Do you support Bernie Sanders' 32 hour work week proposal?

[Real blank]

Of course it's conceivable. Most people would like free pony rides too. Doesn't mean it's going to happen.

Ok, why shouldn’t it happen ? I not being facetious I haven’t much thought into this argument before and would like to hear both sides

 

[RF667799]

No chance of successfully starting a union, a condition designed by Republicans.

Anyway, I don't believe that you don't understand the reality of the situation. I do believe that you want to respond last. Go ahead.

Sorry, I really don't understand the situation. I believe it might be very hard to organize a union, but I don't know why you say it is impossible. I know the state across the river from me is right to work...and also has union workers. It was very hard for my grandfathers and their brothers in solidarity as well. It didn't happen overnight, and it came at the cost of blood on both sides. But nobody was going to give them unions.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Other, but no.

Since employers would be prohibited from reducing their workers’ pay and benefits to match their lost hours, it amounts to a mandated (at least) 20% increase in labor costs. In typical Bernie Sanders ‘style’, he rants about “big corporations”, but federal labor laws apply to all employers.

 

[eman623]

Ok, why shouldn’t it happen ? I not being facetious I haven’t much thought into this argument before and would like to hear both sides

It would be a government intrusion into the right of free citizens to sell their labor.

I don't know how popular it would be either. Sure, people would like to work less, but would they also like to be paid 20% less?

Or maybe paychecks and benefits would remain the same in which case it would be inflationary and reduce productivity.

 

[Helix]

Sorry, I really don't understand the situation. I believe it might be very hard to organize a union, but I don't know why you say it is impossible. I know the state across the river from me is right to work...and also has union workers. It was very hard for my grandfathers and their brothers in solidarity as well. It didn't happen overnight, and it came at the cost of blood on both sides. But nobody was going to give them unions.

Right to work for less and fire at will. You'll be fired if you try to form a union, but it will be for a different reason. Some of the well established unions have managed to survive, but they are eroding. Cross that river and give it a shot yourself. Learning by doing is usually an effective teaching tool.

 

[Real blank]

It would be a government intrusion into the right of free citizens to sell their labor.

I don't know how popular it would be either. Sure, people would like to work less, but would they also like to be paid 20% less?

Or maybe paychecks and benefits would remain the same in which case it would be inflationary and reduce productivity.

A business would have to make it work if their raw materials became more expensive so if their Human Resources became more expensive what’s the difference?

 

[RF667799]

Right to work for less and fire at will. You'll be fired if you try to form a union, but it will be for a different reason. Some of the well established unions have managed to survive, but they are eroding. Cross that river and give it a shot yourself. Learning by doing is usually an effective teaching tool.

My own state is an at will state. I believe virtually all of them are.

I'm a union member already. Through my working life I've been a member of four unions. I appreciate the blood that was shed by my grandfathers and their brothers to give me that. And it was given to me. I'm not sure that I myself would have that drive to organize, nor - most critically- could enough likewise union minded workers be found to organize these days.

I dunno...do you talk unionism and solidarity with your co-workers? Are they at all interested, or more complacent?

I've heard it said around the hall that a company that gets a union, deserved it. Maybe yours doesn't?

 

[eman623]

A business would have to make it work if their raw materials became more expensive so if their Human Resources became more expensive what’s the difference?

Depends on the reason for the increase. If the raw materials are more expensive because of supply and demand, then that's just how the world works.

OTOH, if the government is taxing the raw materials and increasing their price, then that's not just how the world works. That's government changing the rules because shut up!

 

[noonereal]

OTOH, if the government is taxing the raw materials and increasing their price, then that's not just how the world works. That's government changing the rules because we said so, so shut up!
[benefit.
You realize that the "government" answers to the people and acts for the greater good, right?

Good ****in God. What a post.

 

[eman623]

noonereal said::​

You realize that the "government" answers to the people and acts for the greater good, right?

Good ****in God. What a post.

Now who's being naive Kay?

You are obviously unfamiliar with Jerry Pournelle's Iron Law of Bureaucracy.

"In any bureaucracy, the people devoted to the benefit of the bureaucracy itself always get in control and those dedicated to the goals that the bureaucracy is supposed to accomplish have less and less influence, and sometimes are eliminated entirely."

 

[Hamish Howl]

Now who's being naive Kay?

You are obviously unfamiliar with Jerry Pournelle's Iron Law of Bureaucracy.

"In any bureaucracy, the people devoted to the benefit of the bureaucracy itself always get in control and those dedicated to the goals that the bureaucracy is supposed to accomplish have less and less influence, and sometimes are eliminated entirely."

Jerry Pournelle was also convinced that America would be a series of giant welfare blocks by 1990.

Well, he was 4% right. Kentucky and Tennessee.

 

[Hamish Howl]

Depends on the reason for the increase. If the raw materials are more expensive because of supply and demand, then that's just how the world works.

OTOH, if the government is taxing the raw materials and increasing their price, then that's not just how the world works. That's government changing the rules because shut up!

Because we all know you can run a nation with no revenue.

 

[Helix]

My own state is an at will state. I believe virtually all of them are.

I'm a union member already. Through my working life I've been a member of four unions. I appreciate the blood that was shed by my grandfathers and their brothers to give me that. And it was given to me. I'm not sure that I myself would have that drive to organize, nor - most critically- could enough likewise union minded workers be found to organize these days.

I dunno...do you talk unionism and solidarity with your co-workers? Are they at all interested, or more complacent?

I've heard it said around the hall that a company that gets a union, deserved it. Maybe yours doesn't?

You won't really understand it until you work a career in a right to work for less state. It's more than just not being able to have a union, too. There's all sorts of other fun anti-worker things to navigate. Have I talked unions with my coworkers? Yes. Some floated the idea of forming one. I told them what I told you.

 

[StarvedForChange]

Bernie's Proposal

You can read the proposal above, but here is the basic functions:

- The standard work week is 32 hours per week, instead of the 40 hour work week.
- Employers are not allowed to decrease wages or benefits.
- If you work more than 32 hours, you're required to get overtime pay.
- Less money, but more free time and (projected) higher productivity.
- Opponents argue that it will force employers to hire more people.
- Opponents argue it might be assembly-line work force.

Do you support or oppose this?

This has got to be a "Gen Z" thing. C'mon kids. Get to work! Once you get the first 30 years out of the way you'll get used ot it!

 

[eman623]

Because we all know you can run a nation with no revenue.

View attachment 67499351

Don't hurt yourself moving those goalposts.

 

[eman623]

Jerry Pournelle was also convinced that America would be a series of giant welfare blocks by 1990.

Ad hominum much?

 

[EdwinWillers]

They also can't tell me why it makes sense for Bezos to make $7 million an hour in 2023 sitting on his ass while his wages slaves are doing the actual work in the warehouse while having to piss in a bottle.

Well maybe if you get a hair and build your own version of Amazon, or some other company as big and profitable as it is - from the ground up, as Bezos did, then perhaps you can explain why you are paying yourself $7 million an hour like he is.

That, or maybe stfu and kowtow to your working "slaves" letting all of them decide instead what their pay and bennies ought to be based on their own personal, subjective needs. They could further demand the productivity of every worker be based on their ability - including you. Then you and your other good workers who aren't "needy" because you work so hard could not only bust tail while all your socialist komrades sit back on their lazy, needy dairy-aires, living off your paychecks as they sip their mint juleps and watch cartoons on their new large screen TVs.

The selfishness, envy and greed of the entitlement crowd is absolutely appalling.

 

[Hamish Howl]

Ad hominum much?

How is pointing out that he had some goofy ideas ad hominem?

He was a fantastic writer, but dead silly when it came to economics.

 

[Hamish Howl]

Don't hurt yourself moving those goalposts.

You brought it up.

 

[StarvedForChange]

The "it's a pay cut" people like to tell us we deserve less pay for less production, but can't explain why worker productivity is way more than what it used to be while wages stagnate.

They also can't tell me why it makes sense for Bezos to make $7 million an hour in 2023 sitting on his ass while his wages slaves are doing the actual work in the warehouse while having to piss in a bottle.

Yeah, but Bezos put in the work to get where he is working a lot more than 32/hours a week and I doubt he does works less than that now.

Now regarding Bernie? Bernie's in the Senate. Those ****ers have more time of and vacations with the best benefits imaginable. I like Bernie, but in this case, I'd appreciate it if he'd shut the **** up. I'm not a boss and I'm happy to work 12-hour days if I have to get ahead. I know I sound like a fossil, but I still have to say, "kids these days"

 

[ALiberalModerate]

Prices will go up to compensate. The crazed left never accounts for the circumstances created by crazy ideas.

Crazy ideas like banning child labor, weekends, overtime laws, a minimum wage, occupation safety, health care…

Oh those crazy liberal ideas

 

[ALiberalModerate]

Yeah, their why do I have to work, safe and invest to get ahead mentality.

The average Biden voting zip code had 11 times the GDP of the average Trump voting zip code. It is your team that is unproductive America.

 

[RF667799]

The average Biden voting zip code had 11 times the GDP of the average Trump voting zip code. It is your team that is unproductive America.

Party of the rich, I suppose.

 

[ALiberalModerate]

Party of the rich, I suppose.

Party of the productive. The wealthiest voters still voted Republican. 20 years ago, Republicans had a slight advantage with knowledge workers. Trump changed that by dumbing down the GOP so much that he drove them out and turned the party into the party of left behind, aggrieved America.

 

[RF667799]

You won't really understand it until you work a career in a right to work for less state. It's more than just not being able to have a union, too. There's all sorts of other fun anti-worker things to navigate. Have I talked unions with my coworkers? Yes. Some floated the idea of forming one. I told them what I told you.

Maybe our grandfathers were made of much sterner stuff. I'm including myself in that "less stern" category, as well. I've joked about "starvation wages" on the jobs...but that was jokes. My grandfathers and their fathers knew what the real thing was, and what companies playing at being minor tyrannies actually consisted of. They didn't complain that they didn't have a union.

They went and got a union.

So far as your "they gave up their unions for guns" thing; it doesn't apply. Those soldiers of organized labor had guns. They sometimes had to use them to get their union.

A childhood friend of mine had a Winchester lever action rifle hanging in his bedroom with his more mundane guns. It was a nearly as-new rifle model with octagon barrel chambered in .44-40. It was in such good condition for its age, because it had only been fired on one occasion, then brought home and hidden for decades. That occasion was the Virden Massacre.