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Mexico Never Agreed to Farm Deal With U.S., Contradicting Trump

Bullseye said:
Yeah, fine. believe whatever jabberwocky BS your TDS requires. :roll:
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I don't have Trump Devotion Syndrome. The article shows that the deal had nothing to do with tariffs, and that's not my fault.
 
Cardinal said:
I don't have Trump Devotion Syndrome. The article shows that the deal had nothing to do with tariffs, and that's not my fault.
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LOL Yeah, who you going to believe the NYT or your lying eyes? :lol: When was an official document between the countries signed, before Trump threatened tariffs or after? Do you seriously believe a secret discussion between a couple of third-tier officials carries the same weigh as a publicly signed document?
 
Winston said:
Trump has empowered Khamenei and disempowered moderating forces in Iran, you do see that?
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A few points, Winston. First, Iran is not a democracy in any real sense; it is an autocracy ruled over by the Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khamanei who has absolute authority over Iran's government and its people in turn. So how exactly was he disempowered by prior administrations versus Donald Trump's now?

As for "moderating forces" within Iran, who are they exactly? And further, how were they exercising their moderating influence? Outside of a revolution, how exactly were moderating forces going to be empowered, when the only one who legally has the final say over who is empowered or disempowered is literally the Supreme Leader? At that point, they are simply co-opted puppets of the regime and not moderates at all, like the humbug moderate cleric Hassan Rouhani.
 
Cardinal said:
I know that yet another "Trump lied" story is incredibly quaint by now, but it does beg two important questions:

1) How has our country managed to function while its head of state has had precisely zero credibility?
2) Could I lie to people infinity times and just...get away with it?"



Mexico Never Agreed to Farm Deal With U.S., Contradicting Trump - Bloomberg

Prediction that I will deserve no credit for making: trump supporters will pretend to doubt the veracity of the story. Then, upon realizing that denying the article is futile after realizing later in the thread that they didn't read the totality of it, they'll move on to "so what?" or "ha ha tds."
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If I was a Trump supporter, I'd be pretty pissed that he lies to me all the time, regardless how many illegals he locks up and liberals he puts in their place. I tend to dislike those people, like Trump, who live off of insulting my intelligence.

But, that would probably explain why I am not one of his sycophants.
 
Bullseye said:
LOL Yeah, who you going to believe the NYT or your lying eyes? :lol: When was an official document between the countries signed, before Trump threatened tariffs or after? Do you seriously believe a secret discussion between a couple of third-tier officials carries the same weigh as a publicly signed document?
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Why do trump supporters always have to go through with this strange ritual where they deny the story for a few pages before finally accepting it? Just fast forward to the point where you say, "Don't care" already.
 
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Winston said:
Trump has realized that there are millions out there just as ignorant as he is. It doesn't matter that Mexico never agreed to do that. Trump said they did, therefore, it's a huge win for Trumpism.
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Trump did say he loves the poorly educated
 
CMPancake said:
Trump is allowing the country that supported the 9/11 attacks to have nuclear weapons.
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He is quite comfortable dealing with a country that executes teenagers, even by crucifixion if beheading is not seen as adequate.
 
Cardinal said:
Why do trump supporters always have to go through with this strange ritual where they deny the story for a few pages after finally accepting it? Just fast forward to the point where you say, "Don't care" already.
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Barr Syndrome. Get the lie out early and often, hope enough idiots buy it.
 
Felis Leo said:
A few points, Winston. First, Iran is not a democracy in any real sense; it is an autocracy ruled over by the Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khamanei who has absolute authority over Iran's government and its people in turn. So how exactly was he disempowered by prior administrations versus Donald Trump's now?

As for "moderating forces" within Iran, who are they exactly? And further, how were they exercising their moderating influence? Outside of a revolution, how exactly were moderating forces going to be empowered, when the only one who legally has the final say over who is empowered or disempowered is literally the Supreme Leader? At that point, they are simply co-opted puppets of the regime and not moderates at all, like the humbug moderate cleric Hassan Rouhani.
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I'm not sure where anybody claimed that Iran is a Democracy. But what's important is that like any country, Iran does have extreme right wing and more moderate political parties, just like our own. And just like our own, more moderate parties are strengthened by moderate foreign policies, and our own far right parties are more strengthened by extremist right wing foreign policies (this includes acts of terrorism as well). So why should it be surprising that Trump's policies have strengthened Iran's far right party and delegitimized the positions of their more moderate parties?
 
Bullseye said:
North Korea is not part of Mexico, nor is Mexico a province of North Korea; what's your point? I made the point elsewhere that Mexico STILL HAS to follow through on this deal. Just like every other international agree since the beginning of time signing a document isn't the proof - follow through is.
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Yes after every economist and advisor warned against the tariffs, the Mexicans gave him some cover to drop the issue. Do you believe he will be bringing up tariffs again soon?
 
JMR said:
Yes after every economist and advisor warned against the tariffs, the Mexicans gave him some cover to drop the issue. Do you believe he will be bringing up tariffs again soon?
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"Mexico gave him cover"? WTF are you talking about?


I saw earlier today he's inviting China to re-start trade negotiations. Answer your question?
 
Cardinal said:
I'm not sure where anybody claimed that Iran is a Democracy. But what's important is that like any country, Iran does have extreme right wing and more moderate political parties, just like our own. And just like our own, more moderate parties are strengthened by moderate foreign policies, and our own far right parties are more strengthened by extremist right wing foreign policies (this includes acts of terrorism as well). So why should it be surprising that Trump's policies have strengthened Iran's far right party and delegitimized the positions of their more moderate parties?
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The question is: To what effect were these moderates poised to make changes in Iranian society? And what were they? Were the moderates about to perform a palace coup and oust Khameini prior to Trump's election? Or perhaps push real democratic reforms and recognition of liberties of woman and human rights of oppressed minorities like the Baha'i sect or the Iranian gay community in the law? Or were they just going to put another friendly faces in positions of non-power, like those of Rouhanis, rather than a teeth-gnashing fascist like Mahmoud Ahmadinejad? "Empowering moderates" means nothing in an autocracy when there are no effective levers of power.

Second, (beginning rant) from a personal perspective, I do not care about "moderates" within an autocratic regime. Albert Speer was a "moderate" National Socialist, when compared to Adolf Hitler or Heinrich Himmler. His moderation did not stop him from going along with atrocities that he knew about. Nikita Kruschev was a "moderate" Marxist-Leninist, when compared to Joseph Stalin or Molotov. His moderation did not stop him from going along with atrocities that he knew about either.. I am sure there are "moderate" followers North Korean Juche Stalinism, certainly. I really do not care.

I want liberalizers who are not fascists and who want to actually establish rule of law and accountability of authority through democracy. Not so-called "moderate" fascists who promise to rule with slightly fewer random arrests, not quite-as-lengthy torture sessions, not as many public hangings of gays and other subversives. And before you answer that we have to deal with Iran as it is and deal with the fetid regime, I will point out that Iran is an extraordinarily well-educated country filled with millions upon millions of men and women who want liberal democracy and rule of law. It is not a state in which the vast majority of people have been brainwashed into believing in need for a dictatorship. This is one of the few countries where an actual revolution could succeed in bringing forth a real democracy rather than another autocratic despotism maintained by a minority of vicious cynical secret police who have to be bribed by controlling vast swathes of the economy in order to do the Regime's dirty work. *end rant*

In short, I see no reason to chase the ephemeral "moderate forces" within Iran's corrupt, autocratic governmental structure.
 
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Felis Leo said:
A few points, Winston. First, Iran is not a democracy in any real sense; it is an autocracy ruled over by the Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khamanei who has absolute authority over Iran's government and its people in turn. So how exactly was he disempowered by prior administrations versus Donald Trump's now?

As for "moderating forces" within Iran, who are they exactly? And further, how were they exercising their moderating influence? Outside of a revolution, how exactly were moderating forces going to be empowered, when the only one who legally has the final say over who is empowered or disempowered is literally the Supreme Leader? At that point, they are simply co-opted puppets of the regime and not moderates at all, like the humbug moderate cleric Hassan Rouhani.
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Iran is an autocracy, so statutorily Khamanei retains the same amount of power under both administrations. However, given that the people of any nation hold a fair amount of power in numbers, we can see that the protests in Iran calling for the moderates who negotiated the Iran Deal, among them Hassan Rouhani and Foreign Minister Mohammad Zarif step down, as an empowerment of the right wing fundamentalists in Iran like Khamanei.

The American right with Trump as their vessel, proved Khamanei right and proved the moderates who negotiated the Iran Deal wrong. Khamanei warned the President and the Foreign Minister that the Americans were not to be trusted and a few short years letter we proved them right. Given all the above is true, the American right and Trump have empowered the fundamentalist right wing by way of giving their voice credibility and the diplomatic voices less.
 
Bullseye said:
"Mexico gave him cover"? WTF are you talking about?


I saw earlier today he's inviting China to re-start trade negotiations. Answer your question?
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Mexico said OK we will send our National Guard to the border. Now he can say he solved the problem, Mexico avoids the tariffs, we don't have to discuss this (immigration) any longer because he fixed it.

It is truly sad that the rest of the world realizes that to deal with Trump just make him think he's fantastic, and there you go!
 
JMR said:
Mexico said OK we will send our National Guard to the border. Now he can say he solved the problem, Mexico avoids the tariffs, we don't have to discuss this (immigration) any longer because he fixed it.
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Nope. Not fixed but at least we're working on it. Too bad the House can't say the same thing.
JMR said:
It is truly sad that the rest of the world realizes that to deal with Trump just make him think he's fantastic, and there you go!
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Not sure you're qualified or knowledgeable enough to speak as to what the "rest of the world" realizes.
 
Cardinal said:
I'm not sure where anybody claimed that Iran is a Democracy. But what's important is that like any country, Iran does have extreme right wing and more moderate political parties, just like our own. And just like our own, more moderate parties are strengthened by moderate foreign policies, and our own far right parties are more strengthened by extremist right wing foreign policies (this includes acts of terrorism as well). So why should it be surprising that Trump's policies have strengthened Iran's far right party and delegitimized the positions of their more moderate parties?
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The U.S. pulling out of the Iran Deal was a crushing blow to moderates in Iran. Khamanei was proven correct in his estimation that we could not be trusted. He only had a coup and U.S. support for the Baathist's during the Iran-Iraq war to base his conclusion that America ****ing hates Iran to go off of. Americans are blinded by propaganda but, reality is not subject to such filters.

The moderates argued America could be trusted enough to do a deal. Khamanei listened to them despite warning them that America could not be trusted. A few short years later, the American right wing proves Khamanei correct. And now there are protests in the streets calling for the resignation of the moderates who negotiated the Iran Deal.
 
Bullseye said:
Doesn't explain why Mexico rushed to Washington. How exactly did Mexico "promise"? A binding international agreement? Or just informal "promises at "super secret meetings"? What actions had the actually taken? Sorry, no cigar.
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This is the problem with the OP's citation AND the way the Anti-Trump elements look at these issues.

Mexico had agreed to take actions Trump was citing "months ago" and yet did not. Trump got fed up with recent border crossing numbers occurring despite Mexico's prior agreements...so he "took action."

He openly demands that Mexico either take steps to act, or face tariffs until they do. They decided to act, he then reversed on the tariffs.

FRAMING is the key, and the Left always tries to frame his actions in the worst light possible.
 
JMR said:
I am not "qualified" but I do read a bit about the subject.

How the world sees the U.S. and Trump in 9 charts | Pew Research Center

Rating World Leaders: 2019 Report | Gallup.com

World Leaders Like to Flatter Trump. It Never Works. - The Atlantic
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Well, since the rest of the world get's their news about the USA much like most Americans, from our news agencies and sharing via AP, UP, and other connections...I am not surprised that negative press would create a negative impression.

Of course I will admit that Trump's tougher stance on E.U. participation in paying their agreed-upon share of NATO costs (in the form of their own GDP percentages in military spending), and his push for fairer trade in Europe too...that would cause some waves.

But "America First" is just as valid a position as their ideologies IMHO. :coffeepap:
 
Cardinal said:
And what will the world do if he wins a second term? I can see everybody holding out for four years; but eight?
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Chris Matthews as been saying it for two years, "they're like the Romanoff family". Yes, another 4 years would put this country down the tubes and I doubt we'll see any revival of a democracy for a very long time, well after he's gone. He'll proclaim himself 'president for life'.
 
Captain Adverse said:
This is the problem with the OP's citation AND the way the Anti-Trump elements look at these issues.

Mexico had agreed to take actions Trump was citing "months ago" and yet did not. Trump got fed up with recent border crossing numbers occurring despite Mexico's prior agreements...so he "took action."

He openly demands that Mexico either take steps to act, or face tariffs until they do. They decided to act, he then reversed on the tariffs.

FRAMING is the key, and the Left always tries to frame his actions in the worst light possible.
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Create chaos for us, then save us from the chaos that he created. In addition to his NPD, Trump also has HPD, Histrionic Personality Disorder. He's absolutely a textbook case of each.
 
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