Elderly Will Be Denied Intensive Care as Coronavirus Overwhelms Italy's National Health System, Expe

[cabse5]

When a hospital is full, they make decisions....ever thought about the fact that we send immigrants, even legal ones back to their country when they are in ICU? You know why? It frees beds, even if that person dies. I don't approve of us doing that, because the immigrant that would live with care should not be any less important than anyone else...but Republicans cheer it on. A person who is 90 and is not likely to survive because he has severe life ending pneumonia is going to be left while someone who is 20 something and has pneumonia in one lung will be treated. Why? She is going to live, he isn't.

You disagree healthcare is a right?

 

[cabse5]

Agreed... Let's reduce the debt by canceling Medicare...

We can start by stopping the lie that healthcare is a right.

 

[cabse5]

That's great. Too bad it's already here and too bad that Americans also carry and spread it. Closing borders only offers the illusion that we live in a bubble, while making anti-immigration hawks horny.

As most things in this pandemic, the fed is just trying to curb the herd mentality. They've failed miserably. EDIT: How could they not fail? It's getting in whether we like it or not. END OF EDIT> With one hand Trump closes borders and with the other hand Trump declares a national crisis.

 

[cabse5]

One has nothing to do with the other. Here's a metaphor: We spend hundreds of billions on our military and we can't win a war against tribesmen. "How well did all that spending work out?"

And all that socialized medicine has delivered test kits, hasn't it? Where's your test kit?

SIAP. This pandemic will prove any healthcare, anywhere, will not be able to handle it.

 

[cabse5]

Medical panels continue to exist because supply is limited. This is why there are lines for transplants and panels have to approve through selection. There is nothing arcane about this. And a century is 1000 years. You are being over-zealous in your dismissal.

And Reagan's mandate is exactly why the country needs a health program. Hospitals recoup their losses by padding bills to insurance companies, which make our premiums higher. Hospitals also bill the government to compensate, which comes from our tax dollars. It ain't free. Connect the dots.

Where is the right to healthcare in a pandemic?

 

[cabse5]

It's a metaphor. The system acts as a panel in which natural "culling" occurs. Whereas an literal panel will sit around and select who gets the transplant and whether or not people can slip to the front of a line, our insurance and pharmaceutical system demands a certain economic situation for proper care. Those who aren't at that economic level are stuck looking for "free" clinics and emergency rooms for limited care, but still face pharmaceutical prices that hey can't afford. Plenty enough die within this system.

Further: those "free" clinics are paid for by tax dollars that the average American, to include the poor, pays. In that respect, we are already within a socialized system. But in our system, hundred billion dollar companies don't pay taxes. This places all the burden on the average American who can afford his health insurance and medicine...and still pays the taxes that go towards "free" clinics, hospitals, emergency rooms, and ambulance companies who look to the government to compensate.

Our thinking is very wrong -headed because conservatives have been led down a road that leaves them ignoring a great deal about our system.

You realize everyone in every healthcare system can't afford healthcare?

And, unfortunately, those who are 'culled' <from healthcare> are done so because it's unaffordable. The old (the society in a gov't run healthcare system can't afford it), those not deemed desperately ill (the society with gov't run healthcare can't afford it), the poor (neither systems can afford it) and those with pre-existing conditions (previous healthcare system to gov't run healthcare couldn't afford it).

 

[cabse5]

It's a metaphor. The system acts as a panel in which natural "culling" occurs. Whereas an literal panel will sit around and select who gets the transplant and whether or not people can slip to the front of a line, our insurance and pharmaceutical system demands a certain economic situation for proper care. Those who aren't at that economic level are stuck looking for "free" clinics and emergency rooms for limited care, but still face pharmaceutical prices that hey can't afford. Plenty enough die within this system.

Further: those "free" clinics are paid for by tax dollars that the average American, to include the poor, pays. In that respect, we are already within a socialized system. But in our system, hundred billion dollar companies don't pay taxes. This places all the burden on the average American who can afford his health insurance and medicine...and still pays the taxes that go towards "free" clinics, hospitals, emergency rooms, and ambulance companies who look to the government to compensate.

Our thinking is very wrong -headed because conservatives have been led down a road that leaves them ignoring a great deal about our system.

ER, I meant to type some in every healthcare system can't afford healthcare....:roll:

 

[JustHanging]

And just a few days ago, there were leftwing posters here on DP assuring us that countries with universal healthcare and guaranteed sick leave would see no deaths.

Sure they did. Sure they did.

Unfortunately, reality has spoken and will only get louder.

Not in your posts, they're pure Trumpian fantasy.

 

[Divine_Wind]

Proving... healthcare is not a right, nor has it ever been one.

This for people who have paid into their system their whole life... to be denied.

True about healthcare. Still, it'll make an awesome campaign motto for Trump.

 

[JustHanging]

When Canada starts to collapse, we'll be there for you. Don't worry.

No thank you, I value freedom too much to want to live in a Banana Republic like the USA, where a leader is above the law and can scam money from children with cancer. I understand that that's what Republicans support, that this is their thing, but it's not mine.

 

[zimmer]

Well... it seems the Left has proven the fact over and over in this thread... from start to finish... That Healthcare is not a Right.

For any Leftists who would like to try to rebut this obvious fact... please have at it.

PS. Soon I’ll be posting this thread in my Blog for easy reference... so when someone claims healthcare is a Right, they can read how the most ardent Leftists helped reveal... over and over... it is not one.

I thank my Leftist friends here for helping clarify... healthcare is not a Right.

 

[RetiredUSN]

Have you never heard of 'triage' ? And, you're wrong, health care is a right.

It's a right until it's not evidently.

 

[cabse5]

So... healthcare is not a Right.

That was the sole purpose of this thread... to drive that point home... because claiming it as such is insanity... and a lie.

Glad you agree.

Lots of rhetoric in healthcare. Healthcare as a right is rhetoric since advocates for this right don't provide a healthcare system which offers healthcare to everyone. Death panels exist in all types of healthcare.

 

[cabse5]

Well, of course it screwed up. For three months our health officials and our health departments have had to struggle against Trump's ego, who single-handily crippled our response. In the meantime, countries in Europe, with their socialized health care, began issuing test kits. I guarantee that our numbers are going to exponentially rise as soon as we are able to test at least on the level of those socialized countries.



You have this backwards on two counts. First, Trump just declared a state of emergency, proving that government needs to get involved. And second, the "Leftists" have been working with Republicans and Big Business since the 1990s to reverse FDR's New Deal. What problems have "leftists" created?

- Reagan and Bush I supplied the rhetoric, exacerbated the S&L bust (in which banks took over), and politicized the movement.

- Clinton signed the two key pieces of legislation that dismantled Glass-Steagall, which existed to protect capitalism from itself by separating, once again, the banks that lend money to the average Joe and banks that play the Market with big money.

- Bush II exacerbated the housing bubble by offering tax-cuts and subsidies to corporations and banks, mainly Citigroup as it gambled the average Joe's bad, risky loans on the Market.

- Obama, after correctly explaining what happened, merely hired Clinton's de-regulation team and kept the party going, working with Bush II to create bail-outs to those who declared that they didn't need regulated.

- Trump freed corporations from paying taxes.

In the end, Big Business won and the "Leftists" helped. It was Clinton who recognized that Republicans shouldn't get all the corporate funding for campaigns and thus jumped on the Reagan Revolution band wagon. The Great Recession proved the Reagan Revolution a failure and the fact that banks need supervision because the greed to create money will always push organizations to gamble more and more. All the while the two main architects, Phil and Wendy Gramm, worked for Reagan, Clinton, and Bush (with Wendy jumping ship to work on the board of Enron before the bust). So what have the "leftist" done over the last 60 years that has you riled up all the time?

Not Trump's ego. Trump was trying to pacify the herd mentality. Trump lost.

 

[cabse5]

True about healthcare. Still, it'll make an awesome campaign motto for Trump.

Your meme is confused. It's gov't run healthcare which will kill off all the old people.

 

[cabse5]

Have you never heard of 'triage' ? And, you're wrong, health care is a right.

Healthcare as a right is a political talking point meant to garner votes. It is not reality.

 

[Divine_Wind]

Your meme is confused. It's gov't run healthcare which will kill off all the old people.

.....annnnnd who runs the government? This guy:

 

[Divine_Wind]

Where is the right to healthcare in a pandemic?

First, a pandemic makes it a national security issue.

Second, Healthcare is, indeed, a right, but no one has the right to make others pay for it. There is a national security interest that people are vaccinated, have both preventive medicine and natal care. There is not a national security concern for heart transplants, liposuction or anything that doesn't affect the nation as a whole.

 

[cabse5]

First, a pandemic makes it a national security issue.

Second, Healthcare is, indeed, a right, but no one has the right to make others pay for it. There is a national security interest that people are vaccinated, have both preventive medicine and natal care. There is not a national security concern for heart transplants, liposuction or anything that doesn't affect the nation as a whole.

I can't get past the idea you think healthcare is a right and you also think you're right libertarian. Help me out.

 

[MSgt]

As most things in this pandemic, the fed is just trying to curb the herd mentality. They've failed miserably. EDIT: How could they not fail? It's getting in whether we like it or not. END OF EDIT> With one hand Trump closes borders and with the other hand Trump declares a national crisis.

They all look bad because the White House consistently played this down against those who were obviously right all along. His Wednesday speech was a disaster that made a bad situation even worse, thus Friday's speech was absolutely about personal re-election damage control and nothing else. We can say this because, despite issuing the emergency order, he went on to declare that he would not take a test while his idiot son-in-law declared that this is not so much a health reality.

But now that Trump is playing the leader in his USA hat (not a MAGA hat) he is trying to present a persona that he is personally all over this for America because "Obama's" system had failed. The man has based his entire presidency on an anti-Obama agenda and clinging to false credit for the economic trend he inherited. From this, his cult has created a symbiotic relationship where these twin things help them all ignore everything else, thus reality.

- Trump stupidly gutted the entire global-health-security unit of the National Security Council, along with eliminating the US government's $30m Complex Crises Fund. What was once a celebration for being anti-Obama has turned into something that he pretends not to know anything about. The system was set up to immediately launch into react mode, before Trump sleazed into the White House.

- There is no way that he wasn't a part of the CDC rejecting the World Health Organization's approved kits back in January as the rest of the world was taking them. One has to believe that he is completely oblivious of his White House, which is contrary to his own description of himself, or he was involved. From here one might speculate on things such as his anti-internationalism, his rejection of international organizations, and his intense focus to please corporation, for which he praised one during his emergency declaration last Friday as its stock went through the roof.

- After accusing Democrats and the world's media, for a couple months, of just "trying to hurt him" for their exaggeration of this virus, while he wore a "vote-for-me" hat to a crisis center, he now declares a state of emergency in a USA hat in order to imply that he has been with us all along and that he is a true commander-in-chief...while playing his blame-Obama game in order to deny himself his failed responsibilities.


* And what did we see with this "emergency?" Prior to him acknowledging (without actually acknowledging) that he was wrong, it was Democrats in Congress and Republicans in heavily-affected states that had been urging Trump to issue the order. It was only after he presented public diarrhea in his Wednesday speech that saw the Stock Market sink even deeper, thus signaling that his concern was not the American people, but Stocks, thus his re-election. We discovered that it was Pelosi & Co. that had reached a deal with Trump on a package to assist people affected by the outbreak, which included two weeks of paid sick leave, up to three months of paid family and medical leave, free virus testing for those without insurance, and food aid. That is a **** ton of socialism.

Prior to this, conservatives raged and raged about "socialism" and how government health programs in Europe is why they are having difficulty. Considering that they have long had kits and have been addressing this since January, this is an ignorant assessment. But most shocking is how Trump has embraced socialism as a remedy, thus copying European systems; and his constituency are completely ignoring it. Once again, we see their blind devotion to Trump forcing them to contradict who they think they are as they scramble about to re-define themselves to accommodate his latest behavior.

And the truly sad thing, in regards to re-election dreams, is that Trump really flushed an obviously golden opportunity here. Had he come out in January in his USA hat and spoke to the world about how we have to work together to aggressively attack this new unknown virus, he would have injected global confidence in America, injected confidence in the global Markets, and calmed people who were looking for honesty and answers. But Trump allowed his ego to once again lead the way and he blundered once again. Now he is trying to do what he should have done three months ago and his faithful cult is pretending that history began on Friday when he signed the emergency order.

 

[MSgt]

SIAP. This pandemic will prove any healthcare, anywhere, will not be able to handle it.

Considering that the majority of people who contract it are fine, I think the greater issue is just wrapping our heads around this new virus. Pretending that it's nothing sure hasn't helped. We have seen extremes:

- On one hand we an American President acting like everybody is just going to sneeze it away and that it will simply disappear on its own.

- On the other hand we have people trying to keep up with the panickers because they might need to take a crap tomorrow.

There is a middle ground that should have been allowed to triumph from the beginning. I mean Bush reacted properly enough when it came to Katrina and could honestly declare that FEMA (and other local and federal systems that prevented wider military assistance) was a mess. But Trump?

- He ridiculed Puerto Rico's leaders, acted like Puerto Rico owed us, and then callously tossed around a paper towel roll in which many people took as a belittling. Throughout that crisis he flipped back and forth trying to re-invent his behavior in order to imply that he does care.

- Now we see a global crisis in which he tried tremendously hard to callously dismiss, only now to try to re-invent his behavior into a persona who cares about USA.

In my 47 years of life, and my twenty-years as a Marine, I have never seen such bad leadership in a single person like this. I can compare him to only one other person and that person wound up disgraced for needlessly endangering Marines in Iraq for personal gain and for committing adultery and fraternization.

 

[apdst]

No thank you, I value freedom too much to want to live in a Banana Republic like the USA, where a leader is above the law and can scam money from children with cancer. I understand that that's what Republicans support, that this is their thing, but it's not mine.

Does your PM still do blackface? :lamo

 

[MSgt]

Where is the right to healthcare in a pandemic?

I don't think the "right" to health care was ever the correct argument because it allows people to cling to the Constitution as the end-all, be-all of human existence. It is a moral issue, and one that the wealthiest nation in history pretends is too costly.

But in terms of legality, I would argue that even Abraham Lincoln preferred an America that defined itself in accordance to the Declaration of Independence, not the Constitution. After all, it was the Constitution, not the Declaration, that codified slavery.

- "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness" is a the well-known phrase in the Declaration. The phrase gives three examples of the "unalienable rights" which the Declaration says have been given to all humans by their creator, and which governments are created to protect. So, how can we pretend that improper health care robs people of life? If God gave life to people, how can people choose to deny health care and call it right? How can we pursue happiness if we are struggling to afford astronomically priced health care and medicine, with plenty having to leave the health of their loved ones to chance?

Our capitalist system, run amuck and unregulated, have created great economic disasters for the world, the obvious being the Great Depression and the Great Recession. Greed has long been at the heart of denying people their happiness. And it is greed that has allowed corporations to flourish as "citizens" who pay zero taxes today. It is our busted idea of capitalist liberty that produces people who shrug at an American system that leaves tax-paying citizens stranded when it comes to health care, because our health care industry is first defended as a capitalist venture.

I would submit that it is our engineered perverted and warped ideologies that create the environments that make a mockery of our Declaration.

 

[Risky Thicket]

The US has by far the most ICU beds per 1000 population. When you make it lucrative they get built in abundance, when you make it mandatory you get the bare minimum.

What you are describing is called disaster capitalism. Disaster capitalism includes viewing the population as consumers rather than citizens. There is a distinction when maximum profit is the God of all things.

 

[jmotivator]

What you are describing is called disaster capitalism. Disaster capitalism includes viewing the population as consumers rather than citizens. There is a distinction when maximum profit is the God of all things.

Sooooo... you are so far down the socialist rabbit hole that having too few ICU beds in time of crisis is preferable to having enough because... why?