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If Heaven Existed, Wouldn't You Be Bored?

Anarcho-fascist said:
Kaku is an expert on quantum physics, but sometimes he says things that are kinda sketchy when talking outside of his field of expertise. Free will can still be an illusion in a non-deterministic universe. Harris is an expert on the brain, while Kaku is not.
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Yeah, I think he envelopes the psychology along with the science. (Sam harris being the pronoun here)
 
Jryan said:
I think this is Newtonian physics and the rest is logic.:shrug: Can't find a news story on every science belief I have.
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Anarcho-fascist said:
Kaku is an expert on quantum physics, but sometimes he says things that are kinda sketchy when talking outside of his field of expertise. Free will can still be an illusion in a non-deterministic universe. Harris is an expert on the brain, while Kaku is not.
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Well, fellas. Kaku was discussing quantum mechanics when considering the position of an electron, so he wasn't outside his field. Newtonian physics deals with the very large and does so very well, but it doesn't work so well when dealing with the very small. It's hard to say Kaku's wrong because of Newtonian physics when Newtonian physics is inappropriate at the sub-atomic level.

What I see Harris doing watching is neurological "reflexes" at work. This was him watching motor responses 350th of a second faster than cognitive ones. Some people, when tapped on the shoulder from behind will spin around swinging with a punch. Conscious thought didn't enter into it. It was purely a response triggered by environment. Sounds like determinism, right? But this isn't proof of determinism. It's only proof of automatic systems called reflexes. These are developed - they must be taught - with repetition and the conscious belief (free will) that these things are necessary for goals set forth by conscious mind as a result of free will.
 
ell, fellas. Kaku was discussing quantum mechanics when considering the position of an electron, so he wasn't outside his field. Newtonian physics deals with the very large and does so very well, but it doesn't work so well when dealing with the very small. It's hard to say Kaku's wrong because of Newtonian physics when Newtonian physics is inappropriate at the sub-atomic level.
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I haven't started my physics course (That is next semester) so maybe I'll stay out of the science discussion for now :).


What I see Harris doing watching is neurological "reflexes" at work. This was him watching motor responses 350th of a second faster than cognitive ones. Some people, when tapped on the shoulder from behind will spin around swinging with a punch. Conscious thought didn't enter into it. It was purely a response triggered by environment. Sounds like determinism, right? But this isn't proof of determinism. It's only proof of automatic systems called reflexes. These are developed - they must be taught - with repetition and the conscious belief (free will) that these things are necessary for goals set forth by conscious mind as a result of free will.
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Yeah well swinging around and punching the guy was a subconscious thought which no one has ANY control over.
 
Dittohead not! said:
And I suppose none of those 33 year old will get fat from sitting around eating all the time.

If everyone is the same age, where do these immortal youth servers come from?
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Well, it is a vision of Heaven after all. It's a magical place. If you can live there for all eternity, then I guess it makes sense that you would never age or get fat from eating so many olives. I suppose the youthful servers arise from out of the ether. It's not "my" heaven, but certainly mine would have similar "magical" properties.
 
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Pinkie said:
I realize it sounds disrespectful, but it's a question I've always had about christianity. I myself was raised Catholic, and the Heaven portrayed for us was one where regimented rows of beings of various degrees of holiness sang incessantly.

This did not appeal.

May I ask, what's your vision of Heaven, and why would you want to go?
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You're thinking of Heaven as simply an infinite continuation of time, which it is not. In Heaven many of the limitations which exist on our intellects now will not. All of our intellects are limited due to the fall, when we die, our intelligence will be higher, so six years olds will not forever remain six years old, as you claim. Also, in Heaven, we will have the power of instantaneous intellection, so while on Earth we could continue to figure out new things indefinitely from the same information, in Heaven we would immediately know everything that could be logically extrapolated from any given information, as soon as we are aware of that information.

In Heaven, time will be replaced with aveternity, an intermediate state between the eternal now that God exists in, and time. So we will not get bored, as our minds will not continuously move from one thought to another.

Also, in Heaven we will have the beatific vision, which means that God, in all three persons, will be immediately present to our intellects. Now in the Thomistic philosophical tradition, while the intellect and the will mutually influence each other, they ultimately must be in agreement before a person can perform a free act, so if a person saw pure absolute goodness, he would necessarily desire it absolutely, and thus the permanent state of being in God's presence would be sufficient satisfaction forever.
 
"Everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die" ~ Peter Tosh
 
Assuming heaven is a realm of infinite time, yes, I would be absolutely bored. I would not want to be there. I would have no Purpose there. I would have no duties, what could be worse?

If heaven is an eternal realm, outside of time, then I think it is impossible for me to go to it because I am a temporal being and so if I ever go there then in a sense I was always there and never had any choice in the matter.
 
Evan Shad said:
If heaven is an eternal realm, outside of time, then I think it is impossible for me to go to it because I am a temporal being and so if I ever go there then in a sense I was always there and never had any choice in the matter.
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This ignores the intermediate state of aveternity.
 
Paleocon said:
This ignores the intermediate state of aveternity.
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I have never heard of "aveternity". I googled it, but could find nothing other than youtube videos, forum posts, completely unrelated articles and various other non-definitions.
 
Evan Shad said:
I have never heard of "aveternity". I googled it, but could find nothing other than youtube videos, forum posts, completely unrelated articles and various other non-definitions.
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Aveternity is the state of a being such as a deceased human who has a beginning in time but who will exist forever. While it is true that an individual doesn't have a choice in whether to enter into aveternity, they do have a choice as to whether they will go to Heaven or Hell.
 
Paleocon said:
Aveternity is the state of a being such as a deceased human who has a beginning in time but who will exist forever. While it is true that an individual doesn't have a choice in whether to enter into aveternity, they do have a choice as to whether they will go to Heaven or Hell.
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But if either one is outside of time how can I enter them? If I am at first in time, but exit it to go into aveternity, then both are utltimately encompassed by time because there is sequential causality.
 
Evan Shad said:
But if either one is outside of time how can I enter them? If I am at first in time, but exit it to go into aveternity, then both are utltimately encompassed by time because there is sequential causality.
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Doesn't this seem like one of those moments when you wanna say.....

o-GOT-570.jpg
 
I envision heaven as a bunch of one cell ameoba's sitting around going "joy" over and over again in eternal ecstasy.

1. Were all brothers in heaven.
2. All our evil is stripped away leaving an amoeba behind that has no needs or desires except to feel pleasure.
3. We enjoy eternal bliss or ecstasy.

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Slyhunter said:
I envision heaven as a bunch of one cell ameoba's sitting around going "joy" over and over again in eternal ecstasy.

1. Were all brothers in heaven.
2. All our evil is stripped away leaving an amoeba behind that has no needs or desires except to feel pleasure.
3. We enjoy eternal bliss or ecstasy.

joy
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I'll have some of what you're havin.... :lol:
 
Evan Shad said:
But if either one is outside of time how can I enter them? If I am at first in time, but exit it to go into aveternity, then both are utltimately encompassed by time because there is sequential causality.
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We'll remember that in classical philosophy, what distinguishes two moments from each other is some change which has occurred between them (and without some change, time does not apply). Now while a person is on Earth, his intellect is not able to function instantaneously, so the composition of his thoughts will continually change, even without external influence. Thus on Earth man is inherently subject to time. Yet deceased souls will have the power of instantaneous intellection, so the composition of their thoughts will not change except due to new external conditions. Thus they will not get bored since such is a product of our earthly mental condition.

So in a sense you could say that the whole of aveternity is the last moment in time for a human soul.

Removable Mind said:
Doesn't this seem like one of those moments when you wanna say.....

o-GOT-570.jpg
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I understood what he said.
 
P.S. Just ignore RM, he has a tendency to get annoyed by intelligent conversation.
 
Pinkie said:
I realize it sounds disrespectful, but it's a question I've always had about christianity. I myself was raised Catholic, and the Heaven portrayed for us was one where regimented rows of beings of various degrees of holiness sang incessantly.

This did not appeal.

May I ask, what's your vision of Heaven, and why would you want to go?
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Heaven has many mansions, which is of most curiousity to you?
 
Paleocon said:
We'll remember that in classical philosophy, what distinguishes two moments from each other is some change which has occurred between them (and without some change, time does not apply). Now while a person is on Earth, his intellect is not able to function instantaneously, so the composition of his thoughts will continually change, even without external influence. Thus on Earth man is inherently subject to time. Yet deceased souls will have the power of instantaneous intellection, so the composition of their thoughts will not change except due to new external conditions. Thus they will not get bored since such is a product of our earthly mental condition.

So in a sense you could say that the whole of aveternity is the last moment in time for a human soul.
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It's the last moment in time? I think if it's a moment of time at all then it has to end just as quickly as any other moment. More importantly, the point is that if it's really separate from time and not on the other side of the future from the present, then if I am ever there I must already be there in some sense. You are right about us not getting bored in such a realm though.
 
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