Elderly Will Be Denied Intensive Care as Coronavirus Overwhelms Italy's National Health System, Expe

[mrdeltoid]

Whataboutism.

#orange man bad

 

[apdst]

One has nothing to do with the other. Here's a metaphor: We spend hundreds of billions on our military and we can't win a war against tribesmen. "How well did all that spending work out?"

And all that socialized medicine has delivered test kits, hasn't it? Where's your test kit?

How much good did test kits do in Italy?

 

[MSgt]

"Our system" hasn't been that simple-minded for sometime, perhaps for the last century or more. More recently in the 1980s Reagan mandated treatment at emergency rooms for anyone, there still are thousands of federal primary care health clinics, county public hospitals, and now "heath insurance" for anyone who applies - along with full boat subsidies for those who truly "can't afford" health insurance.

So please, the arcane cliché's are no longer worth the time it takes to write them.

Medical panels continue to exist because supply is limited. This is why there are lines for transplants and panels have to approve through selection. There is nothing arcane about this. And a century is 1000 years. You are being over-zealous in your dismissal.

And Reagan's mandate is exactly why the country needs a health program. Hospitals recoup their losses by padding bills to insurance companies, which make our premiums higher. Hospitals also bill the government to compensate, which comes from our tax dollars. It ain't free. Connect the dots.

 

[MSgt]

Given the numbers they are saying that it will cost no we can't.

All we have to do is make hundred billion dollar companies pay their taxes and stop toileting funds towards bloated Defense contracts. The trick here is to see what we actually have versus what we **** away needlessly. Yes, we can afford it easily. Or are we really that petrified that our 12 highly technological aircraft carriers can't handle China's 2?

 

[BlueTex]

Health Experts Worry Coronavirus Will Overwhelm America’s GoFundMe System

 

[MSgt]

How is inability to afford insurance a "panel"?

It's a metaphor. The system acts as a panel in which natural "culling" occurs. Whereas an literal panel will sit around and select who gets the transplant and whether or not people can slip to the front of a line, our insurance and pharmaceutical system demands a certain economic situation for proper care. Those who aren't at that economic level are stuck looking for "free" clinics and emergency rooms for limited care, but still face pharmaceutical prices that hey can't afford. Plenty enough die within this system.

Further: those "free" clinics are paid for by tax dollars that the average American, to include the poor, pays. In that respect, we are already within a socialized system. But in our system, hundred billion dollar companies don't pay taxes. This places all the burden on the average American who can afford his health insurance and medicine...and still pays the taxes that go towards "free" clinics, hospitals, emergency rooms, and ambulance companies who look to the government to compensate.

Our thinking is very wrong -headed because conservatives have been led down a road that leaves them ignoring a great deal about our system.

 

[ClaraD]

Someone else is paying. That is called insurance usually. You buy it, and it is activated when needed. With a free market, costs go down and services improve and increase.

Government has never produced an efficient program that has come anywhere close to its predictions for service or costs... and they get corrupted. And when they tell you to **** off... you have no recourse. One small example is the Obama Whopper... “if you like your Doctor, you can keep your Doctor”. No you couldn’t... and the government was telling you so, and waving at you with one finger.

Just look at the Federal Bureaucracy ****ing up the ability to get quick and effective testing. When the Feds **** up... we ALL pay dearly... if a small segment does ( a state or county)... it can be corrected far quicker. The added benefit is there are scores of dozens of experiments going on simultaneously... and each fine point of a system can be adopted faster by others. Not so with the Feds and their ****ing lazy, corrupt bureaucrats.

Look at Canada’s broken system, or the Swede’s or NHS in the UK.

Free markets are the best by far. By far... they serve humanity best over the short and longterm.


Wishing you the best with your treatments.

someone else is paying for your social security and medicare too...are you turning in that check instead of collecting it?

 

[ClaraD]

You admit there is a Death Panel... you just do not like the term.

Triage... a nice word for Death Panel.

triage[ tree-ahzh ]
noun
the process of sorting victims, as of a battle or disaster, to determine medical priority in order to increase the number of survivors.

Or put another way... Some people are not worth the effort at this time and are left to suffer and die; Death Panel.

Triage has existed in this country since Medicine started...it isn't a death panel, it is the way medicine works....you wanted a free market,deal with the consequences of it.

 

[ClaraD]

Doesn’t change the fact... it underscores it. Healthcare is not a Right.

actually, health care is a right thus why you cannot be denied receiving services when you go into an ER based on ability to pay.

 

[Lord of Planar]

oh really? That ACA you call broken is why I am alive. My ACA through Molina Healthcare costs $21 a month. I have zero out of pocket for primary care, Specialist visits cost me $10, Urgent care $0 and an ER visit 25%. My prescription drugs for Tier 1 is ZERO and I have zero deductible. I received thousands of dollars of medical care that I could not have afforded when I was fighting stage 3 cancer. They are still paying for my quarterly visits including a scan once a year to make sure that my cancer doesn't return. They pay for medicine that I have to take to live. Without that medication I would survive quite miserably for maybe six months. So the failure that you see is something that seems pretty damn successful to me and quite a few others.

Meanwhile, my healthcare premiums doubled, so I can help you pay for yours.

 

[ClaraD]

Meanwhile, my healthcare premiums doubled, so I can help you pay for yours.

that is the way insurance works...and my son is going to pay for yours when you get sick...oh well, it is how insurance works.

 

[Lord of Planar]

that is the way insurance works...and my son is going to pay for yours when you get sick...oh well, it is how insurance works.

Except if I cancel mine, I get penalized.

 

[MSgt]

Though comedy (one of the all-time great comedies)... the case made by the civil servant about the benefits of smoking to the government is true. As is my statement about private enterprise vs. government... reiterated below.

The series is based in reality... they had brilliant writers, but also two inside government sources who fed them the realities and many, many stories. Stuff the writers claimed they would never have imagined writing because it was so absurd, but actually happened.



As stated earlier, private companies do not want their customers to die...

Government on the other hand doesn’t care... and if it reduces costs by people dying earlier... it benefits the state by reducing expenditures.

Ah, now you're talking. I see your point now. I went in another direction. You are clearly stating that in order for private industry to thrive, it must have customers, thus dying is bad for business, thus they "care." This is certainly true and it smacks a bit of common sense across my face.

But where reality shows this to be a truism, reality also shows that this is not. Plenty of people discovered that they had no real insurance once the Universal Health Care Act exposed their policies (hence a lot of them not being able to keep their insurance). And plenty who have decent insurance still get screwed by coverage. If they truly cared, they would cover everything. But health insurance is a business and businesses don't thrive on sentiment. Thus, in business terms, insurance companies weigh those who are good for economic longevity versus those who are economic burdens.

This is where the argument about government stepping in can ensure that tax-paying citizens aren't exposed to malicious handling and health exploitation. Like I stated earlier, each system has its problems to solve. But before simply dismissing socialized medicine because of the messes that some Europeans have produced, one should acknowledge that those messy systems exist among a people who refuse to pay taxes, demand more pay, and demand less hours. And when we scoff at Europe, we always seem to ignore the successes in Switzerland, Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, and even Belgium. France is not the defining epitome of government health care.

 

[Taylor]

It's a metaphor. The system acts as a panel in which natural "culling" occurs.

Right. So it's not actually a death panel. It's a "death panel" in the same sense that getting eaten by a shark or falling off a ladder acts as a "death panel."

As with the shark and the ladder, smart people should take precautions to avoid unecessary exposure to such systems.

 

[MSgt]

And, unfortunately, those who are 'culled' are those who can't afford it. The old (OK, the society can't afford it), those not deemed desperately ill (again, society can't afford it), the poor (both healthcare systems can't afford it) and those with pre-existing conditions (previous healthcare system couldn't afford it).

This is what leaves me scratching my head about some Americans. They will scream and scream that we, the wealthiest nation in human history, are too poor to take care of tax-paying citizens. In the meantime:

- They will ignore that over 90 of the Fortune 500 paid 0% taxes in 2018, because this interferes with their busted Trickle-Down economic ideology.

- They will ignore the very gross and obnoxious spending that we do on Defense, because it interferes with their blind ideology on military preparedness.

- They will ignore that many Americans can't afford health insurance and medicines, because it interferes with their ideology on minimum wage.

From this corporate worship, this ignorance of our military, and this idea that one should just get a better job, they default to the notion that we are simply too poor to take care of our tax-paying citizens. This is wrong-headed thinking. I'm all about a capitalist system. It's one of the reasons we are the wealthiest and most powerful nation in human history. But we don't have to be so damn stupid about it.

 

[ClaraD]

Except if I cancel mine, I get penalized.

no, you don't. The only penalty is you will now have to pay cash,even for catastrophic health care.

How much do you pay for premiums? Instead of paying those you probably would be paying around 5% of your income for subsidized health care that is as good, if not better than what you have now...

 

[MSgt]

How much good did test kits do in Italy?

That's an easy one:

- I has delivered a more appropriate number of the infected, which increased awareness about its spread, which increased the urgency to discover more about this Virus.

- In our country, the lack of testing has left us clueless about just how many are infected and spreading it, which has allowed Trump to continually scoff at health officials, which has exacerbated our lack of response.

Do you see how ignorance isn't actually bliss? This is like refusing to look at satellite photos about an enemy's formation because you don't want the numbers to be high. In the meantime, you are doing your own military no favors. Do you see this?

 

[zimmer]

So if US hospitals have to make the same decision because they run out of resources to treat everyone, what will you say then?

You know, triage.

Triage? The Death Panels will decide who gets what, who lives, who suffers and who dies. If healthcare was a Right, it would be distributed equally regardless... increasing the chances of survival of those denied care under the current Death Panel system.

Thanks again for making my point. Healthcare is not a Right.

PS. You should look up the word triage, and then apply the maxim of the great thinker Jacob Jacobi... who stated... “invert, always invert”.

 

[zimmer]

That's an easy one:

- I has delivered a more appropriate number of the infected, which increased awareness about its spread, which increased the urgency to discover more about this Virus.

- In our country, the lack of testing has left us clueless about just how many are infected and spreading it, which has allowed Trump to continually scoff at health officials, which has exacerbated our lack of response.

Do you see how ignorance isn't actually bliss? This is like refusing to look at satellite photos about an enemy's formation because you don't want the numbers to be high. In the meantime, you are doing your own military no favors. Do you see this?

So you are admitting the Federal bureaucracy ****ed up?

Good.

When Leftists realize the Federal government is neither flexible nor caring... and the free market is far more so... exponentially... we might be able to solve a lot of problems created by the Left during the past 60-years... with their drive to federalize everything.

 

[zimmer]

Ah, now you're talking. I see your point now. I went in another direction. You are clearly stating that in order for private industry to thrive, it must have customers, thus dying is bad for business, thus they "care." This is certainly true and it smacks a bit of common sense across my face.

But where reality shows this to be a truism, reality also shows that this is not. Plenty of people discovered that they had no real insurance once the Universal Health Care Act exposed their policies (hence a lot of them not being able to keep their insurance). And plenty who have decent insurance still get screwed by coverage. If they truly cared, they would cover everything. But health insurance is a business and businesses don't thrive on sentiment. Thus, in business terms, insurance companies weigh those who are good for economic longevity versus those who are economic burdens.

This is where the argument about government stepping in can ensure that tax-paying citizens aren't exposed to malicious handling and health exploitation. Like I stated earlier, each system has its problems to solve. But before simply dismissing socialized medicine because of the messes that some Europeans have produced, one should acknowledge that those messy systems exist among a people who refuse to pay taxes, demand more pay, and demand less hours. And when we scoff at Europe, we always seem to ignore the successes in Switzerland, Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, and even Belgium. France is not the defining epitome of government health care.

Your analysis in the opening paragraph is spot on. Wish I’d made it clear the first time.

Cheers.

The problems with private insurance pales with that of government. You cannot **** the customer and stay in business.

Sweden is not a healthcare success. Nor are the others. In Sweden they had a series called Angry Doctor... it illustrated how sick their system is.

Nothing beats the free market. It is not perfect, but it is the best of all alternatives... like Democracy itself.

PS. there are a lot of clips from that series... Yes Minister... it is hilarious... and sadly all too true. I love the EU bit they did.

Cheers.

 

[MSgt]

Right. So it's not actually a death panel. It's a "death panel" in the same sense that getting eaten by a shark or falling off a ladder acts as a "death panel."

As with the shark and the ladder, smart people should take precautions to avoid unecessary exposure to such systems.

If you go back and look, I placed death panels in quotes.

No, falling off a ladder is an accident. It is not a system that sets you up to fall unless every other rung holds a surprise that makes it harder for you to negotiate a climb.

And our country is full of smart, hard working people who have jobs in industries that do not permit them to afford health insurance or medicines. Wasn't it Wal-Mart that produced a budget to its employees on how to live on their salaries...but forgot food? And the idea that "he should just get a better job" has never been realistic for two reasons:

- A capitalist system must acknowledge that this means the existence (and probable necessity) of economic classes and multiple low-paying, high-paying industries of all ages. You think the salary of that twenty-year old is set up for a budget that includes health insurance?

- A democratic and republican democracy should acknowledge that all classes deserve proper health care, especially if it collects taxes.

So, one can't argue against a minimum wage and then turn around and tell people to just get a better job as if their job is not necessary. One can't promote capitalism and then shrug off those in the lower classes that help that capitalism thrive. All of this is a circular argument meant to help ignore the reality and cling to busted and wrong-headed ideologies. In the meantime, those who cant afford health insurance and medicines turn to government anyway.

 

[zimmer]

We have ALWAYS had "death panels"... We don't have unlimited medical resources... How about we just put a cap on Medicare based on what you have paid your entire life. We can set market prices for the medical services you receive and when you hit your cap, you're done...

So... healthcare is not a Right.

That was the sole purpose of this thread... to drive that point home... because claiming it as such is insanity... and a lie.

Glad you agree.

 

[MSgt]

So you are admitting the Federal bureaucracy ****ed up?

Good.

Well, of course it screwed up. For three months our health officials and our health departments have had to struggle against Trump's ego, who single-handily crippled our response. In the meantime, countries in Europe, with their socialized health care, began issuing test kits. I guarantee that our numbers are going to exponentially rise as soon as we are able to test at least on the level of those socialized countries.

When Leftists realize the Federal government is neither flexible nor caring... and the free market is far more so... exponentially... we might be able to solve a lot of problems created by the Left during the past 60-years... with their drive to federalize everything.

You have this backwards on two counts. First, Trump just declared a state of emergency, proving that government needs to get involved. And second, the "Leftists" have been working with Republicans and Big Business since the 1990s to reverse FDR's New Deal. What problems have "leftists" created?

- Reagan and Bush I supplied the rhetoric, exacerbated the S&L bust (in which banks took over), and politicized the movement.

- Clinton signed the two key pieces of legislation that dismantled Glass-Steagall, which existed to protect capitalism from itself by separating, once again, the banks that lend money to the average Joe and banks that play the Market with big money.

- Bush II exacerbated the housing bubble by offering tax-cuts and subsidies to corporations and banks, mainly Citigroup as it gambled the average Joe's bad, risky loans on the Market.

- Obama, after correctly explaining what happened, merely hired Clinton's de-regulation team and kept the party going, working with Bush II to create bail-outs to those who declared that they didn't need regulated.

- Trump freed corporations from paying taxes.

In the end, Big Business won and the "Leftists" helped. It was Clinton who recognized that Republicans shouldn't get all the corporate funding for campaigns and thus jumped on the Reagan Revolution band wagon. The Great Recession proved the Reagan Revolution a failure and the fact that banks need supervision because the greed to create money will always push organizations to gamble more and more. All the while the two main architects, Phil and Wendy Gramm, worked for Reagan, Clinton, and Bush (with Wendy jumping ship to work on the board of Enron before the bust). So what have the "leftist" done over the last 60 years that has you riled up all the time?

 

[zimmer]

Well, of course it screwed up. For three months our health officials and our health departments have had to struggle against Trump's ego, who single-handily crippled our response. In the meantime, countries in Europe, with their socialized health care, began issuing test kits. I guarantee that our numbers are going to exponentially rise as soon as we are able to test at least on the level of those socialized countries.

”The system is not really geared to what we need right now, what you are asking for. That is a failing,” Fauci, who heads the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, told lawmakers on the House Oversight Committee. “It is a failing. I mean, let’s admit it.”

“You put it out in the public and a physician asks for it and you get it. The idea of anybody getting it easily, the way people in other countries are doing it, we’re not set for that,” Fauci said. “Do I think we should be? Yes, but we are not.”

Fauci says US coronavirus testing response is 'failing'

Trump rips CDC, blames Obama for slow response to coronavirus

The guy who has slashed red tape is responsible for the failures of the CDC because of his “ego”. ROTFLOL... that’s absurd.

Obama was the guy who filled the register with thousands upon thousands of regulations. Trump said for every new one he would cut two. He’s cut something like 23 for every new one.

The problem, as Dr. Fauci explained is the CDC was caught unprepared, and there were too many regulations. These have NOW been slashed... eliminated. Trump campaigned on slashing regulations... so you accusation is once again... absurd.

So... Lesson 1:

When the Feds run the show and **** up... as they have... it harms everyone.

Lesson 2:

Red tape kills. It kills initiative in business, and it kills speed & flexibility.

You have this backwards on two counts. First, Trump just declared a state of emergency, proving that government needs to get involved. And second, the "Leftists" have been working with Republicans and Big Business since the 1990s to reverse FDR's New Deal. What problems have "leftists" created?

I never said the government did not need to be involved, but it would be better if the Feds were coordinators rather than running it all.

Leftists regulate everything to death.

I’m not saying there shouldn’t regulation... there should be... BUT... it shouldn’t be created by these faceless organizations we do not vote for or know who is running them. Congress should set regulation, and this means what?

1. Congress writes and passes law... not faceless bureaucrats.

2. Drive decisions to the state and local levels as much as possible.

3. Limit the reach of government... eliminate a lot of these wasteful bureaucracies.

 

[MSgt]

So... Lesson 1:

When the Feds run the show and **** up... as they have... it harms everyone.

Lesson 2:

Red tape kills. It kills initiative in business, and it kills speed & flexibility.

You are determined to learn all the wrong lessons:

- The guy responsible for the failures is the guy who sought to satisfy an anti-Obama agenda by gutting, in 2017, the entire global-health-security unit of the National Security Council, along with eliminating the US government's $30m Complex Crises Fund, went on to deny WHO's January test kits in 2020, and then went on an anti-health official rampage while wearing a MAGA hat. And when he finally declared a national emergency (in a USA hat), he did so without actually admitting that he had been wrong all along. Here is that ego. In the meantime, Trump's emergency declaration involved an announcement that 1.4 million new tests for the coronavirus would be available next week and that 5 million would be available within the next month. He said his administration was working with drug companies and retailers to develop drive-through testing locations. He said the emergency action would "unleash the full power of the federal government." Seems socialist as **** to me.

- The guy who said our system is not geared for this is talking about a system that no longer has a global-health-security unit or a Complex Crisis Unit, with a President who has fought health officials for the last three months. Of course it was unprepared. And with Trump being President for three years, he no longer gets to pretend that its the last guys fault anymore. Since we are talking about a system that is capitalist and private in nature, he is right: our system is not set up for this. What the hell does that tell you about the European systems you senselessly criticize? The guy is talking about an American system that decided to cast WHO aside in order to create "American" test kits. In the meantime, it was Trump who denied even knowing anything about gutting tools from the CDC tool chest in 2017, continued to try to blame Democrats for what he largely created, and expects good loyalists to completely ignore the fact that he went from completely denying that there is a problem to completely embracing socialism in a single day.

You are still anti-socialism right? With Trump "unleashing the full power of the federal government" he is telling you that private industry failed and that government is stepping in. How are you flipping this around?
Of course, this disregards the fact that Trump's obstructionist agenda over the last three months somehow means that the government wasn't already involved in a negative way. Health officials in and outside our government kept trying to sound the alarm. They didn't fail. Trump did. And aren't you complaining about government-led systems in Europe? Trump merely announced what Europeans are already doing within their systems. In other words, Trump is setting our system aside in order to practice a little socialism.

Leftists regulate everything to death.

No, they don't. This is false propaganda spewed by right-wing outlets. As I showed you, it was Clinton who dismantled Glass-Steagall.

I’m not saying there shouldn’t regulation... there should be... BUT... it shouldn’t be created by these faceless organizations we do not vote for or know who is running them. Congress should set regulation, and this means what?

1. Congress writes and passes law... not faceless bureaucrats.

2. Drive decisions to the state and local levels as much as possible.

3. Limit the reach of government... eliminate a lot of these wasteful bureaucracies.

You don't seem to have a line or a topic in which regulation should be present. There is just this vague "the left" argument you always have.

It is Donald Trump who just stated that he is "unleashing the full power of the federal government." Is Trump a Leftist? Full power implies a whole lot of regulation and guidance. I think you have been parading this anti-left agenda around for so long that you aren't clear about what you are talking about anymore. It's an ideology that has no teeth because the Bolshevik Revolution occurred over a century ago. And when you rage against the "faceless," what do you think your constant "the left" is? Is a nameless, faceless, rage about an illusion.