Legal Vs Illegal

[maxparrish]

I'm using the official statistic that has been agreed upon for decades. You're picking alternative statistics because the truth looks too good, and you can't admit a Black President fixed your boy Bush's mess.

So you misused one BLS statistic, and ignored many other BLS and economic statistics - this is not news. I don't give a hoot about 'a black President' or Bush (those persona seems to be your obsession) nor giving any President kudos when the economy recovers at the slowest rate in history. I present the statistics that provide insight to the nature of the recovery, and of employment.

Among those insights:

 

[maxparrish]

Pretty simple logic really. Why would someone commit a crime to benefit a foreigner when they can legally hire one of their fellow countrymen that wants the same job at the same price?

Your 'simple logic' is also glaringly simple-minded.

Lots of people will break a law (or skirt around it off the books) if labor costs are lower for hiring illegals AND if those "crimes" are rarely prosecuted. On the rare occasion that a business is caught, all of them have the "valid" excuse that they were unaware of fraudulent SSI numbers and other fake documents. And others pay cash
so as to preclude any record or legal requirements.

Really that's weird because virtually every respected economist on earth agrees with me, and not you.

What I find really weird is your willingness to regurgitate every "truthie" and popular shibboleth without investigation without being informed by the laws of economics OR the economic literature. First, there is NO disagreement that labor supply is affected by alternatives to the "wages" such as paid unemployment (e.g SSI disability or Welfare), barriers to entry, and wage rates. As in any labor supply curve, increase the wages in a market at you will obtain a larger pool of applicants.

And as for those "other economists", your unnamed and uncited support does not include the father of immigration economics, labor economist George Borjas. As the leading labor economist on immigration, Borjas as clearly demonstrated, immigration of the unskilled or semi-skilled do not result in any per capita economic gain (and that is BEFORE one considers externality and public costs).

If you think that ALL immigration is a net good to the domestic population then you need to start doing some reading.

So why don't you just legalize all these immigrants so they can earn a legitimate living and be subject to all the same wage laws that citizens are? ...Oh, I see so we're all supposed to pay astronomical prices for our fruit because a bunch of dumb white guys didn't feel like getting good enough grades to get a real job?

As explained repeatedly, you should support policies that support the liberty, security, and well-being the American people, not spittal on us over yourself having to pay a few cents more for your prunes (will ranting over dumb white guys). There is no doubt that immigration (legal and illegal) benefits some employers and those that immigrate, and that it lowers American wage rates is several sectors of the economy (about 5 percent per year) and has major costs to the American people. There is also no doubt that ONLY highly skilled immigrant labor produces more in social economic surplus than the labor consumes in their wages. And it is also equally clear that immigration contributes to the costs of crime, welfare, pollution, education, etc.

Why is it that the same people who seem to think we don't need a minimum wage are always complaining about competition from brown people driving down their salary?

In part, because minimum wage reduces available employment to all workers and puts more native folks on the public doles...a problem mitigated by limiting immigration.

You ought to be asking "why is it" that the same people who think a higher minimum wage, while expanding the labor pool, won't cause a double dose of harms; more foreign workers diluting opportunity and fewer jobs available.

Which according to Republican Supply siders would drive down the cost of goods, and make it possible for people to afford more goods on lower wages thereby creating jobs. Who's side are you on anyway?

As I am not a Republican supply sider, I won't speak for this "person". However, the netgeneral benefit for paying a fraction less for all prune eaters is offset by the SPECIFIC impact of harm to a subset of American workers, taxpayers, and residents.

Yeah, what would farmers know about farming anyway.</sarcasm> These farmers have the experience to make good educated guesses on this topic. You don't. You're right about one thing though there are entire hills of beans that didn't get harvested this year because Trump supporters are morons.

A tiny poll of a county wherein the respondent has an interest to exaggerate is always suspect. A farmer will also tell you he has to have all those farm subsidies and price supports as well. What they know about farming is quite irrelevant compared to what they know about the advantage of cheap labor and government subsidies.

I should know, I used to survey companies for their supply needs from our agencies. As one might expect, the "sky of falling" always produced guesses several times that of actual consumption.

 

[jaeger19]

Dont want to quote all the above....

This goes back to Perpetuation...... we have rooted our own problem.

1) Americans and American Society, finds low skilled low wage positions beneath them. This is reality, by unemployment, Calls for $15 minimum wage from etc.... its ridiculous. We enabled undocumented workers to pick up the slack. because Americans that dont want to work for $7.25. (Truth) And when undocumented people that were getting paid $1 a day are offered a couple of dollars an HOUR, they Are MORE than happy to do that. Why? Because they dont feel entitled , they dont feel the work is beneath them and they are just happy to get something.

2) The American Business is Hurting, due to this bottom line, The lack of low skilled applicants as "teens" and low skilled works still demand higher pay that does not QUANTIFY the positions. Or College Students coming out EXPECTING $50,000 a year + benefits. There are 3 positions to any business. Entry level, Class Workers and Management. Everyone one wants to START at class or Management and many think just because they have a Degree they DESERVE the Management. You CANT manage something without entry level workers.....

3) Because there is no American Willing to take entry level work. THIS WORK STILL NEEDS TO BE DONE. Look no further than those either desperate (illegal immigrants) without Government support (Welfare, Section 8, Unemployment etc) WILL to do what they gotta do.



WE created this MONSTER. Until we are ready to address the UNDERLYING reason..... Then this emotional need to separate Immigrants from Illegal Immigrants will always be here.


Again my Feeling is LETS address JUST the ILLEGAL's NOT the Legal Migrants that are going through the process.


If you are Illegal why did you NOT take steps to register. DACA (first word DEFERRED action for Childhood Arrivals) meaning temporary. TPS El Salvador (TEMPORARY STATUS) These were all temporary NOT permanent, So why do any of these people think it not fair that they are at risk. They KNEW they were are risk once they accepted DACA/TPS status????

Just to point out..
As far as DACA.. they had no real choice but to accept DACA status. They did not choose to come to this country.. they were brought here by their parents. For them. .this is the country they know.. this is where they were brought up.. this is where they were educated or are being educated.

As far as TPS: these are folks that may have come to this country 18 years ago.. they have businesses, they have loans for education, they have mortgages etc. In fact in some areas... this will disrupt local economies pretty significantly.

 

[Exactice]

Just to point out..
As far as DACA.. they had no real choice but to accept DACA status. They did not choose to come to this country.. they were brought here by their parents. For them. .this is the country they know.. this is where they were brought up.. this is where they were educated or are being educated.

As far as TPS: these are folks that may have come to this country 18 years ago.. they have businesses, they have loans for education, they have mortgages etc. In fact in some areas... this will disrupt local economies pretty significantly.

I get it, but yet again, These were temporary. DACA actually had a choice, they could report or stay in the shadows. They chose to report in hopes that there was some type of resolution in their favor. Unfortunately it was a coin flip.

Same with TPS (Temporary Protected Status) Temporary.


Again if my Wife's Visa is Temporary, she has 2 choices, re apply. Or Apply for Citizenship? Or she can hide in the shadows as well fly under the radar and hope she gets free Amnesty 1,5,10,20 years from now?

800,000 People are you telling me ALL of them are contributing to Society and NOT one OF THEM TRIED TO Continue their OWN correct legal path to citizenship?

250,000 El Salvadorians are contributing and not one of them tried to continue their path to citizenship if they LOVED america so much?


1,050,000 Temporary Immigrants, did not go through the process of getting Visa's???? Thats the point.... so they got a temporary pass so that means NOT to do anything? And when these temporary statuses expire. scream up in arms that its not fair?

This is NOT even discussing the Loopholes of Chain migration and the 11million OTHER considerable Illegal Immigrants. Is the Hearts and Minds of just these 1million..........

 

[jaeger19]

I get it, but yet again, These were temporary. DACA actually had a choice, they could report or stay in the shadows. They chose to report in hopes that there was some type of resolution in their favor. Unfortunately it was a coin flip.

Same with TPS (Temporary Protected Status) Temporary.


Again if my Wife's Visa is Temporary, she has 2 choices, re apply. Or Apply for Citizenship? Or she can hide in the shadows as well fly under the radar and hope she gets free Amnesty 1,5,10,20 years from now?

800,000 People are you telling me ALL of them are contributing to Society and NOT one OF THEM TRIED TO Continue their OWN correct legal path to citizenship?

250,000 El Salvadorians are contributing and not one of them tried to continue their path to citizenship if they LOVED america so much?


1,050,000 Temporary Immigrants, did not go through the process of getting Visa's???? Thats the point.... so they got a temporary pass so that means NOT to do anything? And when these temporary statuses expire. scream up in arms that its not fair?

This is NOT even discussing the Loopholes of Chain migration and the 11million OTHER considerable Illegal Immigrants. Is the Hearts and Minds of just these 1million..........

Okay.. wait.. right their..

DACA.. had a "choice".. they could report.. or they could stay in the shadows.... so the children brought here by their parents. that might not have KNOWN that they were not US citizens until they were much older.. (did your parents ever discuss your citizenship with you?)..

they decide to do the right thing and follow us law and report.. the same with TPS.. and after years and years of living in the US, paying taxes (which you do when you report), being educated.. etc... then you get told to get out.. and they can enforce it because you reported.. you did the right thing.

Again if my Wife's Visa is Temporary, she has 2 choices, re apply. Or Apply for Citizenship? Or she can hide in the shadows as well fly under the radar and hope she gets free Amnesty 1,5,10,20 years from now?

that's right.. she can reapply or APPLY FOR CITIZENSHIP. something that was not feasible for the DACA.. or the TPS.. unless they were either willing to leave their jobs, education, etc to go live in a country that they hardly ever knew in the Case of DACA.. or go back to a country where they may suffer severe consequences because of the turmoil etc in those countries.. You forget that rarely do these people have US citizens as relatives or spouses that can sponsor them for a green card.. so they have to leave and apply from their country of origin...

800,000 People are you telling me ALL of them are contributing to Society and NOT one OF THEM TRIED TO Continue their OWN correct legal path to citizenship?

250,000 El Salvadorians are contributing and not one of them tried to continue their path to citizenship if they LOVED america so much?

Because to do so meant they had to leave this country and go back to where they were from for perhaps years.. leave everything they had and go back to the same country that they FLED from because of political/ economic turmoil etc that's what happens when you don't have a sponsor that's either a company or a spouse or parent that's a citizen of the US. .

1,050,000 Temporary Immigrants, did not go through the process of getting Visa's???? Thats the point.... so they got a temporary pass so that means NOT to do anything? And when these temporary statuses expire. scream up in arms that its not fair

?

Right.. because the options were that they had to go back to the very country that they fled from.. and wait until they got approval.. which could take years up to 25 years for the slowest immigration. . Meanwhile, they are subject to the very conditions that they left.

 

[Exactice]

Okay.. wait.. right their..

DACA.. had a "choice".. they could report.. o....... Right when Bama Enacted DACA, the children had a choice to come forth and establish immunity of DACA, in hopes that they would gain ammnesity in the future. Many things were in limbo from the get go. The other option was NOT to get protection under DACA and remain an ILLEGAL immigrant without the protection and potential of future DACA rulings. All choice on the coin flip. Register with DACA has no bearing on the fact that the Parents illegally brought themselves and their children into this country. DACA was a generous handout provided by the previous president that was TEMPORARY.

they decide to do the right thing and follow ......YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY CORRECT! I cannot disagree with you. With that though. THESE were all Temporary afforded work visa and stay visa, NOT Permanent RESIDENCE, not PERMANENT Green Cards or citizenship. As you stated they DID the right thing and reported, CORRECT, The Did the right thing and payed taxes started jobs got educated. SO the next thing is IF YOU wanted to remain in the country did they NOT have the option to APPLY for a Green Card? one El Salvadorian was here since 2009 she could NOT apply? My wife applied in 2013 and got her Green Card in 2015, 2 years later.



that's right.. she can reapply or APPLY FOR CITIZENSHIP.......
You are correct again, As for feesible, respect fully, they were vicarious liable for the action of their parents in breaking the law. With that they got an opportunity to stay that expired. While being pro active, they could have taken many actions, TRIED to get married to an american, Applied for extended WORK VISA, work with immigration lawyers to adjust their status 2 years. It took 2 years for my wife to come here, we did work to make it happen. We did NOT just wait for the government. We took steps. Are these people taking the SAME STEPS TO GET extensions? OR did they are they hoping that a resolution will be given to them? As for sever consequences of turmoil in their country, We have refugee status for those that are in actual danger. Life is not fair we are the largest first world country.... there are hundreds of 3rd world countries, if we are so strong about letting these people in, what about those that CANNOT make it to our country what about them? What about others that are in WORSE situations. HOW do we get them here? Finally, As I stated before, WE HAVE a HUGE homeless problem.... Real American Citizens living under bridges, cardboard boxes......we cannot even take care of our own people, Yet we want to take care of others that are NOT even citizens?



Because to do so meant they had to leave this country and go back ...... . Understood, agreed. My wife HAD to go back to her home country....and wait 2 years till the Visa were all approved. Then we had to file for her Green card within 3 months or she would be deported. All actions that WE were responsible for. Its the LAW of the land.
Why can they circumvent it?

?

Right.. because the options were that they had to go ......

DACA, the Parents Fled, the Child had no choice, TPS for El Salvadorians, I need to educate a little better, but reading many have been in this country for 10+ years..... during this time it was NOT an option to apply for a green card during the TPS and naturalize??

Jaeger19 my friend I know we get into "spirited" debates, So in all fairness, this is just my first acknowledgement that I RESPECT your opinion =) OK see above in Red!



Continued. ......

Please dont get me wrong, I am not trying to trifle on peoples morals. Im tring to make sense as to why its acceptable. I do feel bad for their situations. I do wish for those that would be an asset to our nation an opportunity/pathway to citizenship. But my biggest issue.

800,000 DACA they are ALL contributing? They are also NOT abusing the loop holes like chain migration?

250,000 TPS, are they all contributing? Are the also NOT abusing the loop hole as well?

Lets just say this as well, of these 1.05million Deferred/Temporary Status in comparison to the actual Illegals 11 million..... they are ALL assets to the nation? so we should just let illegals all go?

 

[Exactice]

OK Quick Caveats

1) DACA https://www.uscis.gov/humanitarian/consideration-deferred-action-childhood-arrivals-daca - This is USCIS, PERIOD
On June 15, 2012, the Secretary of Homeland Security announced that certain people who came to the United States as children and meet several guidelines may request consideration of deferred action for a period of two years, subject to renewal. They are also eligible for work authorization. Deferred action is a use of prosecutorial discretion to defer removal action against an individual for a certain period of time. Deferred action does not provide lawful status.

Meaning, THAT Those knowingly are ILLEGALS.... again they are still Illegal without regards to morals/emotions etc... just plain and simple. USCIS say does not provide lawful status, and a period of 2 years "SUBJECT" to renewal. In other words they got 2 years to figure out what to do. move to Canada, Europe, Back to home town or figure out their legal immigration options.

They are NOT being hunted down, they are not being persecuted but offered 2 years, To figure things out.



2) TPS https://www.uscis.gov/humanitarian/temporary-protected-status There is a LOT to this.... But again its another GENEROUS offer by our nation, to extend TEMPORARY Stay in our country due to Civil war or natural disasters. Once the US deems the nation safe, we have the right to END the TEMPORARY Status. This is again NOT a HUNT down against immigrants.



THESE 2 examples SHOW the generosity of USA. But it does NOT mean Permanent Status. There is a LAWFUL way to OBTAIN permanent STATUS and that is through the PROPER immigration channels that are there.



Again Illegal vs Legal, Temporary vs permanent Status

If you are Illegal, why should you be provided a pathway to citizenship?

If you are provided a Temporary status due to unfortunate events. The events expire or resolve themselves why should you receive permanent status?

 

[jaeger19]

SO the next thing is IF YOU wanted to remain in the country did they NOT have the option to APPLY for a Green Card? one El Salvadorian was here since 2009 she could NOT apply? My wife applied in 2013 and got her Green Card in 2015, 2 years later.

Exactly.

No one who crosses the border into the U.S. illegally can apply for a green card, Conger says. First, they would have to apply for advanced parole, which allows them to leave the country and then try to re-enter through customs and inspection. “But there is no guarantee they will be allowed back in the U.S. once they leave, so this is a very risky option,” Conger says.

According to statute, anyone who has lived in the United States illegally for more than one year must wait 10 years before they can re-enter the country, even if they are already married to a U.S. citizen or have children who are U.S. citizens. If they have lived illegally in the United States between 180 and 365 days, they are barred from re-entry for three years.

A waiver may be issued if the visa applicant is the spouse or child of a U.S. citizen or the spouse or child of a legal permanent resident. But the visa applicant must also prove that being barred from the country would pose an “extreme hardship” on the spouse. Hardship to the immigrant or to the immigrant’s child is not a factor, even if the child is a U.S. citizen.

Almost Impossible for Dreamers to Obtain Citizenship - Covenant Companion : Covenant Companion

Yes.. your wife was able to apply for a green card. She was not taken into the country illegally. She had a spouse that was a citizen or work that could sponsor her. A dreamer or someone from say el salvadore.. in all likelihood doesn't have that option.

While being pro active, they could have taken many actions, TRIED to get married to an american, Applied for extended WORK VISA, work with immigration lawyers to adjust their status 2 years.

Okay.. lets get past the suggestion that DACA should commit fraud by marrying a us citizen to get a green card. None of those options are available under current law.

now.. lets think about what it means for a DACA to "go back". My sons friend is 16 and was brought here when he was 2. He only realized he was undocumented this year when he went to apply for a drivers license. He has lived here the vast majority of his life. He is a junior in high school with straight A's. He is educated in English. he does speaks Spanish.. mostly "field Spanish". He cannot read Spanish nor write Spanish.
So you have an expectation that this kid.. a minor.. find his way back to mexico.. where he knows no one.. where he speaks the language but can neither read nor write Spanish. Where he has no Mexican documentation... so that he cannot access their health system etc. And he is supposed to make a living and be able to apply to get back to the US?

Does that REALLY make sense to you? Do you see the HUGE difference between your wife and this 16 year old high school student?

Yet we want to take care of others that are NOT even citizens?

Except we are NOT taking care of them. They are here going to school... working, etc.. all "we" are doing is allowing them an opportunity to participate in the American economy.

Why can they circumvent it?

they can't.. they can't even apply like your wife did.

their only option is that at 16.. my sons friend has to spend 10 years in a country whose closest connection he has with it is when his mom makes tamales.

 

[Exactice]

Exactly.
Almost Impossible for Dreamers to Obtain Citizenship - Covenant Companion : Covenant Companion
First off lets address the underline issue. THE PARENTS of the child CHOSE to commit an ILLEGAL Act and put the child and FAMILY in Jeopardy. Like it or NOT, the choice WAS IN FACT MADE AND THE LAW WAS BROKEN. Ok got that out of the way. With that, when term like "Almost impossible for dreamers to obtain Citizenship" NO that is NOT true, There is NO different WAY a dream obtains citizenship like any other person APPLYING, My wife, H1B workers VISA etc your highlighted story shows exactly that, 4 options, Family sponsor, Employment Based Visa , Humanitarian, or Diversity Lottery. THIS IS HOW ANY Person applies for citizenship they NEED to get in line, like everyone else. JUST because they are a DREAMER/DACA they get a DIFFERENT PATHWAY? Are you not seeing how this does not make sense and how they are in FACT circumventing the system. WITH that we NOW enable a path for people to PURPOSELY circumvent our current immigration laws


Okay.. lets get past the sugg..... They DONT HAVE to commit fraud if they love someone truly I am NOT advising for them to get married for a Visa, None of those options are available? Your story listed 4 current Options THAT ALL IMMIGRANTS MUST APPLY FOR? WHY should Dreamers GET a different option? Because they were unknowingly brought in? THEIR PARENTS CHOSE THIS CHOICE FOR THEM and Created this Jeopardy.

now.. lets think about what it means for a DACA...... THIS IS THE CHOICE OF THE PARENTS, That they ultimately put on their CHILD. WHY should you FEEL responsible. Its like a person taking their child to a robbery in a car chase, they ram a police car and the police shoot not realizing the child was in the car and the child got shot. My point is TAKE responsibility for your actions and face the consequence. YES the CHILD just found out, YES the parents HID it from the child. YES The parents and child are illegal, they MUST face the crime and if they want to remain FOLLOW the Laws of the Land. Again This is PURELY the Difference between Illegal and Legal. I am discussing Has nothing to do about, Emotions. Im stating FACTS.. I really dont care if the were brought in 1 yrs old 15 yrs old speak English or dont. The Parent made this CHOICE to create this situation, there is NO ONE to blame but the PARENTS. SO why do "DACA"/Dreams get a different PATHWAY than any other legal immigrant that is APPLYING?

Does that REALLY make sense to you? Do you.......

YES THERE IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE. I DO SEE IT an KNOW IT, are you NOT seeing the difference? My wife did everything legally and WENT through all the proper process. The Dreamers/DACA are expecting a DIFFERENT Option JUST for them JUST because their Parents CHOSE to BREAK THE LAW. WHY should they get a different option? My WIFE broke no laws, came on a 3 month tourist visa to learn about America. I met her on a whim from a friend that introduced us. We created a friendship that ultimately turned into love. DACA where children that were NOT legal to begin with, likely used State and Federal Resources because their parents were illegals, and circumvent MORE LAWS and probably used assistance MORE than my WIFE ever has, SO Explain to me why I should NOT see them Different. And WHY should we provide a different option for them being naturalized, when there are hundreds of thousands of people CURRENTLY on list waiting for their applications JUST like my wife, Employment VISA, Legitimate HUMANITARIAN REASON, and the Diversity Lottery we already have in place, WHY do the Dreamers GET TO SKIP THE LINE?????? Explain to me???/

Except we are NOT taking care of them. They are here going to sc.... Can you show facts?
Not just one example, and are you sure about that? You sure there is NO subsidies we are providing to these Daca? OH wait ok Public school who is funding this? The American People, Prior to DACA these were Illegals?
Were they in fact paying taxes etc?.......probably not, What about health care, they were already applying for ACA prior to DACA? Yeah.... probably doing the same thing many others, going straight to ER, who is paying for that? American Tax Payers.

 

[Exactice]

Part 2

they can't.. they can't even ap....YES THEY CAN your OWN Story you put up STATES THEY CAN, THey JUST dont have a special LINE, just because they are dreamers

Conger says there are four paths to obtain a green card:

1. Family-Based Petition
2. Employment-Based Visa
3. Humanitarian Reasons
4. Diversity Lottery

Its there black and white, THEY JUST WANT THEIR OWN SPECIFIC EXCEPTION WHY????? Why do they deserve it when they BROKE the LAW?



their only option is that at....[/QUOTE]

So let me ask you this, A 16 yr old in China right now has family members here, Applied for a family based sponsor, has waited in CHINA for the last year, for their application to get through, The Sponors have also paid the fees and done the interview, The 16 yr old will now be pushed back or delayed because these 800,000 DACA recipients will get their path seperate, so delaying ALL the current applications. The 16 yr old Chinese child will be delayed possibly 1-2 more years after already waiting, paying and standing in lines....

Does that make sense? Also Chinese HAS NOT broken any laws but just sat in their destitute area...waiting to come to America, Now lets say, Haiti, Nigeria, Afghanistan, India...... all the people that HAVE been waiting to get in.....

 

[jaeger19]

Exactly.
Almost Impossible for Dreamers to Obtain Citizenship - Covenant Companion : Covenant Companion
First off lets address the underline issue. THE PARENTS of the child CHOSE to commit an ILLEGAL Act and put the child and FAMILY in Jeopardy. Like it or NOT, the choice WAS IN FACT MADE AND THE LAW WAS BROKEN. Ok got that out of the way. ]

Right.. the parents committed an illegal act.. which the minor child had no control over.

NO that is NOT true, There is NO different WAY a dream obtains citizenship like any other person APPLYING, My wife, H1B workers VISA etc your highlighted story shows exactly that, 4 options, Family sponsor, Employment Based Visa , Humanitarian, or Diversity Lottery. THIS IS HOW ANY Person applies for citizenship they NEED to get in line, like everyone else.

sorry.. but yes its true.

They are not "just like any other person".

You forget:

No one who crosses the border into the U.S. illegally can apply for a green card, Conger says. First, they would have to apply for advanced parole, which allows them to leave the country and then try to re-enter through customs and inspection. “But there is no guarantee they will be allowed back in the U.S. once they leave, so this is a very risky option,” Conger says.

According to statute, anyone who has lived in the United States illegally for more than one year must wait 10 years before they can re-enter the country, even if they are already married to a U.S. citizen or have children who are U.S. citizens

Was you WIFE brought here by her parents when she was a little child? Ooops.. she wasn't. but my son's friend WAS. no fault of his own... and now he cannot apply for a visa since he is here illegally. and since he has been here 14 of his 16 years.. he must 10 years before entering the country.

A condition your wife did not have.

I don't think you get that. DACA kids.. through no fault of their own.. have been living here illegally for more than a year.. which makes them ineligible to apply until conditions like waiting outside the country for 10 years are met.

THIS IS THE CHOICE OF THE PARENTS

That's right.. and you are holding the KIDS responsible.

Its like a person taking their child to a robbery in a car chase, they ram a police car and the police shoot not realizing the child was in the car and the child got shot.

No.. its like child running from the car and the police shooting the kids and saying.. "well.. its the parents fault for breaking the law".

My wife did everything legally and WENT through all the proper process

Right.. because she had a choice and was not brought to this country illegally.

Meanwhile the DACA kids had no such choice.. and get the worst consequence.

DACA where children that were NOT legal to begin with, likely used State and Federal Resources because their parents were illegals, and circumvent MORE LAWS and probably used assistance MORE than my WIFE ever has, SO Explain to me why I should NOT see them Different

Actually unlikely..

Can you show facts?

Sure.

Myth # 1: They don't pay taxes

Undocumented immigrants are already U.S. taxpayers.
Collectively, they paid an estimated $10.6 billion to state and local taxes in 2010, according to the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy (ITEP), a research organization that works on tax policy issues. Contributions varied by state. In Montana they contributed $2 million. In California, more than $2.2 billion. On average they pay about 6.4% of their income in state and local taxes, ITEP said.

Myth #3: They drain the system

Undocumented immigrants do not qualify for welfare, food stamps, Medicaid, and most other public benefits. Most of these programs require proof of legal immigration status and under the 1996 welfare law, even legal immigrants cannot receive these benefits until they have been in the United States for more than five years.

5 immigration myths debunked - Nov. 20, 2014

Sorry man.. but you are wrong.

 

[Exactice]

Right.. the parents committed an illegal act.. which the minor child had no control over.
And so the American Tax payers are no responsible for the child? So the parents are deported but the child is then allowed to stay? Or do we now allow the parents to stay because we allowed the child to stay..... Again Answer my questions, Direct Question, The minor had no control? The PARENT made the choice and FORCED on the child. Do these children Deserve a SEPARATE Avenue to all the other thousands of applicants already in the Que? WHY do they deserve a different option then those that have actually followed the LAW

You forget:

Was you WIFE brought here by her parents whe.........

A condition your wife did not have. Correct, I agree

I don't think you get that. .... Again as I stated, the parents put the child and Family relationship in jeapordy, so you want to use emotions to allow the child to say alone? or does that NOW include the parents as well? Does that NOT circumvent the law, enabling others to make the SAME choices to GET a FREE PASS?

That's right.. and you are holding the KIDS responsible. NO I am holding the PARENTS Responsible for putting the family at this RISK. the PARENTS CHOSE TO DO THE ILLEGAL ACTION thus vicariously the CHILD Suffers as WELL. WHY again do DACA deserve a "SEPARATE" Option than the THOUSANDS of current applicants? BY you saying that they had NO choice as they were children, is saying that ALL people that are applying now, the fastest way is to have a child Sneak them in the border and you can get amnesty without having to go through the proper immigration channels. This devalues the whole system and destroys what we have. I again am NO looking at this PC or Emotionally, I am looking at this logically and realistically.



No.. its like child running from the ... NO my example is that, The child is NOt running away and teh officer is NOT choosing to SHOOT the kid. The kid the byproduct of an illegal action. The innocent is caught in the crossfire by the Parents. The Officer, Government in NO way are deporting on purpose, intentional cruelly.
they are FOLLOW the Laws of the LAND.....enforcing the Laws of the Land. They dont want to intentionally hurt anyone, BUT the Parents of the CHILD already initiated it. PERIOD.

Right.. because.. Correct again I cant disagree. Again my premise to the topic is the difference between LAWFUL LEGAL immigration and UNLAWFUL ILLEGAL immigration, PER your story as you highlighted, you say the child is "Innocent" Yet, the Law states "Illegally" entering this country and they suffer the consequence. that is the inability to return and or leaving the country and GETTING IN LINE and applying like ever LAW abiding Immigrant before them.

Meanwhile the DACA ki.... Correct,... Yet again WHO is the responsible party? THE PARENTS, So the question again..... Do the parents get deported but the CHILD can stay. WHO Takes care of the CHILD? If the Child gets amnesty and citizenship does chain migration allow the Parents to Come back or Do the parents automatically get in as well due to DACA. again DO YOU NOT SEE THE RIGHTING ON THE WALL??







5 immigration myths debunked - Nov. 20, 2014

Sorry man.. but you are wrong. Im sure I am, very uneducated, but trying to learn, So I appreciate your patience and I appreciate you help me get a better understanding!

As for above, SORRY I cannot substantiate my claims, direcrtly without proper research so its not fair for me to comment. While I se you put up the Tax stats I know there was another stat that said something ike, $100billion in resources to Illegal immigration, $10billion in taxes collected, still leaving a NET Negative of $80billion. Let me get that stat for you.


Any ways we are getting way off course.

LEGAL vs ILLEGAL. Immigration.

DACA specific - Child Unknown, What is the right thing to do?

Give all 800,000 a path to citizenship. Is this ONLY for the Child? What happens to the Adults/Parents?

Once the Child is then a citizen are they allowed to sponsor or chain migrate remainders of the family?

Do the Parents ALSO get a free pass with the Child?


This in my opinion WILL NOT end good, there is NO good answer, but if we do NOT stop this now...... it is a Loop Hole that will be vastly abused. IT needs to STOP, if it means saying OK we will TAKE THE 800,000 But after this THIS IS IT, ITS done never happening again. Anyone else you KNOWINGLY Take the risk and you are out, I dont care if you are 1 years old or 31 years old?

 

[jaeger19]

As for above, SORRY I cannot substantiate my claims, direcrtly without proper research so its not fair for me to comment. While I se you put up the Tax stats I know there was another stat that said something ike, $100billion in resources to Illegal immigration, $10billion in taxes collected, still leaving a NET Negative of $80billion. Let me get that stat for you.

?

Well.. the facts are.. that if you are illegal.. you are ineligible for most all forms of welfare.

AND they do pay taxes.

Any ways we are getting way off course.

Not at all... you asked why DACA should be different than other immigrants and I pointed out why with facts.

Give all 800,000 a path to citizenship. Is this ONLY for the Child?

Yep. Just waive the having to leave for 10 years and allow then to have a green card or work visa so that they can work/ go to school/ pay taxes while they wait for the process.

Also do not count them in the "immigration" total so that they don't get "vaulted to the head of the line".

The parents? no special treatment accept for one possible caveat.. that's if their employer is willing to sponsor them otherwise . If they want to be citizens.. or get a work visa etc.. they can leave the country and to all the things just like the other immigrants.

Once the child is a citizen.. then they have all the rights of other citizens.. which is they can sponsor just like you or I can.

If you want to stop this.. the answer is not trying to deport this or even a stupid wall etc. Cuz at the end of the day.. illegals will still bring their children over the border to work because even if they ALWAYS are illegal and live in the shadows.. its better than being in Mexico or the their other country of origin.

If you want to truly stop illegal immigration.. its simple... enforce the laws on employers. If they cannot come here to get work, then they won't come here. Easy Peasy.

But I gosh darn guarantee this is not going to be a piece of any immigration bill. And that's because for the most part.. politicians and particularly the businesses that lobby them... WANT illegal immigration. Particularly ILLEGAL immigration.. because its beneficial to companies to have these people who are illegal that can undermine our wages laws etc.

 

[Exactice]

Well.. the facts are.. that if you are illegal.. you are ineligible for most all forms of welfare.

AND they do pay taxes.

Not at all... you asked why DACA should be different than other immigrants and I pointed out why with facts.

Yep. Just waive the having to leave for 10 years and allow then to have a green card or work visa so that they can work/ go to school/ pay taxes while they wait for the process.

Also do not count them in the "immigration" total so that they don't get "vaulted to the head of the line".

The parents? no special treatment accept for one possible caveat.. that's if their employer is willing to sponsor them otherwise . If they want to be citizens.. or get a work visa etc.. they can leave the country and to all the things just like the other immigrants.

Once the child is a citizen.. then they have all the rights of other citizens.. which is they can sponsor just like you or I can.

If you want to stop this.. the answer is not trying to deport this or even a stupid wall etc. Cuz at the end of the day.. illegals will still bring their children over the border to work because even if they ALWAYS are illegal and live in the shadows.. its better than being in Mexico or the their other country of origin.

If you want to truly stop illegal immigration.. its simple... enforce the laws on employers. If they cannot come here to get work, then they won't come here. Easy Peasy.

But I gosh darn guarantee this is not going to be a piece of any immigration bill. And that's because for the most part.. politicians and particularly the businesses that lobby them... WANT illegal immigration. Particularly ILLEGAL immigration.. because its beneficial to companies to have these people who are illegal that can undermine our wages laws etc.

First off Jaeger Thank you again for being patient with me and NOT getting so excited, I realize something so I appreciate it even more your patience!


With that here we go.

facts based on welfare, "Legally" they do not qualify, but they already know they are illegal immigrants, this does not stop them from using other forms or registration to obtain welfare services (Good example to play on the emotions, How did they Get into the MILITARY, USA.gov states, Must be a US Citizen or Green Card holder?). NOR does this stop the "ER services" that are highly abused (think California) Who pays for these? THE TAX payers like you and I....... Its subsidies that are abused, Legal or NOT this is Facts as well.

Sure they pay taxes, BUT not the same way you and I pay taxes. Do they file their W2 with SSN or 1099 with schedule C deductions etc? NO. They pay taxes through state taxes like everyone else. BUT the State income and Federal income tax is what subsidies the Health and Safety programs that are in the red/black because of the under funding and over abuse. So we can play the numbers game... but lets be realistic again.... are we taking in the proper amounts of "INCOME/Taxes" to properly and fairly fund the PUBLIC services? Not even close, BUT to also be fair its NOT just the illegals that are the ROOT problem the root problem is the WHOLE system but they are PART of it.


As for getting of course, sure we are discussing caveat =), Actually you have not answer my question, you have justified your opinion. Again my question is. as per the topic, Legal vs Illegal. Like it or not the child unknowing is still an Illegal Immigrant. WHY do they deserve a separate pathway in comparison to the standard immigration process. You have not give me a reason WHY DACA specific, only immigrants as a whole.


As for your DACA response. Waive the 10 years, OK I can agree with that, Give them a Green car or work Visa, Ok I can agree with that Yet again, remember these are temporary they need to reapply after a certain amount of time or apply for Citizenship and pass. "Go to School/pay taxes" Sure again if they pay taxes like we do, then sure they can be afforded the rights of public programs.

When the child becomes a citizen, they can be afford the rights of immigration? This I HIGHLY disagree, this WAS the intent and the LOOP hole that "ILLEGAL" immigrants strive for in the first place, again DEVALUING the whole system. To give birth of a child in America so the Child can be considered American would allow the chain migration. This goes to the Parents that INTENTIONALLY bring in their child to obtain DACA (or similar status) the child then gets amnesty, citizenship and chain migrates all family members.... This is a Huge No GO for me.

 

[Exactice]

Part 2

The Parents, Can you honestly tell me you are OK with NO special treatment? So if a child that was illegal brought in the country no earlier than 06/16/1981 meaning ages 36 and younger up to this point. I feel a "child 17 years or younger" is not able to sustain themselves, THE PARENTS are Deported, but the child is granted amnesty, WHO is taking care of the "Child" 17 years or younger while the Parents are deported? State funded programs yet again? A burden to the state? I agree NO special Treatment, But at this point, Allowing amensty for DACA is an emotional moral choice. So separating the parents especially from a YOUNGER child is against the "emotions and morals that people are arguing for"????


As for stopping "Illegal" immigration, Where does this stop, is DACA permanent? Because this is NOW a LOOPHOLE that everyone with the means to try, will try to sneak their children through the border......again devaluing the whole immigration system we have.

The wall is a wall is a wall... synthetic, physical, virtual....its still a wall... different subject =)


"Its better than being in Mexico" what about Afghanistan, Syria, Palestine, Africa, Those that do NOT live a boarder wall away..... so just because its convenient, we should give them a pass. I can see you reaching on emotions but if you want to reach on emotions why not be fair to ALL? What about Haitians, sure America is way better than MANY 3rd world countries, why dont we LET them ALL in? Taking out the fact that they can just walk across a border, if we allow Mexico to do it, WHY NOT any other country?


"Enforce laws employers" SURE, but what is the difference here, You want to enforce laws on employers BUT not enforce EXISTING laws for ILLEGAL crossing and Illegal Immigration? It seems you want to pick and choose what is convenient?

As for business, I agree...and I can see that.... I will not disagree at all... sure we need to Step up enforcement. But Is this NOT a way to HURT the Business, BY cracking down illegal immigration in the FIRST PLACE?



I have to say Jaeger, you are very consistent on emotional choices I will give you that..... going back to the innocent man shot by an LEO that was found NOT guilty.... to the DACA, many of your points are purely on EMOTION..... but again LAW has always been in place...... and you seem to go against ALL the laws or judgements? I just dont get that?

 

[jaeger19]

facts based on welfare, "Legally" they do not qualify, but they already know they are illegal immigrants, this does not stop them from using other forms or registration to obtain welfare services (Good example to play on the emotions, How did they Get into the MILITARY, USA.gov states, Must be a US Citizen or Green Card holder?). .

Actually yes.. it does stop them from "using other forms or registration.

As far as the military:

A non-citizen must meet certain requirements to be eligible to join the military. The must have an Alien Registration Receipt Card (stamped I-94 or I-551 Green card/INS Form 1-551) as well as a bona fide residence established with an established a record of the U.S. as their home. If the non-citizens comes from countries with a reputation of hostility towards the U.S, they may require a waiver. The federal government cannot petition on behalf of an illegal immigrant so that they can obtain legal status and be able to enlist in the military.
In order for an immigrant to join the United States military, they must first go through the immigration process of the USCIS (previously known as the INS) and then and then begin the enlisting process. Another requirement is that the Green Card and/or visa of the immigrant desiring to join the military must be valid for the entire period of their enlistment.
Undocumented immigrants may not enlist in the U.S. military.

NOR does this stop the "ER services" that are highly abused (think California)

\

ER services are generally not abused by illegal immigrants. The reason is that for the most part.. illegal immigrants are healthy... they have to be to work in the jobs that they do. They are here to work.. Grandma is not wheeling herself across the Rio Grande.

NOT this is Facts as well.

m but its not really fact.. as see above.

BUT the State income and Federal income tax is what subsidies the Health and Safety programs that are in the red/black because of the under funding and over abuse

Yeah.. not really.. when you go into the ER and are uninsured and cannot pay your bill.. everyone with insurance pays a bit more.

Illegal immigrants in general are very minute part of that because again.. they are here to work.. .

WHY do they deserve a separate pathway in comparison to the standard immigration process. You have not give me a reason WHY DACA specific, only immigrants as a whole.

Sure I did.. because DACA are kids that came here through no action on their own. Its not their fault they are illegal immigrants. And making them have to pay for the actions of their parents does not seem just.. especially when you consider that many of them are basically as "American" as you and I and maybe are more "American" than your wife.

When the child becomes a citizen, they can be afford the rights of immigration? This I HIGHLY disagree, this WAS the intent and the LOOP hole that "ILLEGAL" immigrants strive for in the first place, again DEVALUING the whole system. To give birth of a child in America so the Child can be considered American would allow the chain migration. This goes to the Parents that INTENTIONALLY bring in their child to obtain DACA (or similar status) the child then gets amnesty, citizenship and chain migrates all family members.... This is a Huge No GO for me

.

Yeah.. I don't think you understand how the immigration system works.

but first.. so in other words.. when they become citizens.. they become second class citizens that do not have the rights of other citizens? Should your wife... not be able to sponsor her relative because she immigrated here? Despite being a citizen? Now you are creating two class of US citizens.

There is no loophole.. they become citizens.. they can sponsor their parents.. that will be subject... TO EXACTLY THE SAME LAWS... so they will have to go back to mexico etc to wait for 10 years of they have been hear longer than a year.. they will have to go through all the same hoops etc as anyone else according to the laws in place.

You seem to think that when the child gets citizenship.. that they can suddenly wave a magic wand and give citizenship to their parents, grandparents and cousins... sorry.. but like a lot of what you have posted.. this is based on erroneous information.

 

[jaeger19]

[

QUOTE=Exactice;1068068334]Part 2

The Parents, Can you honestly tell me you are OK with NO special treatment? So if a child that was illegal brought in the country no earlier than 06/16/1981 meaning ages 36 and younger up to this point. I feel a "child 17 years or younger" is not able to sustain themselves, THE PARENTS are Deported, but the child is granted amnesty, WHO is taking care of the "Child" 17 years or younger while the Parents are deported? /QUOTE]

Well that's pretty easy.. the parents can take the child back to mexico with them, just like any other immigrant can. OR they can arrange for the child who is a minor to stay with friends or relatives that are citizens. And the child still retains US citizenship...

Whats the problem?

As for stopping "Illegal" immigration, Where does this stop, is DACA permanent? Because this is NOW a LOOPHOLE that everyone with the means to try, will try to sneak their children through the border......again devaluing the whole immigration system we have.

Yeah.. you don't seem to realize the enormous intellectual disconnect you are making here. DACA.. was never a "loophole" that CAUSED illegal immigrants to sneak their children through the border. DACA came about BECAUSE THESE KIDS WERE ALREADY HERE.. and that's because illegals are bringing their kids and coming here to work.. because its far better than where they are from. They aren;t coming to gain citizenship.. they are coming for WORK.. and to make money. NOT because of DACA and not because of welfare..

If you want to address illegal immigration.. you have to address the reason that they come to America.. which is for employment.

I have to say Jaeger, you are very consistent on emotional choices I will give you that..... going back to the innocent man shot by an LEO that was found NOT guilty.... to the DACA, many of your points are purely on EMOTION..... but again LAW has always been in place...... and you seem to go against ALL the laws or judgements? I just dont get that?.

Sorry.. but its not based on emotion.. but based on facts. YOU are the one that seems to be based on emotion and not on facts.

You get all upset about the parents doing an illegal act... except the kids didn't have a choice.. but that fact seems to escape you.

You waxed rhapsodic about "why don't they apply for citizenship. green cards etc"... but you were completely ignorant of the law and how it affects DACA..

You waxed rhabsodic about welfare.. except the facts are that they are not eligible for welfare.

Nor are they eligible for military service if they are are an undocumented immigrant.

Justice is only as good as the reasons and people behind the laws..and the government needs to be held in check by the citizens of the country.. and to do that.. they need to evaluate the FACTS.. of the law.. and how its being applied by government.

.

 

[Exactice]

Jaeger, LOL these are getting long responses!

Lets just say this..... while we probably WONT see eye to eye, again I respect your opinion and your thoughts. My thoughts may be misguided due to ignorance and or lack there of knowledge and I can accept my inadequacies, I guess to be fair I want to make sense of things.

I see that you are a proponent for it. But to me the "Facts" are they are considered Illegal, regardless if they were brought in without a choice. This is HOW the law deems them as an Illegal.

Secondly, if they ere NOT considered Illegal there would not be a need for Deferred action (DACA).

To your point, MY apologies, you are right I am making terrible assumptions that you are Clarifying for me! I again appreciate it.

To be fair and to clarify my stance I do agree and better understand the process as you bring them to light. With that I am wrong in the thought that you are right, The parents do not Automatically get to come in! Gotcha. I guess I see it that they broke the law and use their child, child get citizenship and they still get to come in while breaking the law. I guess though they WOULD be held to the same immigrating standards.


Finally to your point about the parents vs children, I admire the point that you are willing to stick to your guns that the parents gotta go and the children gotta work it out. I "assume" you were one in all in! Sorry about that. While EVEN for me I dont feel that "splitting" up the children is a good thing, (honestly I would not WANT to see it myself) I would agree that the child if given the chance has a chance, the Parents Squandered it.....


How about... this.... instead of displaying my ignorance as again I admit my limited knowledge.... would you like to continue the discuss but rather, for fun more ideas on how to make Things WORK? I.E. DACA ideas/immigration Ideas?

 

[jaeger19]

Jaeger, LOL these are getting long responses!

Lets just say this..... while we probably WONT see eye to eye, again I respect your opinion and your thoughts. My thoughts may be misguided due to ignorance and or lack there of knowledge and I can accept my inadequacies, I guess to be fair I want to make sense of things.

I see that you are a proponent for it. But to me the "Facts" are they are considered Illegal, regardless if they were brought in without a choice. This is HOW the law deems them as an Illegal.

?

Exactly.. and that's the question that we as citizens need to decide.... IS it just to penalized a person for an action when they had no control over that action.

Most people don't believe that's justice. Perhaps you do.. perhaps you think that if a criminal steals your firearm,... and then commits a crime with it... then you are responsible.. because it was your firearm that he used.

I would argue that the firearm was taken, and therefore you had no control over that action.. and therefore should not be held responsible.

JUST as I would argue that the child was taken over the border and had no control over that action.. and therefore should not be held responsible.

How about... this.... instead of displaying my ignorance as again I admit my limited knowledge.... would you like to continue the discuss but rather, for fun more ideas on how to make Things WORK? I.E. DACA ideas/immigration Ideas?

Immigration is an easy fix... the solution is simply to enforce the laws on the employers. When there is no way to get work here if you are illegal.. then there will be no reason to come here illegally. Its rather simple.

And it would not take anything from congress. All Trump has to do.. is start doing spot checks on employers (say in meat packing and hotels (fat chance of that one)... and make sure that employers have valid w-9's with valid numbers and identities.

He should be petitioning to get the records from social security of all the numbers that are being sent in and are duplicates.. and getting that cleared up.

And when employers are found violating the law.. hammer them with fines. Maybe a little jail time for the bosses. Take away the reason people come here illegally.. (to work) and stop them coming here.

BUT.. you are not going to see that.. because that would work. And that last thing.. especially MR trump.. who probably has a ton of illegals working in his hotels.. that business wants is to get rid of their cheap labor.

 

[Exactice]

Exactly.. and that's the question that we as citizens need to decide.... IS it just to penalized a person for an action when they had no control over that action.

Most people don't believe that's justice. Perhaps you do.. perhaps you think that if a criminal steals your firearm,... and then commits a crime with it... then you are responsible.. because it was your firearm that he used.

I would argue that the firearm was taken, and therefore you had no control over that action.. and therefore should not be held responsible.

JUST as I would argue that the child was taken over the border and had no control over that action.. and therefore should not be held responsible.




Immigration is an easy fix... the solution is simply to enforce the laws on the employers. When there is no way to get work here if you are illegal.. then there will be no reason to come here illegally. Its rather simple.

And it would not take anything from congress. All Trump has to do.. is start doing spot checks on employers (say in meat packing and hotels (fat chance of that one)... and make sure that employers have valid w-9's with valid numbers and identities.

He should be petitioning to get the records from social security of all the numbers that are being sent in and are duplicates.. and getting that cleared up.

And when employers are found violating the law.. hammer them with fines. Maybe a little jail time for the bosses. Take away the reason people come here illegally.. (to work) and stop them coming here.

BUT.. you are not going to see that.. because that would work. And that last thing.. especially MR trump.. who probably has a ton of illegals working in his hotels.. that business wants is to get rid of their cheap labor.

Great points!

OK so to your first one, If there is NO consequence, then WHAT stops parents from bringing in their CHILDREN with the INTENT to get them amnesty? Meaning, sure the child had no control but the parents that ARE in control KNOW that they can get their child amnesty. We need to STOP the person that is doing the action by NOT giving them a reason to commit the crime in the first place. SO SAYING that a child WILL NOT get amnesty would not give the parents an "Additional" reason to sneak their children through? Again Im not trying to penalize the child per say, I am trying to stop the crime being committed in the first place.


As for Firearm being stolen, Well we had a good discussion in the other thread =) there is negligence/prudent person, and there is those that are either extremely DUMB and should NOT own one. IF you took all steps to secure your items that any normal prudent person should take then NO you should NOT be responsible. But if you left your home unlocked, weapon un secured etc... then you SHOULD be help responsible on TOP of the fact that you should NEVER own a firearm again.


Same with the immigration, if the parents KNOWINGLY and the know bringing in their children, the child is innocent, should be given a chance, BUT THE Parents should NOT and Never should have a chance for citizenship.To include Chain migration from the child. They FORFEITED all rights when the intentionally violated the law. THE Child though I agree has a chance.


As for Immigration Fix.

1) Its NOT only those trying to get here for JOBS, so lets be realistic, if we had to cut a pie (bear with me for second) lets say 50% are truly here for work and the American Dream, 25% Drugs, 25% trouble makers.....

50% sure if they are being brought in ILLEGALLY for work.... it is what it is. But the remainder 50% are questionable, so WHILE I agree we enforce existing laws for work related violations... what about the rest, Gangs, Drugs, trouble making etc......


Finally....For DACA. thought

1) the 800,000 Kids that MEET immigration requirements? Sure lets give them a chance
2) FROM This point on, DACA and any similar event is NULL/VOID, in other words we should NOT give any more credence to parents that bring in their children. With this inplace, PARENTS will NOW be held FULLY responsible for their actions and the jeopardy they put their children in.
3) Parents that have children, that are approved from DACA/ Amnesty, forfeit their right to be citizens, but may apply through the normal immigration channels but only retain visa's or green cards. But no Citizenship.
4) The Children GET full rights if they become naturalized citizens, BUT again the PARENTS then forfeited their rights the moment the broke the law. So the children, can bring in other family members, but NOT those that actually broke immigration law.


thoughts?

 

[jaeger19]

Great points!

OK so to your first one, If there is NO consequence, then WHAT stops parents from bringing in their CHILDREN with the INTENT to get them amnesty? ?

Because if the parents cannot find work because they are illegal.. amnesty for their kids is a pretty moot point.

Face facts.. parents are coming here to work.. and not coming here to get amnesty for their children.

Same with the immigration, if the parents KNOWINGLY and the know bringing in their children, the child is innocent, should be given a chance, BUT THE Parents should NOT and Never should have a chance for citizenship.To include Chain migration from the child.

Yeah,.. and again.. you don't understand what chain migration is and IS NOT. Because the parents violated the law.. they have to leave the country and wait 10 years before even applying.. and then would have to wait as much as 20 years.. to get a visa. The Trump administration's version of "chain migration".. is pure bunk.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/11/us/politics/chain-migration-immigration-daca-factcheck.html

Its NOT only those trying to get here for JOBS, so lets be realistic, if we had to cut a pie (bear with me for second) lets say 50% are truly here for work and the American Dream, 25% Drugs, 25% trouble makers.....

No.. lets be realistic.. 95%-97% are here for jobs.. and 3% for whatever else.

FROM This point on, DACA and any similar event is NULL/VOID, in other words we should NOT give any more credence to parents that bring in their children. With this inplace, PARENTS will NOW be held FULLY responsible for their actions and the jeopardy they put their children in.

Only if we remove the job incentive for illegals to immigrate here and bring their children. Otherwise the Daca problem will continue. and its not justice to hold the children responsible for their parents actions.

Parents that have children, that are approved from DACA/ Amnesty, forfeit their right to be citizens,

they never had a right to be a citizen. they will have to go through the same process that's required by current law.. no more.. no less.

 

[Exactice]

Because if the parents cannot find work because they are illegal.. amnesty for their kids is a pretty moot point. The Funny part that you state, the majority of illegals that come in are for work, Which is truly tough to believe, I will need to do my research, but I think there was a recent census, 17% Work Visa, 42% chain migration, And this is LEGAL, so why legal migration of 17%
work issued visa's, And You cant tell me because they dont issue the visa's?

Face facts.. parents are coming here to work.. and not coming here to get amnesty for their children. Again debatable points, that I dont know if factually true. Which I personally dont think are facts and are OPINION only.



Yeah,.. and again.. you don't understand what chain migration is and IS NOT. Because the parents violated the law.. they have to leave the country and wait 10 years before even applying.. and then would have to wait as much as 20 years.. to get a visa. The Trump administration's version of "chain migration".. is pure bunk. What about brothers, Sisters, Aunties, Uncles, Grandmas and Grandpas..... The immigration NUMBERS by Chain migration is ATRSONOMICAL.

https://cis.org/Report/Immigration-Multipliers

Key Findings:

Over the last 35 years, chain migration has greatly exceeded new immigration. Out of 33 million immigrants admitted to the United States from 1981 to 2016, about 20 million were chain migration immigrants (61 percent).
Approximately 1.2 million legal immigrants were approved for admission in 2016, which is about 13 percent higher than 2015, and one of the highest numbers in the last decade.
The largest categories of chain migration are spouses and parents of naturalized U.S. citizens because admissions in these categories are unlimited by law."


https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/11/us/politics/chain-migration-immigration-daca-factcheck.html



No.. lets be realistic.. 95%-97% are here for jobs.. and 3% for whatever else. I want to know where you are getting these Numbers...... I mean you kinda just poked huge holes in your own statement discussing DACA, 800,000 DACA recepients that ARE illegal are not looking for jobs, so that means 95-97% of illegals are NOT looking for jobs. That does not even make sense. WE have JOB VISA and we have lots of JOB Visas 17% of which are used....... So you cant justify 95-97% of illegals are looking for JOBS Again Chain migration PER STATISTICS made up of 61% of all immigration since 1981



Only if we remove the job incentive for illegals to immigrate here and bring their children. Otherwise the Daca problem will continue. and its not justice to hold the children responsible for their parents actions.
I agree JOBS are PART of it, its NOT the only reason in my Opinion, BUT I can agree... Job incentive for low wage is an issue. The DACA issue is Amnesty for the children. This is the "Willy Wonka"
Golden ticket... THAT PEOPLE WANT, not only for work, likely they will do all they can.... and again the PARENTS are USING their children as a tool, HERE is really messed up HONEST Situation that I have lived in.
While deployed, a (local national) gave their innocent child a Grenade, to throw in one of our trucks. What did we have to do? Let the kid do it because they are kid and cause collateral damage or even kill one of us? Or defend our selves for the sake of survival. THIS IS REALITY while not a perfect example, PARENTS Exploit their CHILDREN with the INTENT that American's have morals and would NOT dump a kid on the street. Sure the KID is innocent but the intent is there by the parent to exploit our good nature. I am sorry you dont see this reality.



they never had a right to be a citizen. they will have to go through the same process that's required by current law.. no more.. no less.

You are right they never had a right, But the Immigration Nucleus is there..... Brothers, sister, aunties, uncles... this is all a plan to allow one in so they CAN chain migrate, again Statistics SHOW 33 million immigrants 20 million CHAIN migrations 61% this is FACT.... not 95-97% jobs........

 

[jaeger19]

The Funny part that you state, the majority of illegals that come in are for work, Which is truly tough to believe, I will need to do my research, but I think there was a recent census, 17% Work Visa, 42% chain migration, And this is LEGAL, so why legal migration of 17%
work issued visa's, And You cant tell me because they dont issue the visa's?

You just don't want to deal with facts... they are here for work.

Harvard economics and social policy professor George Borjas found, are more likely to work than legal immigrants, and even more likely to work than American men in general. They also are willing to work regardless of what they get paid, he said, calling this segment of the labor force “perfectly inelastic.”
Back in the mid-’90s, the employment rate among native-born American men, legal and illegal immigrants was roughly equal. In the ensuing years, though, there’s been a falloff in the employment rate of native-born men, and an increase in employment by illegal immigrants. In a labor force snapshot from 2012-2013, Borjas found that about 87% of male illegal immigrants worked, compared to 74% of American men. Even after controlling for the fact that this immigrant population was likely to be made up of younger men, he still found a 10-percentage-point difference between the two groups.

Illegal Immigrant Men Work at a Higher Rate Than Americans | Money

What about brothers, Sisters, Aunties, Uncles, Grandmas and Grandpas..... The immigration NUMBERS by Chain migration is ATRSONOMICAL.

And as my article shows.. the facts are that its bunk.

Over the last 35 years, chain migration has greatly exceeded new immigration. Out of 33 million immigrants admitted to the United States from 1981 to 2016, about 20 million were chain migration immigrants (61 percent).
Approximately 1.2 million legal immigrants were approved for admission in 2016, which is about 13 percent higher than 2015, and one of the highest numbers in the last decade.
The largest categories of chain migration are spouses and parents of naturalized U.S. citizens because admissions in these categories are unlimited by law."

Yep..perhaps because you are more likely to come to a country that you have relatives living in.. where you have more support? Sheesh.

You realize your "key findings". has nothing to do with illegal immigrants right.. nor the AMOUNT that a person can actually bring in even legally. nor how long it takes.

THIS IS REALITY while not a perfect example, PARENTS Exploit their CHILDREN with the INTENT that American's have morals and would NOT dump a kid on the street. Sure the KID is innocent but the intent is there by the parent to exploit our good nature. I am sorry you dont see this reality.

Wait.. I don't see reality?

You just compared a terrorist/insurgent using a kid to throw a grenade... with my son's friend whose parents came to this country and brought him illegally.. both parents work.. he works, he gets good grades and he would likely qualify for college.. he is not exploiting anything.

If you can't see the difference between DACA and a insurgent using a kid to throw a grenade... well...... :doh

 

[Exactice]

You just don't want to deal with facts... they are here for work.



Illegal Immigrant Men Work at a Higher Rate Than Americans | Money



And as my article shows.. the facts are that its bunk.



Yep..perhaps because you are more likely to come to a country that you have relatives living in.. where you have more support? Sheesh.

You realize your "key findings". has nothing to do with illegal immigrants right.. nor the AMOUNT that a person can actually bring in even legally. nor how long it takes.



Wait.. I don't see reality?

You just compared a terrorist/insurgent using a kid to throw a grenade... with my son's friend whose parents came to this country and brought him illegally.. both parents work.. he works, he gets good grades and he would likely qualify for college.. he is not exploiting anything.

If you can't see the difference between DACA and a insurgent using a kid to throw a grenade... well...... :doh

Sorry still waiting on facts... that they are here for work, I have only read opinions, I have shown you statistical fact of breakouts for visa's.

As for Immigrants I 100% agree that they work harder than Americans. I have said this multiple times in the beginning of this thread and many other thread. The core problem is our society. WE ARE LAZY, low wage, low skill jobs are beneath us and Americans are unwilling, to go behind the counter to wash dishes and scrub floors. again I 100% agree, but this does not mean that just because they work hard they are Citizens automatically as well. I WILL say though that some YES...that DO prove them self to be a value to our country should have greater respect than many stupid lazy @$$ Americans! Dont get me wrong I am sure there are MANY hard working Illegals.

LOL this is NOT their country of Origin, LOL that is why its called "Migration" LOL......

Yes my finding is on LEGAL immigration....so Imagine what "illegal" immigration looks like... But also if you read the article it specifically states, those that have gained amnesty or citizenship through amnesty and used it as a means of chain immigration.


Yes My example I admit was far fetched.... But again if you dont see the point, the PARENTS use the child as a tool. Your example.... is your fact I cannot disagree with you, your childs friends is BUT one example. Can you surely state that all 800,000 other DACA are EXACTLY like your son's friend?


If you do not see the exploitation, then I am sorry I guess we will never see eye to eye. I understand you connection to 1 of these DACA people. Sure if we had to man power to review EACH and ever case.... BUT then the question is what makes one family better than the other... then the waters get muddy all over again..... With this situation it HAS to be black or white... there is NO in between. Illegal is Illegal. fix our situation enforce our laws (funny Trump is trying to, hes not enacting new ones just enforcing current laws and people lose their mind).......


Insurgent kid is no different from a DACA kid.......Both are negligent of their actions and they were told by their parents to do something, they just went with the flow. BOTH are detrimental to AMERICANS NOT equally detrimental, but again black and white.... but or incidentally committing crimes even though they probably did not know did not intend too...... sorry you dont see that.....

 

[jaeger19]

Sorry still waiting on facts... that they are here for work, I have only read opinions, I have shown you statistical fact of breakouts for visa's.

.....

stop right there.. I linked an article to facts regarding work.

And your.."visa"s.. has NOTHING to do with illegal immigration. Its absolutely irrelevant.

Yes my finding is on LEGAL immigration....so Imagine what "illegal" immigration looks like... But also if you read the article it specifically states, those that have gained amnesty or citizenship through amnesty and used it as a means of chain immigration.

Right.. which is a completely different animal from illegal immigration.

Yes My example I admit was far fetched.... But again if you dont see the point, the PARENTS use the child as a tool.

Whishkabibble.

So what? In your example of the kid with the grenade... would you go out and then kill all the kids because they COULD BE used as tools by the parents?

You want to punish the DACA kids because they "could be" used as a tool by the parents... and for what? Oh yeah.. "chain migration". And what a tool hey... with the law.. the parents would have to go back to mexico for 10 years.. then they could apply for a visa and wait another 7 to 20 years to get in.

Wow.. what a tool!!!! My you have it all figured out... these guys aren;t coming in to work.. they are brought their kids in illegally.. with the hope that 13 years from when they brought these kids in.. the kid will be granted amnesty.. and then.. the parents can go back to mexico as long as 30 years.. and finally get into America as citizens.

Wow..you have it all figured out.. :doh

Listen.. I have tried to be civil.. but you keep asking for "facts".. and I keep giving you articles, research.. actual immigration law.. .and yet you keep making the same assumptions regarding DACA.. and immigration.. that have been shown to be complete bunk.

Face it.. you are not interested in the facts...

You don't want Mexicans to immigrate here.. thats why brought up LEGAL immigration.. as your example.

you never had any interest in discussion...

And by the way.. trump is not enforcing the laws that will work.. he is only "enforcing laws".. on children that had no choice in the matter.

Seriously?..

Insurgent kid is no different from a DACA kid..

Yeah.. we will never see eye to eye if you want me or anyone with at least a lick of sense... to think that a kid throwing a grenade into a truck at the request of his parents... is exactly the same as a DACA kid.