Many demand PENN University president resign after refusing to say students supporting Jewish genocide violate code of conduct

[eman623]

Speech codes at universities like Penn and Harvard don't ban "hate speech" so much as they ban speech that bullies, threatens, intimidates or harasses other students.

A student could not, for example, call for the death of a Jewish student by name, as in "I think that Jew Jacob Cohen guy over there should be killed!" if it makes Jacob feel bullied, threatened, or harassed (and how could it not?)

Nether could you hold up a poster of all Jewish students at these schools and call for them all to die. If anything that would be even worse!

So how is it acceptable under the speech code to call for the deaths of all Jews everywhere? Wouldn't that by definition include Jewish students at the school? Is it because you did not specifically name anyone?

I don't think so. I think the Jewish students would still feel threatened, bullied, etc. and you would have violated the code.

If you called for a genocide on all trans people everywhere, I think you'd be kicked out of Harvard or Penn the same day. If that is the rule, then it should apply evenly to all protected groups (which includes Jews).

 

[j brown's body]

Speech codes at universities like Penn and Harvard don't ban "hate speech" so much as they ban speech that "bullies, threatens, intimidates or harasses" other students.

A student could not, for example, call for the death of a Jewish student by name, as in "I think that Jew Jacob Cohen guy over there should be killed!" if it makes Jacob feel bullied, threatened, or harassed (and how could it not?)

Nether could you hold up a poster of all Jewish students at these schools and call for them all to die. If anything that would be even worse!

So how is it acceptable under the speech code to call for the deaths of all Jews everywhere? Wouldn't that by definition include Jewish students at the school? Is it because you did not specifically name anyone?

I don't think so. I think the Jewish students would still feel threatened, bullied, etc. and you would have violated the code.

If you called for a genocide on all trans people everywhere, I think you'd be kicked out of Harvard or Penn the same day. If that is the rule, then it should apply evenly to all protected groups (which includes Jews).

That seems to be the argument. For instance, it was said that if someone sent an email to a Jewish student saying that all Jews should be destroyed, that would cross the line.

 

[eman623]

You gotta love the headline, "Many demand PENN University president resign after refusing to say students supporting Jewish genocide violate code of conduct".

If a Republican is accused of rape, the Times headline will be, "Republican accused of rape".

But if a Democrat is accused of rape, it will be, "Republicans accuse Democrat of rape".

Say what you like about the left, but they do have their narrative down pat.

 

[ColdHardTruth]

Should students who call for genocide be punished, or should the first amendment protect them?

The last time I checked threats of violence were not free speech.

 

[zincwarrior]

If you called for a genocide on all trans people everywhere, I think you'd be kicked out of Harvard or Penn the same day. If that is the rule, then it should apply evenly to all protected groups (which includes Jews).

Would be a good generic rule I would think - aka " calling for the genocide of 'X' people is naughty and does not comport with school principles and you will get right sorted."

Also, they need to assign more work. These kids clearly have too much time on their hands (shakes old man cane).

 

[soap box]

"Alumni, students and donors of the University of Pennsylvania called on Wednesday for Elizabeth Magill to resign as president of the school, a day after she testified at a contentious congressional hearing about campus antisemitism and evaded questions about whether students calling for the genocide of Jews violated Penn’s code of conduct.

The people raising questions about her leadership included Gov. Josh Shapiro of Pennsylvania, who said he found her statements “unacceptable.”

“It should not be hard to condemn genocide, genocide against Jews, genocide against anyone else,” Governor Shapiro said Wednesday in a meeting with reporters. “I’ve said many times, leaders have a responsibility to speak and act with moral clarity, and Liz Magill failed to meet that simple test.”
“There should be no nuance to that — she needed to give a one-word answer,” he added.

Link

Should students be punished for saying such an abhorrent thing, or should the First Amendment protect them? I'm included to support the First Amendment.

I heard part of her answer yesterday on the radio, she said the students have a right to free speech but that doesn't include taking action. She stipulates that the action is illegal, but the speech is protected. I tend to agree.

 

[eman623]

Would be a good generic rule I would think - aka " calling for the genocide of 'X' people is naughty and does not comport with school principles and you will get right sorted."

How about, "I think all child rapists should be executed." I'm calling for a genocide of sorts but it's based on behavior, not identity.

Also, they need to assign more work. These kids clearly have too much time on their hands (shakes old man cane).

I'll tell them to stay off your lawn too!

 

[zincwarrior]

How about, "I think all child rapists should be executed." I'm calling for a genocide of sorts but it's based on behavior, not identity.

No because thats advocating against a criminal activity. I will admit I neve had these kind of protests on campus. It must be an Ivy League thing.

I'll tell them to stay off your lawn too!

Good idea. The squirrels that live in the oak trees in the front will drop acorns and bark/hiss at you. Meanies.

 

[reinaert]

Replace Jews with Blacks. Will your decision be the same?

I think that Randy Weaver was a racist and a Jew-hater who had every right and liberty to say racist and antisemitic garbage, and ought to have been protected in the exercise of the same.

I think we have gone into a death-grapple spiral of competing intolerances in part because the Feds botched Ruby Ridge.

 

[zincwarrior]

Watched the whole thing. Wow those university presidents fracked up completely, especially the Harvard one. Wooeee, and I support FIRE.

 

[holbritter]

I think that Randy Weaver was a racist and a Jew-hater who had every right and liberty to say racist and antisemitic garbage, and ought to have been protected in the exercise of the same.

I think we have gone into a death-grapple spiral of competing intolerances in part because the Feds botched Ruby Ridge.

Uhm, ok.

 

[reinaert]

Uhm, ok.

It is a non-hypothetical, in response to your too-broad hypothetical.

This country isn't going to heal by policing speech. It has a chance to at least stabilize if we start incentivizing tolerance. Not acceptance. Not protection. Not safety, or epistemically sealed bubbles. Toleration, including stupid, racist speech.

 

[holbritter]

It is a non-hypothetical, in response to your too-broad hypothetical.

This country isn't going to heal by policing speech. It has a chance to at least stabilize if we start incentivizing tolerance. Not acceptance. Not protection. Not safety, or epistemically sealed bubbles. Toleration, including stupid, racist speech.

I was asking a question directly to the poster. No hypothetical involved.

 

[j brown's body]

I heard part of her answer yesterday on the radio, she said the students have a right to free speech but that doesn't include taking action. She stipulates that the action is illegal, but the speech is protected. I tend to agree.

Looks like there is a growing backlash to free speech. As Michelle Goldberg has pointed out:

"its when people are legitimately scared and outraged that we’re most vulnerable to a repressive response leading to harmful unintended consequences. "

 

[Luce]

"Alumni, students and donors of the University of Pennsylvania called on Wednesday for Elizabeth Magill to resign as president of the school, a day after she testified at a contentious congressional hearing about campus antisemitism and evaded questions about whether students calling for the genocide of Jews violated Penn’s code of conduct.

The people raising questions about her leadership included Gov. Josh Shapiro of Pennsylvania, who said he found her statements “unacceptable.”

“It should not be hard to condemn genocide, genocide against Jews, genocide against anyone else,” Governor Shapiro said Wednesday in a meeting with reporters. “I’ve said many times, leaders have a responsibility to speak and act with moral clarity, and Liz Magill failed to meet that simple test.”
“There should be no nuance to that — she needed to give a one-word answer,” he added.

Link

Should students be punished for saying such an abhorrent thing, or should the First Amendment protect them? I'm included to support the First Amendment.

Needs firing.

 

[j brown's body]

Needs firing.

Why? Smacks of McCarthyism.

 

[Luce]

Why? Smacks of McCarthyism.

Smacks of a university president with either a wish to see a genocide on Jews, or the lack of moral courage to condemn such an activity.

And it's not the government that would be firing them.

 

[zincwarrior]

I think the issue that has been seized on the apparent hypocrisy in how those institutions treat offensive speech against other minorities and LGBTQ, and how they treat Israel/Jews.

I am not stating an opinion here on the topic. I did listen to the hearing but did not get information on how these events differ from other events or their policy. If the universities treat everything like UC does, thats one end and can be defended. Likewise if they are much more restrictive but apply it uniformly that should also be defensible, yes? But its the scenario that they treat this differently that is an issue, and I don't know if they do or don't.

 

[Luce]

I think the issue that has been seized on the apparent hypocrisy in how those institutions treat offensive speech against other minorities and LGBTQ, and how they treat Israel/Jews.

If someone says "I am not at all bigoted against all these groups, just that one group, then they can hardly expect any sort of credit for it.

 

[j brown's body]

Smacks of a university president with either a wish to see a genocide on Jews, or the lack of moral courage to condemn such an activity.

And it's not the government that would be firing them.

There is no indication that any of them wish to see genocide of the Jews. The Haravard president said it was vile.

They did not come to Congress to testify as to their personal views, which is basically pointless, but as the the policies of the schools.

 

[Luce]

There is no indication that any of them wish to see genocide of the Jews. The Haravard president said it was vile.

Then perhaps you should correct your opening post.

 

[Bum]

You cannot yell "fire" in a theater, but calling for genocide is acceptable?

What a twisted view of the 1st Amendment.

 

[bomberfox]

"Alumni, students and donors of the University of Pennsylvania called on Wednesday for Elizabeth Magill to resign as president of the school, a day after she testified at a contentious congressional hearing about campus antisemitism and evaded questions about whether students calling for the genocide of Jews violated Penn’s code of conduct.

The people raising questions about her leadership included Gov. Josh Shapiro of Pennsylvania, who said he found her statements “unacceptable.”

“It should not be hard to condemn genocide, genocide against Jews, genocide against anyone else,” Governor Shapiro said Wednesday in a meeting with reporters. “I’ve said many times, leaders have a responsibility to speak and act with moral clarity, and Liz Magill failed to meet that simple test.”
“There should be no nuance to that — she needed to give a one-word answer,” he added.

Link

Should students be punished for saying such an abhorrent thing, or should the First Amendment protect them? I'm included to support the First Amendment.

I support punishment for calls to genocide. Its time to close the loophole.

 

[bomberfox]

The last time I checked threats of violence were not free speech.

Current laws revolved around this are more specific, though i tend to disagree with the threshold

 

[bomberfox]

What a mess. Freedom of speech is like communism... it's a great idea on paper but it gets completely ****ed when you add people.

Endorsement or defense of genocide should absolutely be deemed unacceptable. But i do believe your 1st amendment says otherwise. Any constitution experts able to confirm?

It would have to be specifically targeted with specific acts and specific times. However this is a private university sooo it doesnt apply.