a recorded document to the applicable U.S Federal Court.

The judge sentenced Daud, currently age 25, to 30 years.

Not even close to a significant omission, and not relevant to the base proposition she puts forth: whether or not mercy necessarily warms the hearts of those who have already decided that a given country is their sworn enemy.

 

[Trippy Trekker]

Not even close to a significant omission, and not relevant to the base proposition she puts forth: whether or not mercy necessarily warms the hearts of those who have already decided that a given country is their sworn enemy.

Yeah.... wink wink... "Not even close..." and "... not relevant...".

If only the voters in her district find about this letter, she might not win reelection!

 

[Bullseye]

Ilhan Omar thinks so. I do not.

Here's the text of her Nov 8 letter pleading for leniency of nine convicted terrorists. Agree with her or disagree?

___________

As you undoubtedly deliberate with great caution the sentencing of nine recently convicted Somali-American men, I bring to your attention the ramifications of sentencing young men who made a consequential mistake to decades in federal prison. Incarcerating 20-year-old men for 30 or 40 years is essentially a life sentence. Society will have no expectations of the to be 50- or 60-year-old released prisoners; it will view them with distrust and revulsion. Such punitive measures not only lack efficacy, they inevitably create an environment in which extremism can flourish, aligning with the presupposition of terrorist recruitment: “Americans do not accept you and continue to trivialize your value. Instead of being a nobody, be a martyr.”

The best deterrent to fanaticism is a system of compassion. We must alter our attitude and approach; if we truly want to affect [sic] change, we should refocus our efforts on inclusion and rehabilitation. A long-term prison sentence for one who chose violence to combat direct marginalization is a statement that our justice system misunderstands the guilty. A restorative approach to justice assesses the lure of criminality and addresses it.

The desire to commit violence is not inherent to people — it is the consequence of systematic alienation; people seek violent solutions when the process established for enacting change is inaccessible to them. Fueled by disaffection turned to malice, if the guilty were willing to kill and be killed fighting perceived injustice, imagine the consequence of them hearing, “I believe you can be rehabilitated. I want you to become part of my community, and together we will thrive.”

I guess she forgot that the Black Hawk Down incident and the "killing of 1000's of Somalis by the forces of satan", e.g. the US Military occurred during a mission of compassion.

 

[JustHanging]

No! Terrorists want you to convert to Islam, or die

Yeah, that's standard for the Abrahamic religions: Convert or die!

Luke 19: “but those enemies of mine who do not want me to reign over them, bring them here, and kill them in front of me.”

John 15:6 "If anyone does not abide in me, he shall be cast outside as the branch and whither; and they shall gather them up and cast them into the fire, and they shall burn"

 

[Irredentist]

Ilhan Omar thinks so. I do not.

Here's the text of her Nov 8 letter pleading for leniency of nine convicted terrorists. Agree with her or disagree?

___________

As you undoubtedly deliberate with great caution the sentencing of nine recently convicted Somali-American men, I bring to your attention the ramifications of sentencing young men who made a consequential mistake to decades in federal prison. Incarcerating 20-year-old men for 30 or 40 years is essentially a life sentence. Society will have no expectations of the to be 50- or 60-year-old released prisoners; it will view them with distrust and revulsion. Such punitive measures not only lack efficacy, they inevitably create an environment in which extremism can flourish, aligning with the presupposition of terrorist recruitment: “Americans do not accept you and continue to trivialize your value. Instead of being a nobody, be a martyr.”

The best deterrent to fanaticism is a system of compassion. We must alter our attitude and approach; if we truly want to affect [sic] change, we should refocus our efforts on inclusion and rehabilitation. A long-term prison sentence for one who chose violence to combat direct marginalization is a statement that our justice system misunderstands the guilty. A restorative approach to justice assesses the lure of criminality and addresses it.

The desire to commit violence is not inherent to people — it is the consequence of systematic alienation; people seek violent solutions when the process established for enacting change is inaccessible to them. Fueled by disaffection turned to malice, if the guilty were willing to kill and be killed fighting perceived injustice, imagine the consequence of them hearing, “I believe you can be rehabilitated. I want you to become part of my community, and together we will thrive.”

Unless we want to be fighting terrorists and extremists until the end of time, eventually someone's going to have to make the first move towards reconciliation. Offering compassion and mercy to those who may not deserve it is a decent start.

 

[stevecanuck]

I'm still waiting for any of the official defenders of Islam to admit that the Qur'an contains hundreds of infidel-hating verses as well as many exhortations to commit violence against them (especially in the later surahs). If they start with that simple admission of the truth, and then want to try to convince us that, for example, such verses no longer apply, or give us some other reason not to treat Islam with suspicion, then we might have some hope for being able to come to some sort of accommodation with our Muslim neighbors. But, as usual, Omar doesn't even come close to mentioning that these Islamic terrorists just might have been influenced by the Qur'an.

 

[Port & Starboard]

Compassion at what point in their lives and by whom?

Beyond that, how's invading their countries, seizing their natural resources, attempting to impose our values and religions on them, destroying the cities and villages, killing their women and children and innocents, destroying their historical sites and destroying their mosques working out for the U.S.?

Muslim's did to their people long before attacking the USA, and before the USA ever got over there.

God......you just cannot be this ignorant!

 

[Ouroboros]

I guess she forgot that the Black Hawk Down incident and the "killing of 1000's of Somalis by the forces of satan", e.g. the US Military occurred during a mission of compassion.

I didn't want to bring up that incident to start off, but yeah, that's been on my mind since creating this thread: that a lot of radicalized countries equate mercy and/or charity with weakness.

 

[eohrnberger]

You must be kidding?! Where have you been as "the reformer" murders Kashoggi, arrests anyone who criticizes the kingdom, and commits human rights abuses in Yemen?. The Saudis are Wahhabis and they fund the spread of their vile extremism. It is shameful that we are cozy w the Saudis, the source of Islamic extremism while punishing Iran, a far more moderate regime.


New arrests in Saudi Arabia target people with ties to jailed women activists – Women in the World


"Saudi Arabia intensified its crackdown on political activism this week with a new round of arrests targeting people seen to be supportive of women’s rights.

Those detained include individuals with ties to a group of women activists who were arrested in May 2018 for protesting the country’s ban on women driving and its “guardianship laws.” Those women have faced brutal torture and sexual assault while in detention, to the point that they have been unable to walk or stand, according to reports by human rights groups.

The eight people detained this week include a feminist writer who is pregnant, and the son of women’s rights activist Aziza al-Yousef, one of the women arrested last "

That's head in sand ignorant. That's as clueless about international politics as one can be. Iran is the largest state sponsor of terrorism in the world. Hezbollah is Iran. SA cooperates with the US, providing intel and conducting joint operations.

Iran chants, "Death to America. Death to Israel." in its legislature for decades. In Saudi, the terrorist support comes from private sources.

Now, maybe you're too young to remember what SA used to be like. Or maybe you don't understand what "reformer" means, but looking at a snapshot in time through tinted lenses is no way to become informed.

Well stated and well posted.

I would add that it is inherently racist and narrow minded to measure another culture and its values by your own culture and values.

In the cited example of Kashoggi, in that culture it is illegal to criticize the royal family (I think I have that correct).

It is not right nor is it wrong. It is just their way, their values, and their society, and, yes, they do in fact get to make up their own rules that they decide to live by. Too bad that they are not Western ones and too bad they are not yours. But let's face it, it is their country and it is their society.

So your fauxrage is misplaced. No one is forcing you to go there, nor to live your life by their rules.

This is how these 12 countries will punish you for insulting their heads of state

1. Azerbaijan: Up to two years' "corrective labor"
2. Lebanon: Up to $66,400 in fines
3. Venezuela: Up to 40 months in prison
4. Poland: Up to three years in prison
5. Turkey: Up to four years in prison
6. The Netherlands: Up to five years in prison
7. Cameroon: Up to $42,260 in fines
8. Bahrain: Up to seven years in prison
9. Kuwait: Permanent exile
10. Thailand: Up to 15 years in prison
11. Iran: 74 lashes
12. Indonesia: Up to five years in prison?

Wow. I'm rather surprised by the Netherlands.

How Criticizing Arab Governments Becomes Illegal - Carnegie Middle ...
carnegie-mec.org/sada/20873
Aug 18, 2008 - How Criticizing Arab Governments Becomes Illegal ... the president” (or the royal family), “offending religion,” “spreading false information that ...

Saudi economist who criticised Aramco IPO charged with terrorism ...
[url]https://uk.reuters.com/...saudi.../saudi-economist-who-criticised-aramco-ipo-charged-...[/URL]
Oct 1, 2018 - Saudi Arabia's public prosecutor has charged a man, identified by ... unions are illegal, the media are controlled and criticism of the royal family ...
​

It's their country, and they get to make their rules for their country. You visit their country, respect their rules (i.e. when in Rome . . .)