Gettysburg[W:176]

[danielpalos]

I'm post facts. You're posting a story.

I agree to disagree with Your assessment.

Confederate assault infantry brigades were advancing on Union front lines; and providing suppression and counter fire support for confederate artillery.

Routine, matter of course infantry stuff.

and, the confederate artillery was claimed to overshoot by too much.

a better plan would have allowed the infantry to follow as close as the last, closest shot.

 

[apdst]

you have no facts or you would post your argument instead of your story; even girls, can do that.

The fact, is that a Federal surrender was never the objective.

 

[apdst]

I agree to disagree with Your assessment.

Confederate assault infantry brigades were advancing on Union front lines; and providing suppression and counter fire support for confederate artillery.

Routine, matter of course infantry stuff.

and, the confederate artillery was claimed to overshoot by too much.

a better plan would have allowed the infantry to follow as close as the last, closest shot.

Infantry doesn't support artillery, in an attack. Artillery supports infantry.

 

[danielpalos]

Infantry doesn't support artillery, in an attack. Artillery supports infantry.

it works both ways, if the artillery has to advance.

were there any orders to confederate sharpshooters to prioritize targets of opportunity, that support the advance of the artillery?

 

[ecofarm]

it works both ways, if the artillery has to advance.

Artillery, and everything else, is in support of infantry. Artillery can advance itself behind friendly lines. Maybe infantry will loan arty a couple scouts so no one steps in a hole.

 

[it's just me]

And they had to jump the fences along the Emmitsburg road, under fire.

The other thing is that I was surprised at just how steep Little Round Top was. The Confederates didn't have enough water, and the battle takes place in the first week of July. Those uniforms we were wearing were made of wool and not exactly cool. Supposedly the day of the actual battle was ridiculously hot.

 

[apdst]

The other thing is that I was surprised at just how steep Little Round Top was. The Confederates didn't have enough water, and the battle takes place in the first week of July. Those uniforms we were wearing were made of wool and not exactly cool. Supposedly the day of the actual battle was ridiculously hot.

1863 was the hottest year in recent memory and then there was the drought of 62-63.

 

[danielpalos]

Artillery, and everything else, is in support of infantry. Artillery can advance itself behind friendly lines. Maybe infantry will loan arty a couple scouts so no one steps in a hole.

were there any orders to confederate sharpshooters to prioritize targets of opportunity, that support the advance of the artillery?

 

[late]

Not necessarily. The Federals lost the last battle of the war.

Sigh.

Lee was in poor health at Gettysburg. The South had been reduced to guerilla tactics. The switch to trying force majeure was prob Lee ending the war. After that, the end was in sight, that was the last mistake.

 

[ecofarm]

were there any orders to confederate sharpshooters to prioritize targets of opportunity, that support the advance of the artillery?

Targets of opportunity. Hah.

 

[danielpalos]

Targets of opportunity. Hah.

infantry tasked with assault; need to advance, as does their supporting artillery.

different priorities.

 

[PoS]

So I just finished a great book called " Killer angels" which was a great introduction to the US Civil War, I don't really know a ton about the civil war but I have the bug now and have another book on the way. I did finish" Killer angels" with a couple of questions and I was hoping someone on here might be able to
tackle them for me.

1. Why was ( and still is) Lee considered a great General? From what I read his tactics cost the confederates that battle and Pickett's charge was a calamity.

2. If Lee had listen to Longstreet do you think the confederates could have won that battle?

3. If the confederates had won do you think that would have ended the war? If yes do you think the Union would have accepted the two state scenario or would they have eventually looked to retake the South?

Lots of good answers already, so I'll just add a little of my opinion into the mix:

1. Lee was beloved because the South needed heroes, the Confederate president Jefferson Davis was unpopular in some states, and Lee's early victories while heavily outnumbered fostered a romantic version of him. Confederate commanders were elected rather than appointed, and Lee's men loved him to the point where they were willing to die for him. During the early years of the Civil War, Lee's victories were in stark contrast to the incompetence of the Union generals, who kept losing despite an overwhelming advantage in men and materiel.

2. Gettysburg occurred in three distinct phrases- the initial meeting engagement, the battle for Little Round Top, and then finally Pickett's Charge. Longstreet advocated for a defensive battle- let the Union attack them. If Lee had listened to him who knows what would have happened, but I would feel it would have just led to a stalemate. Although Gettysburg was considered a Confederate defeat, Lee's army did managed to limp back into their territory mostly intact because Meade didnt follow through.

3. The true turning point of the war wasn't at Gettysburg- it was to the West, at Vicksburg- which happened right around the same time. Grant's victory there was more decisive, because it tore the Confederacy in two. Even if the rebels won at Gettysburg, my feeling is that they still would have lost the war.

The only way the rebels could have possibly won the war was by getting European support, and Europe would never allow themselves to be dragged into it. The remarkable thing about the Civil War was that the Confederacy was able to hold out for so long, despite their overwhelming disadvantage in manpower and industry.

 

[ecofarm]

infantry tasked with assault; need to advance, as does their supporting artillery.

different priorities.

Infantry is a target of life and death, not opportunity.

 

[danielpalos]

Infantry is a target of life and death, not opportunity.

interesting story.

is there an, "artillery guard" or is "combat artillery", an option?

 

[apdst]

Sigh.

Lee was in poor health at Gettysburg. The South had been reduced to guerilla tactics. The switch to trying force majeure was prob Lee ending the war. After that, the end was in sight, that was the last mistake.

The Confederates hadn't been reduced to guerilla war...lol

 

[late]

The Confederates hadn't been reduced to guerilla war...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerrilla_warfare_in_the_American_Civil_War

 

[danielpalos]

infantry tasked with assault; need to advance, as does their supporting artillery.

different priorities; advancing confederate infantry should have to, perforce "take out" Their artillery guys before they get Our artillery guys".

 

[apdst]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerrilla_warfare_in_the_American_Civil_War

That isn't representitive all Confederate forces.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overland_Campaign

 

[late]

That isn't representitive all Confederate forces.

They were dealing with conflicting imperatives. Guerilla warfare is about wearing the enemy down. You let them have anything they want. But they didn't want their cities razed, and they knew that was coming.

We're playing a word game here. They were up against a superior force, and did guerilla action as much as they could. At the end, they weren't willing to sacrifice their cities, but what that means is that they knew they'd lost.

 

[apdst]

They were dealing with conflicting imperatives. Guerilla warfare is about wearing the enemy down. You let them have anything they want. But they didn't want their cities razed, and they knew that was coming.

We're playing a word game here. They were up against a superior force, and did guerilla action as much as they could. At the end, they weren't willing to sacrifice their cities, but what that means is that they knew they'd lost.

No, we aren't. Guerilla operations made a minute amount of combat operations during The Civil War. Convetional warfare accounted for about 98% of the deployments and employments

 

[Nickyjo]

Years ago Life mag had a series or issue, “If the South had won the Civil War.” It mentioned freedom for slaves within a generation, I believe, though I don’t remember their reasoning, plus other interesting speculation.

I used to be a bit of a buff on the war and visited many battlefields. Antietam seemed as tragic as Gettysburg. Another horror story was Andersonville. What a waste! Southern boys who may not have had slaves fighting to preserve an evil institution. The war’s purpose betrayed with the end of reconstruction for political purposes and the start of lynching, which history wasn’t taught til recently, accompanied by a century of Jim Crow. Still, the phrase about Christ in the Battle Hymn, “As He died to make men holy, let us die to make men free” can break your heart.

Makes you furious at generals and politicians, many of whom were no doubt doing their best.

Other book recommendations: Andersonville, A Yankee Private’s Civil War (soldiers diary-like account, by Robert Hale Strong, I think) and At the Hands of Persons Unknown, (lynching, the phrase the coroner would put on the record to describe the cause of the victim’s death.)

 

[ecofarm]

interesting story.

is there an, "artillery guard" or is "combat artillery", an option?

Artillery is a combat arm. Non-combat artillery would be a war crime. Artillery guard would be a (presumably, for God's sake) temporary punishment.

 

[apdst]

infantry tasked with assault; need to advance, as does their supporting artillery.

different priorities.

You're right, but the part you insist on ignoring is that the artillery can't advance so far forward that it's within range of the enemy infantry's weapons. It also has to attempt to avoid becoming a target for counter-battery fire from the enemy's artillery.

 

[southwest88]

Logistics & poor command decision-making

The Southern artillery was critically short of ammo & powder, as I recall. They did try to suppress/destroy the Union batteries, but they couldn't sustain the fire - they had a numerical advantage in fieldpieces (estimated 150 - 170 cannon), but the range was long & the Union forces were on top of the ridge - tough targets. Moreover, the Union artillery (80 pieces) held fire, to save rounds for the infantry charge they knew was coming.

It was a slaughter of fine troops.

From Gettysburg, Stephen Sears, c2003, Houghton Mifflin Co. - an excellent history of the battle.

In the CSA cannonade upon Union positions before Pickett’s Charge, US Gen. Gibbon (artillery) “noticed, too, that many of the enemy’s shells were not detonating over the lines – or not detonating at all – but were soaring over the ridge and landing in the rear areas.” The CSA had serious fuzing problems.

CSA mobile batteries were supposed to accompany the charge, & support the attack. CSA Gen. Pendleton was in charge of planning & conveying overall artillery orders, but he wasn’t up to the task. He also moved the ordnance train back for safety - & neglected to leave anyone to direct the deployed artillery where to go for more ammo. & so the CSA artillery fell silent, for lack of powder & ammo. Gen. Pendleton had also failed to keep track of shot & shell on hand (the CSA had been campaigning for 3 weeks, & expended lots of cannon ammo, & lost 400 artillery rounds crossing the Shenandoah River). The CSA artillery was short of ammo, & Pendleton failed to advise his superiors & subordinates of the fact.

The CSA gun line did have lots of cannister - but that was only good for defense against infantry, if they closed to within cannister distance.

 

[danielpalos]

You're right, but the part you insist on ignoring is that the artillery can't advance so far forward that it's within range of the enemy infantry's weapons. It also has to attempt to avoid becoming a target for counter-battery fire from the enemy's artillery.

that is your story bro, not my story. i never made that claim.