Legal Vs Illegal

[jaeger19]

To the Moral degree, I agree... I guess... again my opinion... and my will does not see why, ALL should get amnesty.....
More so when we use 16 year old KID or DACA kids. its misleading when 30% are "Kids"......

Not at all.. its misleading to characterize them welfare recipients. That's misleading. DACA is made up of people who are.. or were... kids that were brought here when they had no choice of their own... and basically this is the only country they know.

Fair enough..... I still dont get why my term golden ticket is used so literal LOL HAHAAH But all good.. its just an example of term

.

Please.. you used it to entail that it was a free pass to citizenship..

As the job description states he enforces laws enacted by congress... to call him an A hole sorta shows your bias to Trump

Well.. Trump has earned the term..call it bias if you wish.

If again we treated them Like an illegal they would be deported.

Yep.. so what I said stands... they aren;t getting into the front of the line.. they just aren;t getting deported.. but the laws on them applying for citizenship are still in place.. which means they get punished and have to be out of the country for up to 10 years because of what their parents did.

Why do you feel like we are "punishing" them?

Because that's what it is.. when you force someone that has basically been raised as an American.. and kick them out into a country they don't know..

And you do it because of all the assumptions that you have made.. from how they are criminals, welfare recipients, and so on.

but whats the point of laws if we dont enforce right

Whats the point of having citizenship and a legislature, judges and an executive branch.. if laws that are unjust should not be changed.. because "laws MUST be enforced right".

If what you said were true.. then we should never ever change bad laws.. or get rid of bad laws.. because then there would be no point to ANY laws...

Somehow, I don't think you believe that.

Sorry... I know thats not the answer you want to here

Honestly.. based on all the erroneous assumptions that you made regarding immigration and who these people are.. and I expected nothing less.

 

[jaeger19]

Im confused by your example. an Illegal protected under DACA in american can apply for a visa. The same way as a NON citizen applying Outside of the US. an ILLEGAL NOT protected by DACA or DAPA will be barred.

A non citizen from another country, Libya, would apply for X visa? Why would they spend 10 years waiting for approval? Say they met an American citizen on Vacation fell in love and the USC (us citizen) sponsors the Libyan explain why they would wait for 10 years??

And illegal protected under DACA can apply for a visa.. IF they meet the legal requirements.. All of which are still in place. . ...

 

[jaeger19]

Im confused by your example. an Illegal protected under DACA in american can apply for a visa. The same way as a NON citizen applying Outside of the US. an ILLEGAL NOT protected by DACA or DAPA will be barred.

A non citizen from another country, Libya, would apply for X visa? Why would they spend 10 years waiting for approval? Say they met an American citizen on Vacation fell in love and the USC (us citizen) sponsors the Libyan explain why they would wait for 10 years??

No.. they would not be deported.. but they could not apply for citizenship until they had left the country for 10 years. that's existing law. So basically they are in limbo. They can stay.. but they can't become citizens until they will leave for that amount of time and then apply for citizenship. Immigration law is not changed.. according to the link I posted.. immigration rules for citizenship which means they have to wait up to 10 years outside the country..still apply to them.

 

[Exactice]

No.. they would not be deported.. but they could not apply for citizenship until they had left the country for 10 years. that's existing law. So basically they are in limbo. They can stay.. but they can't become citizens until they will leave for that amount of time and then apply for citizenship. Immigration law is not changed.. according to the link I posted.. immigration rules for citizenship which means they have to wait up to 10 years outside the country..still apply to them.

Sorry Must have missed something.

Your last 2 links,

1) Myth's/Facts of DACA. Funny though, I know you said Im a liar but in your first link shows the study. The original Chain migration numbers was estimated @ 4.2 multiplier, so 800k x 4.2 = 3.36million.... they then said this is including natural born citizens, so the direct number would be closer to 2.1 so 800k x 2.1 = 1.68 million 1.6x times the legal yearly immigration numbers Anyways... Sorry does not say anything specific about DACA recipients having to be barred 10 years. So they Can still legally pply?

2) Was 90% immigrants work, nothing again about DACA recipients being barred.


Sorry again can you confirm, A DACA recipient cannot go into an immigration office, apply legally for one of the 4 paths ways I listed as they will be denied and barred for 10 years? 70% of DACA is 21 years or older, so they could qualify for all 4 pathways. if they were applicable. I do not think they are barred, like a NON DACA recipient that is an actual non protected illegal alien?

 

[Exactice]

Here is more gray info

Green Card Adjustment for DACA Applicants - Immigration Law Offices of Hadley Bajramovic PCImmigration Law Offices of Hadley Bajramovic PC

Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA) is NOT an immigrant visa. It is an exercise of discretion by immigration services granting temporary legal presence and work authorization in the United States. Since DACA is not an immigrant visa, there is no option to directly adjust from a DACA status into Legal Permanent Residency (LPR) / Green Card. We agree on this

A DACA Recipient can apply for an immigrant visa if they have a Qualifying Relative (US Citizen or LPR/Green Card holder) that is willing to petition through the I-130, Petition for Alien Relative. There is NO bar or 3-10 year penalty

Immigrants who have years of unlawful (undocumented) presence in the United States (like many DACAs) are considered "inadmissible" and not eligible to apply for an immigrant visa without the penalty of being barred from the United States for 3 to 10 years. [*Note: if you became DACA approved before your 18th birthday, you will not accrue unlawful presence as long as you do not lapse in your DACA status]. here is your kicker, if they were trying to be lawful and did not lapse or break laws they CAN in fact still apply for adjustment for status without being barred

You are correct though per the above, if they have years of unlawful undocumented presence they are Barred, But there is a grey caveat pertaining to age. there is a second portion about being married to a US citizen but I wont bore you with it. Basically its Grey as well and says to go see a lawyer...but does not BAR them automatically. Also there is INS245(a) that CAN waive the unlawful presence, to allow the DACA recipients to apply for a VISA.

 

[Exactice]

Here is more gray info

Green Card Adjustment for DACA Applicants - Immigration Law Offices of Hadley Bajramovic PCImmigration Law Offices of Hadley Bajramovic PC

Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA) is NOT an immigrant visa. It is an exercise of discretion by immigration services granting temporary legal presence and work authorization in the United States. Since DACA is not an immigrant visa, there is no option to directly adjust from a DACA status into Legal Permanent Residency (LPR) / Green Card. We agree on this

A DACA Recipient can apply for an immigrant visa if they have a Qualifying Relative (US Citizen or LPR/Green Card holder) that is willing to petition through the I-130, Petition for Alien Relative. There is NO bar or 3-10 year penalty

Immigrants who have years of unlawful (undocumented) presence in the United States (like many DACAs) are considered "inadmissible" and not eligible to apply for an immigrant visa without the penalty of being barred from the United States for 3 to 10 years. [*Note: if you became DACA approved before your 18th birthday, you will not accrue unlawful presence as long as you do not lapse in your DACA status]. here is your kicker, if they were trying to be lawful and did not lapse or break laws they CAN in fact still apply for adjustment for status without being barred

You are correct though per the above, if they have years of unlawful undocumented presence they are Barred, But there is a grey caveat pertaining to age. there is a second portion about being married to a US citizen but I wont bore you with it. Basically its Grey as well and says to go see a lawyer...but does not BAR them automatically. Also there is INS245(a) that CAN waive the unlawful presence, to allow the DACA recipients to apply for a VISA.

LOL I am NOT even an illegal DACA recipient and I have been doing my share of HOMEWORK and research. All is NOT lost and they are not ALL in limbo, I am sure many of them have the stated options. As I said in the very beginning of this thread if there IS a WILL there IS a WAY!...... but people rather wait for "handouts" then do their homework or research.........

 

[MrShangles]

Exactly.



Almost Impossible for Dreamers to Obtain Citizenship - Covenant Companion : Covenant Companion

Yes.. your wife was able to apply for a green card. She was not taken into the country illegally. She had a spouse that was a citizen or work that could sponsor her. A dreamer or someone from say el salvadore.. in all likelihood doesn't have that option.



Okay.. lets get past the suggestion that DACA should commit fraud by marrying a us citizen to get a green card. None of those options are available under current law.

now.. lets think about what it means for a DACA to "go back". My sons friend is 16 and was brought here when he was 2. He only realized he was undocumented this year when he went to apply for a drivers license. He has lived here the vast majority of his life. He is a junior in high school with straight A's. He is educated in English. he does speaks Spanish.. mostly "field Spanish". He cannot read Spanish nor write Spanish.
So you have an expectation that this kid.. a minor.. find his way back to mexico.. where he knows no one.. where he speaks the language but can neither read nor write Spanish. Where he has no Mexican documentation... so that he cannot access their health system etc. And he is supposed to make a living and be able to apply to get back to the US?

Does that REALLY make sense to you? Do you see the HUGE difference between your wife and this 16 year old high school student?



Except we are NOT taking care of them. They are here going to school... working, etc.. all "we" are doing is allowing them an opportunity to participate in the American economy.



they can't.. they can't even apply like your wife did.

their only option is that at 16.. my sons friend has to spend 10 years in a country whose closest connection he has with it is when his mom makes tamales.

You say we aren’t taking care of them, who pays for them going to school , who pays their medical. They are here because of Obables unconstitutional EO.


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[Lovebug]

I hate to beat a dead horse.... but I was just watching something today about the Sanctuary cities....and it made me question,


When people TALK immigration, The Right Seems to harp specifically on "Illegal" immigration.

The Left never brings up Illegal Just Immigration period. Its like they disregard Illegal, Immigration is all the same?

Sorry hate throw it out there like that but thats what it seems like....

What I mean is, My wife came through immigration through a K1 visa, we have been happily married for 5 years now and 2 beautiful children. Things are going great and will continue so for many many many years to come.

But during the Visa process it was LONG, tenuous, cost a lot and we where separated for at least a year. We WENT THROUGH THE IMMIGRATION process...Paid thousands, did interviews and waited separated.


So why should 800,000+ Illegal immigrants, just DACA not including the 14million Illegals already here "Get" a pass?


I just dont get it. I am an American Citizen born and raised, I followed all laws, yet these people that KNOWINGLY committed a crime get a pass. More so the Chain Migration attached to it.... HOW and why does this work?

PLEASE justify this for me?

Seems you have more luck getting responses
https://www.debatepolitics.com/general-political-discussion/307320-legal-immigration.html

 

[jaeger19]

You say we aren’t taking care of them, who pays for them going to school , who pays their medical. They are here because of Obables unconstitutional EO.


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they or their family pays for them going to school and their medical.

 

[Exactice]

they or their family pays for them going to school and their medical.

While that makes sense can you substantiate this? If the Parents are illegal, likely they are doing cash jobs an NOT W2 or 1099 as they dont file taxes. Secondly. Public schools is public school funded by American TAX payers.... Finally... A child that goes to urgent care without Insurance, or ER, you are telling me they are able to afford the NON subsidies cost of medical treatment?

have you been to an Urgent care facility and paid out of POCKET expense? LOL they are not going to an Urgent care office they are either self medicating or going to the ER which again is subsidized by again whom? The AMERICAN TAX Payer.

But lets take 2 steps back here....


DACA is one, Illegal is another discussion, We tried to blend the 2.

Illegal is Illegal is Illegal (lets take DACA out for a moment) so if they are NOT DACA recipients. Then what? They are SUBJECT to immigration law as we stated, 3-10 year bans based on their duration of illegal stays, then they must re apply. 5 million,11 million, 20 million illegals. What ever the number is. They are utilizing public subsidized benefits.... lets NOT pretend this does NOT happen. Secondly they ARE illegal not protected by any type of TPS, DACA, DAPA etc... so they do NOT legally contribute to the actual infrastructure, OUT side of direct spending and STATE General Excise tax they pay on tangible items.

Now lets add DACA back in for a moment. They want amnesty...SURE ok lets do that... but its funny I just watched a news interview of a DACA recipient. She qualifies. But here is the funny kicker. She was brought in by her parents on a tourist visa and KNOWINGLY OVER STAYED here TOURIST VISA? SAY WHAT, this is NOT what I thought DACA to be. I am thinking a smuggled child, running from danger or terrible surroundings. NOT a person that took the time to file a visa and choose to over stay , then Get DACA and then ask for Amnesty. We need to Screen DACA and provide to those that ACTUALLY deserve it.

Secondly. DACA wants rights as an American citizen to sponsor their Parents. OK sure... But lets separate each, the PARENTS broke the Law, so the parents are subject to the law. The Child Cannot sponsor someone that broke the law. Sure they can sponsor someone else... but so sorry.... parents made their bed.. END of discussion, DONT like it go with the parents.....


Anyways... The more I read and research, the more I watch protest and discussion the more I realize that its actually worse than I thought, originally I had a heart...Jaeger your example of a 16 year old made me have a heart, But if I dove into that specific case and it was exactly like you state, parents are here for work, Parents way for child schooling and medical, Child was smuggled in. SURE lets give them amnesty..... But can you edify all these claims.... because many interviews DONT show this type of, Parents are here for work, Parents are paying for childs cost lots are subsidized, child was not smuggled many were over stayed tourist visa or visa's in general...........

 

[jaeger19]

While that makes sense can you substantiate this? If the Parents are illegal, likely they are doing cash jobs an NOT W2 or 1099 as they dont file taxes. Secondly. Public schools is public school funded by American TAX payers.... Finally... A child that goes to urgent care without Insurance, or ER, you are telling me they are able to afford the NON subsidies cost of medical treatment?

have you been to an Urgent care facility and paid out of POCKET expense? LOL they are not going to an Urgent care office they are either self medicating or going to the ER which again is subsidized by again whom? The AMERICAN TAX Payer.

But lets take 2 steps back here....


DACA is one, Illegal is another discussion, We tried to blend the 2.

Illegal is Illegal is Illegal (lets take DACA out for a moment) so if they are NOT DACA recipients. Then what? They are SUBJECT to immigration law as we stated, 3-10 year bans based on their duration of illegal stays, then they must re apply. 5 million,11 million, 20 million illegals. What ever the number is. They are utilizing public subsidized benefits.... lets NOT pretend this does NOT happen. Secondly they ARE illegal not protected by any type of TPS, DACA, DAPA etc... so they do NOT legally contribute to the actual infrastructure, OUT side of direct spending and STATE General Excise tax they pay on tangible items.

Now lets add DACA back in for a moment. They want amnesty...SURE ok lets do that... but its funny I just watched a news interview of a DACA recipient. She qualifies. But here is the funny kicker. She was brought in by her parents on a tourist visa and KNOWINGLY OVER STAYED here TOURIST VISA? SAY WHAT, this is NOT what I thought DACA to be. I am thinking a smuggled child, running from danger or terrible surroundings. NOT a person that took the time to file a visa and choose to over stay , then Get DACA and then ask for Amnesty. We need to Screen DACA and provide to those that ACTUALLY deserve it.

Secondly. DACA wants rights as an American citizen to sponsor their Parents. OK sure... But lets separate each, the PARENTS broke the Law, so the parents are subject to the law. The Child Cannot sponsor someone that broke the law. Sure they can sponsor someone else... but so sorry.... parents made their bed.. END of discussion, DONT like it go with the parents.....


Anyways... The more I read and research, the more I watch protest and discussion the more I realize that its actually worse than I thought, originally I had a heart...Jaeger your example of a 16 year old made me have a heart, But if I dove into that specific case and it was exactly like you state, parents are here for work, Parents way for child schooling and medical, Child was smuggled in. SURE lets give them amnesty..... But can you edify all these claims.... because many interviews DONT show this type of, Parents are here for work, Parents are paying for childs cost lots are subsidized, child was not smuggled many were over stayed tourist visa or visa's in general...........

I already supplied the information on illegal immigrants. 1. They are here to work.. which means they are healthy. 2. the do not qualify for federal programs like welfare, or social security 3. They pay local and state taxes. Public schools are largely funded by state and local taxes.. particularly property taxes.. which illegal immigrants pay when they pay rent.

And I already supplied you the facts that bolster this.. you simply don't want to believe the facts.

 

[Exactice]

I already supplied the information on illegal immigrants. 1. They are here to work.. which means they are healthy. 2. the do not qualify for federal programs like welfare, or social security 3. They pay local and state taxes. Public schools are largely funded by state and local taxes.. particularly property taxes.. which illegal immigrants pay when they pay rent.

And I already supplied you the facts that bolster this.. you simply don't want to believe the facts.

I agree they are here to work, I cannot edify if they are healthy or NOT... there is No facts proving this, We DO KNOW Factually that they do NOT qualify for programs, BUT that does NOT mean they DO NOT use PUBLICLY Funded programs. Yes they pay State Tax and General Excise tax, but they do not pay Income withholding tax which is much more significant as in 15% of ones payroll rather than 0-10% general excise tax for. they pay rent? well sure yes, but because they are illegal is the owner as well circumventing rent laws as well and paying proper taxes on the rent.


Again I am NOT saying they are free loading in anyway shape or form but, they WANT amnesty to quantify as an American Citizen, YET "all their life" they have not been paying their fair share either.... So if they are "Just as American" as they say they are how about, they also pay back taxes etc....or similar to what an American has to pay when caught not paying taxes. Some type of penalty and or agreement etc?

Its not that I dont want to believe in facts.... its that we cannot accurately edify that all Illegals are paying taxes, all illegals are not using public funded programs, all illegals are working etc.....

 

[Mr Person]

FYI, people....


Illegal entry is a crime, but many more people called "illegals" actually did stuff like overstaying a visa. Unlawful presence is actually just a civil offense, so they actually haven't committed a "crime".

 

[MrShangles]

they or their family pays for them going to school and their medical.

If their families were here illegally, how did they pay for school, medical. Please explain


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[jaeger19]

If their families were here illegally, how did they pay for school, medical. Please explain


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Lets see... I did... their families work.. they pay state and local taxes that fund the school system.. and they need little medical generally and when they need it.. they pay cash.

the same as they buy cars, and food and houses, and all sorts of other things.

 

[Exactice]

FYI, people....


Illegal entry is a crime, but many more people called "illegals" actually did stuff like overstaying a visa. Unlawful presence is actually just a civil offense, so they actually haven't committed a "crime".

thats fine and dandy to use terms to substantiate.... So lets ask this questions.

a Person goes to a custom agent. scans their passport blah blah. They over stay their visa, ICE agent catches them... they get deported, lets say this happens in one swoop. But the person that snuck across a border is caught.... they get deported as well? Why should we treat DACA any different then. Dont look at the situation, look at the "offense" they committed. its the same and results should be the same as well.

we are using hearts and minds to play on peoples morals right? We feel "bad" because the kids had no choice?

Again, ALL the Illegals NEED to be deported in one swoop. Find out all those that over stayed their visa.... go to the door, get a HUGE C130 and fly em back to their respective countries?


Its funny... we discuss this as my wife ended up like this, she came for a visit years ago and told me she was NOT allowed to enter the country. without changing her flight plans. She thought they have 3 months so she booked, 3 months... But its not 3 months as that would be 92 days.... its 90 days....EXACTLY. she had to go back to the check in counter and move her flight 2 days earlier to accommodate the 90 day requirement.


If she violated it and stayed she would be barred to enter the states for minimum 3 years no?


Again Illegals are Illegals, So the PARENTS of a DACA are surely illegal so the DACA has NOT dog in the fight to include their parents in the CHILDS amnesty right?

 

[CriticalThought]

I hate to beat a dead horse.... but I was just watching something today about the Sanctuary cities....and it made me question,


When people TALK immigration, The Right Seems to harp specifically on "Illegal" immigration.

The Left never brings up Illegal Just Immigration period. Its like they disregard Illegal, Immigration is all the same?

Sorry hate throw it out there like that but thats what it seems like....

What I mean is, My wife came through immigration through a K1 visa, we have been happily married for 5 years now and 2 beautiful children. Things are going great and will continue so for many many many years to come.

But during the Visa process it was LONG, tenuous, cost a lot and we where separated for at least a year. We WENT THROUGH THE IMMIGRATION process...Paid thousands, did interviews and waited separated.


So why should 800,000+ Illegal immigrants, just DACA not including the 14million Illegals already here "Get" a pass?


I just dont get it. I am an American Citizen born and raised, I followed all laws, yet these people that KNOWINGLY committed a crime get a pass. More so the Chain Migration attached to it.... HOW and why does this work?

PLEASE justify this for me?

Don't you think "get a pass" is loaded language when literally no person is advocating they get instant citizenship?

And if someone was brought here as a young child, how did they "knowingly" commit a crime?

 

[Mr Person]

thats fine and dandy to use terms to substantiate.... So lets ask this questions.

a Person goes to a custom agent. scans their passport blah blah. They over stay their visa, ICE agent catches them... they get deported, lets say this happens in one swoop. But the person that snuck across a border is caught.... they get deported as well? Why should we treat DACA any different then. Dont look at the situation, look at the "offense" they committed. its the same and results should be the same as well.

we are using hearts and minds to play on peoples morals right? We feel "bad" because the kids had no choice?

So much misdirection.

1. The DACA applicant didn't sneak across a border. They were brought here when they were legally incompetent minors. You might as well jail a four year old for assault and battery because he hit his sister. No, wait, not close enough. You might as well jail the kid because his father held the kid's hand and used the kid's hand to hit the sister.

2. "we are using hearts and minds to play on peoples morals right?"

Where do you think the human concept of morality comes from? Since when is compassion and basic human decency sinful?

Again, ALL the Illegals NEED to be deported in one swoop. Find out all those that over stayed their visa.... go to the door, get a HUGE C130 and fly em back to their respective countries?

Its funny... we discuss this as my wife ended up like this, she came for a visit years ago and told me she was NOT allowed to enter the country. without changing her flight plans. She thought they have 3 months so she booked, 3 months... But its not 3 months as that would be 92 days.... its 90 days....EXACTLY. she had to go back to the check in counter and move her flight 2 days earlier to accommodate the 90 day requirement. If she violated it and stayed she would be barred to enter the states for minimum 3 years no? Again Illegals are Illegals, So the PARENTS of a DACA are surely illegal so the DACA has NOT dog in the fight to include their parents in the CHILDS amnesty right?

Assuming that's even true, your wife changing a flight =/= someone who was brought here as a three year old, now facing deportation to a country whose language she doesn't speak, and in betrayal of prior assurances.

If you're going to act like a personal anecdote is somehow relevant, I doubt any further discussion will be productive. Doubly so when you deliberately ignore the fact that people who don't want them deported want some kind of path to citizenship, not blanket instant immunity no matter what.

 

[Exactice]

Don't you think "get a pass" is loaded language when literally no person is advocating they get instant citizenship?

Yes, sorry about that, LACK of a better terminology at this time. I used "Golden Ticket" and that was NOT I guess politically correct. Not that I care to be PC... Im just trying to convey a point.


That being said though. The have a pathway TO citizenship... when their parents broke immigration law. Does that mean they are afforded the FULL same rights as any other legal immigrant that their parents did NOT break the law. Can they sponsor their parents the BROKE the law etc?


Also Where do these DACA recipients FALL in the total immigration numbers. Are they part of the 1 million per year, does that mean the individuals in que get pushed back? When we say amnesty to we "waive" all things prior. meaning they are then treated like a citizen. If a citizen was found not paying taxes for 10-20+ years. they would then be penalized and have to go through some IRS agent to settle back taxes and penalties. Will these people be held responsible for that?


The whole ball of wax to this is long... but to just bestow a term like citizenship to them... after all these years.... if they want the benefit from being one. Should they also NOT be responsible of being one?

https://www.uscis.gov/citizenship/learners/citizenship-rights-and-responsibilities

"Responsibilities"

Support and defend the Constitution.

Stay informed of the issues affecting your community.

Participate in the democratic process.

Respect and obey federal, state, and local laws.

Respect the rights, beliefs, and opinions of others.

Participate in your local community.

Pay income and other taxes honestly, and on time, to federal, state, and local authorities.

Serve on a jury when called upon.

Defend the country if the need should arise.


Funny I already see 3 of these things... that they are "Technically" violating? While wanting to SO Badly be an American Citizen.

 

[Exactice]

So much misdirection.

1. The DACA applicant didn't sneak across a border. They were brought here when they were legally incompetent minors. You might as well jail a four year old for assault and battery because he hit his sister. No, wait, not close enough. You might as well jail the kid because his father held the kid's hand and used the kid's hand to hit the sister.

2. "we are using hearts and minds to play on peoples morals right?"

Where do you think the human concept of morality comes from? Since when is compassion and basic human decency sinful?






Assuming that's even true, your wife changing a flight =/= someone who was brought here as a three year old, now facing deportation to a country whose language she doesn't speak, and in betrayal of prior assurances.

If you're going to act like a personal anecdote is somehow relevant, I doubt any further discussion will be productive. Doubly so when you deliberately ignore the fact that people who don't want them deported want some kind of path to citizenship, not blanket instant immunity no matter what.

Actually lets be fair, again I am having a discussion. Thats all... that being said with another member to clarify....

1) We agreed that a child that was negligent of their citizenship and had NO control surely we can extend amensty and reason with.
2) First rate Citizen vs Second Rate. If we allow amnesty to the DACA Recipients (which I would accept under certain conditions, basically the same security reason, not a danger to society, no criminal back ground etc... Im good with that) But limited in their sponsorship to the PARENTS that actually committed the crime. They want their CAKE and eat it too which I am NOT ok with.

3) Yes that actually happened with my wife, was trippy, as I never thought about the day I thought 3 months as well. Yes its not quite the same. BUT my point in example is the Tourist VISA, the parents knew the 90 day came in the country with their children and over stayed it..... IF they happened to get picked up by ICE agents on day 91 they would be deported and Barred from entering at minimum of 3 years right? That includes the Children, again. The example was the point you come in illegal or stay illegally, the punishment is the same?


So anyways. Again, Im just trying to make heads and tails. I have my own pre determine thoughts, but I am coming here to OPEN my mind and try to make reason.



With that per my previous post. and again to point out. Having your cake and eat it too.

DACA recipient wants a path way. THEY can HAVE it.. as long as they are with in immigration legalities (not a safety concern)

They have full rights as a citizen, except those that violated the law for their pathway. They are barred the same way any other illegal is barred and when the bar is lifted they need to apply the same way that any other immigrant applies.


Again a child that was raised here from a baby......
I had 2 kids recently, My infant needed to go to the doctor every month the first year... then every 2 months the second and now as she is 2 years old yearly check ups, During this the first 2 years, she was given immunizations and now that she attends school required immunizations before allowed to go to school. Finally my daughter and Im sure many children get sick at least once in the first 2 years that requires a doctors check up...... WHO paid for all this? for those kids that have been here since 1 years old? Supposedly they are NOT allowed public services, so this is all out of pocket expense? If they are illegal they are not likely top paying wages either, now these kids have been in the country for 10+ years.... they never got sick never had to see a doctor, never needed emergency care? Many these are some amazing children as I my daughter school, half of them get sick as they pass it around and at least 10% come in with a cast or busted teeth etc. Seriously... I would love to see stats on public services used by illegals....


so lets say we Wipe this slate clean, are you all good with that? And by extending this amnesty... what prevents other Parents from Doing the same? Now we get a HUGE flood of tourist VISA's with kids that overstay so their kids can get amnesty?

Its funny learning more and more.... Jaeger, was saying these people come for work? Yet there are examples that they are coming and overstaying Tourist Visa, so that puts hole in the "They are coming here to work"?

 

[CriticalThought]

Yes, sorry about that, LACK of a better terminology at this time. I used "Golden Ticket" and that was NOT I guess politically correct. Not that I care to be PC... Im just trying to convey a point.


That being said though. The have a pathway TO citizenship... when their parents broke immigration law. Does that mean they are afforded the FULL same rights as any other legal immigrant that their parents did NOT break the law. Can they sponsor their parents the BROKE the law etc?


Also Where do these DACA recipients FALL in the total immigration numbers. Are they part of the 1 million per year, does that mean the individuals in que get pushed back? When we say amnesty to we "waive" all things prior. meaning they are then treated like a citizen. If a citizen was found not paying taxes for 10-20+ years. they would then be penalized and have to go through some IRS agent to settle back taxes and penalties. Will these people be held responsible for that?


The whole ball of wax to this is long... but to just bestow a term like citizenship to them... after all these years.... if they want the benefit from being one. Should they also NOT be responsible of being one?

https://www.uscis.gov/citizenship/learners/citizenship-rights-and-responsibilities

"Responsibilities"

Support and defend the Constitution.

Stay informed of the issues affecting your community.

Participate in the democratic process.

Respect and obey federal, state, and local laws.

Respect the rights, beliefs, and opinions of others.

Participate in your local community.

Pay income and other taxes honestly, and on time, to federal, state, and local authorities.

Serve on a jury when called upon.

Defend the country if the need should arise.


Funny I already see 3 of these things... that they are "Technically" violating? While wanting to SO Badly be an American Citizen.

Interesting. Your perspective differs fundamentally from my own. It is actually astonishing to me to hear an American embracing the idea of punishing people for what their parents did. That is a concept embraced in North Korea, but I did not know there were people in this country who entertained that principle.

Also, how is this a zero sum game? Do you really believe that if DACA folk are given a path to citizenship it means that legal immigrants will have to be pushed back further in the queue? That does not make sense.

The bipartisan legislation that has been proposed for DACA folk includes...

-A 10 to 12 year path to citizenship, but only if they have a clean record and been paying taxes
-forbids them from sponsoring their parents

This does not seem like a "free pass" or "golden ticket" or whatever you want to call it.

I don't understand what you want from these people. If you had been brought here illegally when you were 1 year old, had spent your entire life in this country, and one day was asked to go back to a country you have no memory of, no family, and possibly no connection to the language or culture, I imagine you would find that incredibly unfair. And yet it feels like that is exactly what you want to do to some of these people. I can't understand why.

 

[sangha]

Interesting. Your perspective differs fundamentally from my own. It is actually astonishing to me to hear an American embracing the idea of punishing people for what their parents did. That is a concept embraced in North Korea, but I did not know there were people in this country who entertained that principle.

Also, how is this a zero sum game? Do you really believe that if DACA folk are given a path to citizenship it means that legal immigrants will have to be pushed back further in the queue? That does not make sense.

The bipartisan legislation that has been proposed for DACA folk includes...

-A 10 to 12 year path to citizenship, but only if they have a clean record and been paying taxes
-forbids them from sponsoring their parents

This does not seem like a "free pass" or "golden ticket" or whatever you want to call it.

I don't understand what you want from these people. If you had been brought here illegally when you were 1 year old, had spent your entire life in this country, and one day was asked to go back to a country you have no memory of, no family, and possibly no connection to the language or culture, I imagine you would find that incredibly unfair. And yet it feels like that is exactly what you want to do to some of these people. I can't understand why.

You do not understand, so let me explain

When a DACA recipient obeys the rules and gets citizenship in 10 or more years, it is A Golden Ticket

When his wife follows the rules and gets citizenship, it is The Way It Should Work

 

[Exactice]

Interesting. Your pers..................
.

If your intent is to come here and make a personal attack by calling my "thoughts" same as North Koreans. I kindly ask you read the whole thread.

1) the original thread was to distinguish the difference between Legal and Illegal
2) Fundamentally, the WORLD has different views....so you have one I have one, it doesnt make my view and less or wrong. Its just a different view/opinion
3) I created this thread to LEARN a different view and try to understand another persons view. I could just keep my eyes and ears shut and go on thinking blindly to my opinion... but I wanted to try to give a fair thought...



That being said. We discussed Illegal vs Legal Migration. Then we reached DACA.

If the Parents and Child were CAUGHT from DAY one on the border, would they be deported? YES
If the Parents and child were caught on day 91 from over staying a Visa, would they be Deported? YES

So when you say the CHILD being punished? Well if all things equal from day one, the law was broken they would be deported.

The issue is that these people STAYED and STAYED for years. like you stated only knowing America as where they were born. BUT the fact of the matter is they are illegal.

What is the difference from a Person Yesterday running across the border with their 1 year old child? The law is the Law is the LAW? Right?


Now hearts and mind say we cant just send a child back Sure I have started to take and accept that the will of the people are leaning this way. So if its voted this way I can accept this.

BUT there seems to be lots of caveats that need to be ironed out.

The proposals that you listed makes sense, BUT guess what? the DACA people do not want those limitations. Nor does it seem that the Democrats want it either. They want full amnesty. NO limitations. They want their cake and eat it too. Secondly. Why do we have a 1 million per year limitation of migration? likely because of infrastructure and to maintain balance between funds and state abilities to maintain an influx of additional people. If maintained our 1 million plus DACA that now Increase the limit to 1.8 million that now DOUBLES the need for resources etc. Are you telling me that these people per capita are and will be fully able to sustain them self the moment they receive amnesty? I doubt it and here is why

1) 30% us under the age of 20 years old - meaning no jobs or still in school
2) 70% is over the age of 20, BUT these people that are jeopardy seem not to be able to obtain work visa's meaning they do not have a JOB willing to sponsor them, MEANING likely the jobs that they are doing, is not wage balance jobs that can sustain them right off the bat as citizens. Imagine, that they were making $8 under the table, but now as a citizen have to pay income tax... thats 15% of their cash job...meaning they actually lose money...... They might then need to go on public services.....
3) They have no additional sponsors if they did they would have been sponsored by now. And because they received Citizenship they now want to sponsor others? This is like welfare making more babies because they get more benefits... perpetuated cycle

Now here comes the flame suite, this is MY assumptions, by logic.... people will say that NO nothing like the above will happen and can you say that factual and truthfully? This to me seems like the blind side of the other side of the coin where people seem to ignore the potential........

As for asking me? Its the law of the land. We as the US is providing exemptions for breaking the law, if we were in "North Korea" what do you think they would do to the family? Exactly... this is the reason why people try to migrate here. BUT again we HAVE controlled borders, WE have immigration law.

Lastly, going back to the responsibilities of being a US citizen as I listed.... while having the title seems easy are they WILLING to "back date" their citizenship as they partook in the benefits of being in America. The responsibility of doing so is LISTED....

Being an American Citizens have its benefits and responsibilities. Are they will to fulfill both?

 

[CriticalThought]

If your intent is to come here and make a personal attack by calling my "thoughts" same as North Koreans. I kindly ask you read the whole thread.

1) the original thread was to distinguish the difference between Legal and Illegal
2) Fundamentally, the WORLD has different views....so you have one I have one, it doesnt make my view and less or wrong. Its just a different view/opinion
3) I created this thread to LEARN a different view and try to understand another persons view. I could just keep my eyes and ears shut and go on thinking blindly to my opinion... but I wanted to try to give a fair thought...



That being said. We discussed Illegal vs Legal Migration. Then we reached DACA.

If the Parents and Child were CAUGHT from DAY one on the border, would they be deported? YES
If the Parents and child were caught on day 91 from over staying a Visa, would they be Deported? YES

So when you say the CHILD being punished? Well if all things equal from day one, the law was broken they would be deported.

The issue is that these people STAYED and STAYED for years. like you stated only knowing America as where they were born. BUT the fact of the matter is they are illegal.

What is the difference from a Person Yesterday running across the border with their 1 year old child? The law is the Law is the LAW? Right?


Now hearts and mind say we cant just send a child back Sure I have started to take and accept that the will of the people are leaning this way. So if its voted this way I can accept this.

BUT there seems to be lots of caveats that need to be ironed out.

The proposals that you listed makes sense, BUT guess what? the DACA people do not want those limitations. Nor does it seem that the Democrats want it either. They want full amnesty. NO limitations. They want their cake and eat it too. Secondly. Why do we have a 1 million per year limitation of migration? likely because of infrastructure and to maintain balance between funds and state abilities to maintain an influx of additional people. If maintained our 1 million plus DACA that now Increase the limit to 1.8 million that now DOUBLES the need for resources etc. Are you telling me that these people per capita are and will be fully able to sustain them self the moment they receive amnesty? I doubt it and here is why

1) 30% us under the age of 20 years old - meaning no jobs or still in school
2) 70% is over the age of 20, BUT these people that are jeopardy seem not to be able to obtain work visa's meaning they do not have a JOB willing to sponsor them, MEANING likely the jobs that they are doing, is not wage balance jobs that can sustain them right off the bat as citizens. Imagine, that they were making $8 under the table, but now as a citizen have to pay income tax... thats 15% of their cash job...meaning they actually lose money...... They might then need to go on public services.....
3) They have no additional sponsors if they did they would have been sponsored by now. And because they received Citizenship they now want to sponsor others? This is like welfare making more babies because they get more benefits... perpetuated cycle

Now here comes the flame suite, this is MY assumptions, by logic.... people will say that NO nothing like the above will happen and can you say that factual and truthfully? This to me seems like the blind side of the other side of the coin where people seem to ignore the potential........

As for asking me? Its the law of the land. We as the US is providing exemptions for breaking the law, if we were in "North Korea" what do you think they would do to the family? Exactly... this is the reason why people try to migrate here. BUT again we HAVE controlled borders, WE have immigration law.

Lastly, going back to the responsibilities of being a US citizen as I listed.... while having the title seems easy are they WILLING to "back date" their citizenship as they partook in the benefits of being in America. The responsibility of doing so is LISTED....

Being an American Citizens have its benefits and responsibilities. Are they will to fulfill both?

Could you post where you heard Dreamers rejected the bipartisan proposals? I know they rejected what the White House proposed, but I had not seen what you are asserting.

I think you are more interested in the Strawman Democrats and DACA than the real ones.

 

[Exactice]

Could you post where you heard Dreamers rejected the bipartisan proposals? I know they rejected what the White House proposed, but I had not seen what you are asserting.

I think you are more interested in the Strawman Democrats and DACA than the real ones.

https://youtu.be/O0OR03_MaBA?t=47s

This video sparked my initial concern,

One of the loopholes of overstaying a Tourist Visa, Which I never even realized was a way through the system as well.

Secondly While this person doesnt speak for all DACA recipients, from my limited research I am hearing more and more about "second class" citizen. Stating that if they get citizenship they cant sponsor the same way as a regular citizen.... which while true is because their PARENTS broke the law, so we wont punish the kids but the parents are a NO go.