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Do any "pro-lifers" care about the mothers and babies?

LOL, and you think every member of these churches strictly adheres to those prohibitions? You do know there are over 7 BILLION people in the world, right, and 330 million here in the US. So, yeah "most" is a little questionable.

I thought we were talking about the US membership in conservative Christian churches. Here are the membership numbers for the conservative Christians of the world whose official policy statement says that abortion is only if the mothers life is endangered. Pregnancy resulting from rape or incest do not warrant abortion.

1,200,000,000 Catholics.
11,000,000 Mormons
285,000,000 Evangelicals
584,080,000 Pentacostal and Charasmatic Conservative Christians
___________________
2,080,000,000= about 30% of the worlds population is conservative christian that want abortion banned and women punished for getting illegal abortions.
 
The stated purpose of the religious right is to overturn Roe and end legal abortions. That's smacks of theocracy not freedom of choice or freedom of religion.
Theocracy? :shock:

Two questions:
Could you admit, Roe v. Wade, is a large stretch of legal interpretation? That this ideally should have been decided by legislation, not SC?
Could you admit, pro-choice advocation does open us to de facto social engineering by the masses?
 
Unplanned does not mean unwanted.

That is correct. Many unplanned pregnancies result in parents getting excited about upcoming births; they simply did not intend to have a new baby nine months later. But the word "unplanned" is usually interchanged with "unwanted" so Bullseye is not wrong.
 
I thought we were talking about the US membership in conservative Christian churches. Here are the membership numbers for the conservative Christians of the world whose official policy statement says that abortion is only if the mothers life is endangered. Pregnancy resulting from rape or incest do not warrant abortion.

1,200,000,000 Catholics.
11,000,000 Mormons
285,000,000 Evangelicals
584,080,000 Pentacostal and Charasmatic Conservative Christians
___________________
2,080,000,000= about 30% of the worlds population is conservative christian that want abortion banned and women punished for getting illegal abortions.
And again do you assert that every member of those sects rigidly adheres to their sects doctrines?
 
It seems everyone who claims to be a pro-lifer is unable to provide a single shred of factual evidence that the mother's quality of life is completely irrelevant, then has no interest in what happens to the baby: abuse, neglect, lacking a home, never being adopted, etc. You are not a pro-lifer if all you care about is the mere existence of unwanted babies, not every baby's life. You know what can happen to babies who should not exist today because the mothers had tried to avoid getting pregnant nine months earlier. If you were taught anything about female puberty in school, you know girls can get pregnant when they are in fifth grade. If you ever suffered the problems pregnant women have literally every day just because they are pregnant, there is no reason to wish that on women who tried to avoid conceiving offspring. It is not about nine months versus a whole life, but nine months and a whole life.

The pro life objective is to save lives. The numbers of abortions are appalling and the reasons are overwhelming selfish one. The number of women who have abortions for medical reasons, rape or incest are very small. 4.3% of all abortions are for health of the mother, rape or incest. So over 95% of abortions are not for health reasons.
If I give you the 4.3% are you going to give me the rest?
 
Theocracy? :shock:

Two questions:
Could you admit, Roe v. Wade, is a large stretch of legal interpretation? That this ideally should have been decided by legislation, not SC?
Could you admit, pro-choice advocation does open us to de facto social engineering by the masses?

Roe v Wade: At the time every state had the right to make abortion legal and 22 states already had. Roe was not actually about abortion. It was about whether a state could deny woman the right to make a personal decision about her private life. The decision was based on precedent set by previous SC decisions that stated the 14th and 9th Amendments gave the people the freedom to make the personal decisions that defined who they were as persons. The SC decision was that the number of children women chose to bear was a personal decision about their private reproductive life and they therefor had the right to make a decision about wether to abort or not. Which meant indirectly that states could not deny the right to get an abortion. The text of deliberations and decision can be accessed through the Cornell Law Library site.

Almost every piece of legislation is social engineering. All laws change some aspect of the world we live in. Since there were about the same number of abortions before Roe as after I'm not sure that the masses are much changed other than fewer women have died because of illegal abortion.

I'm assuming from your previous post that you consider legal abortion a moral disaster that triggered equal rights, anti-discrimination laws, the destruction of the sanctity of heterosexual marriage, the denial of Christians' right to make everyone pray Christian prayers in public school, the the rise of the secular humanist anti-Christ, Democrats legislating their socialist-Marxist agenda, the tearing down of sacred monuments, the election of Nancy Pelosi and forcing of decent Christians to say Happy Holiday instead of Merry Christmas. I'm also pretty sure what ever I have said will be considered just immoral anti-Christian liberal lying.

Here's my question: since you don't want answers why do you ask questions?
 
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The pro life objective is to save lives. The numbers of abortions are appalling and the reasons are overwhelming selfish one. The number of women who have abortions for medical reasons, rape or incest are very small. 4.3% of all abortions are for health of the mother, rape or incest. So over 95% of abortions are not for health reasons.
If I give you the 4.3% are you going to give me the rest?

It depends on how you define "medical reason" for having an abortion. Some people say it is only if the mother would die without one. Not me - I count women who are at risk of suffering chronic physical damage as a result of pregnancy complications and if the fetus would die shortly after birth due to severe defects.
 
And again do you assert that every member of those sects rigidly adheres to their sects doctrines?

Of course they don't. But, don't kid yourself, the organizations (religions) they belong to are dedicated to banning abortion and they have lobbyists in DC pushing Congressmen and women to make abortion illegal whether the membership wants or supports banning or not.
 
Of course they don't. But, don't kid yourself, the organizations (religions) they belong to are dedicated to banning abortion and they have lobbyists in DC pushing Congressmen and women to make abortion illegal whether the membership wants or supports banning or not.
Hard core "no abortion ever" and "free abortions for all" believer cover about 14% on either end of the spectrum. In between this extremes are folks that see some compromise, e.g. rape, incest, health of mother, etc.
 
Hard core "no abortion ever" and "free abortions for all" believer cover about 14% on either end of the spectrum. In between this extremes are folks that see some compromise, e.g. rape, incest, health of mother, etc.

And you think the moderate 86% of the Catholic Church is driving the political agenda of the Church?
 
Let's see some of these "statistics, studies, and articles". Also, maybe we should replace the emotion-laden term "unwanted" with "unplanned".

Uh, no, we shouldn't. Children can be unwanted as well as unplanned. Forcing women to stay pregnant and give birth just because "they chose to have sex" is a really bad idea, especially for women who never wanted pregnancy or children in the first place.
 
And you think the moderate 86% of the Catholic Church is driving the political agenda of the Church?

Why would those who disagree with the political agenda of the church be driving it?

According to a Marist College Institute for Public Opinion's survey released in 2008, 36% of practising Catholics, defined as those who attend church at least twice a month, consider themselves "pro-choice"; while 65% of non-practicing Catholics considers themselves "pro-choice"
 
Uh, no, we shouldn't. Children can be unwanted as well as unplanned. Forcing women to stay pregnant and give birth just because "they chose to have sex" is a really bad idea, especially for women who never wanted pregnancy or children in the first place.
If they "never wanted children or pregnancy" why didn't they that the proper precautions to prevent it? It's called responsibility; on of the things we, as adults are expected to deal with.
 
But no married couples can be expected to abstain forever. It is a natural part of marriage. That is why "abstinence only" sex education never works as well as teaching students everything about contraception that teenagers can handle.

most people who get abortions are unmarried

sex with marriage is a wonderful thing, first making kids take priority a lot
 
I will have all the sex I want. If I get pregnant, I will abort. You don't get to tell me what to do or not do.

every society regulates human sexuality for good reasons
 
It is not. What if you are not sexually compatible and then split up because of it? Better to find out before marriage.

Or what if one is sterile and doesn't know it? Better to find out before marriage.

that is a minute situation which i am sure almost never happens

plus there is sterile tests
 
So what. That's your "solution," which never interested me. I never found it necessary to punish myself with lifetime celibacy for refusing to reproduce, so I never did so. No other woman has to punish herself that way either.

well face the consequences for your actions if you dont want to wait, cool?
 
The stated purpose of the religious right is to overturn Roe and end legal abortions. That's smacks of theocracy not freedom of choice or freedom of religion.
But electing people that promise to stack the SC and make your conservative religious moral choices into federal law is what the pro-choice movement is fighting against.
Except you yourself, even admitted, fully understanding, that action wouldn't have that effect. You require legislation…which is not that easy. I wouldn't even go with likely.

The SC should no invent 'unconstitutionality' on legislative matters cause it opposes their personal views. If abortion rights were actually in the constitution(by jurisprudence), we talk about amending it. I'd love to hear how you think that could be done under current precedent.

Pro-choice is not fighting against making a choice to give birth.
Not true, social pressures to abort are very common.
Pro-choice is most often making a sociological argument. (Benefits of abortion outweigh the costs)
That's an immoral argument.
The real moral arguments all are about liberty and parental rights.
If be nicer to hear those more often, and better yet you wouldn't be arguing some strawman that wants to make women into non-citizen baby factories.

Pro-choice is not fighting against adoption.
Of course it is, strongly so in fact….adoption would be more common and culturally normalized if we had less abortion - fact.

It's not fighting against giving birth and lovingly raising a Down's child or any other handicapped child.
I shudder at the depth of character of those that do that, I struggle enough with strong independent daughter, but again yes it is…by giving the choice, you make it harder for those that do.

It's fighting against making laws that force women to carry every pregnancy to term, and refusal of late term abortion for genetically non-viable fetuses.
Force implies it is not natural to bring to term. The force is applied when you end the term artificially. Semantic games. There is not force, it's an expectation.

A libertarian society would give women this right. I do not look down on a libertarian ethic, I simply do not share them or perhaps do so but with a more heavier heart, and sympathy for those who don't.

It's fighting against states that make laws restricting legal 1st trimester abortions.
Yeah, which has more allies(like myself) than later terms. Still should not be unconstitutional, as is, not the purview of the courts but the legislative, but I'm not going to expect you to see that.

It's fighting to keep open Planned Parenthood clinics that deal with contraception not abortion.
BS.

It's fighting against the lies of Priests for Life and organizations like David Daleiden's Center for Medical Progress.
And you think it's a virtue? To have a political position? Do you think I want to silence certain views?
Lobbying of any kind is good. IMHO. So yes, different lobbies not like each other - also healthy and good.

It's fighting against rules that require legitimate women's clinics to do completely unnecessary and invasive bodily inspections like vaginal sonograms, extended waiting periods, repeated visits and a host of other religious right's restrictions to prevent women from getting legal abortions.
Well considering, for someone like me my biggest issue is the amount, not the idea, umm, isn't that exactly what people like me want to see more of? A gentle discouragement. So yeah....thanks for making me pro-life?
 
I'm assuming from your previous post that you consider legal abortion a moral disaster that triggered equal rights,…
Huh? No aspect of my opinions or arguments are based on being christian. And, no I don't think legal abortion is a moral disaster, in fact, especially on the personal level I see many moral circumstances for abortion compared to most pro-life advocates. I object to the 'industry' more than practice. There are many countries that legalized abortion as representative democracies should[by the people]; what I object to most in RvW, is not the result, I respect the framework, it was the underlying extremely damaging and dangerous legal methodology, which read-ins based on outcome rather than fair interpretation of the 'spirit of the law' and 'common law practice'. I wouldn't claim that's exclusive to the left, but unlike the right it is outright encouraged - which does sicken me and makes me quite vocal on the matter.

Judicial activism, undermines the justification for a legal system. I trust the legal system, only in so much as it can render fair and impartial rulings. When it merges with the legislative branch — there is only state, which derives not from 'protection of individual rights' & 'consent of the governed' but rather the same debunked justifications of kings and their courts. This may seem academic but it matters to me.

Judicial activism, is when new law magically appears in courts when there in fact none by legislation or case precedence; because, in the opinion of the legal establishment it should. I get deeply concerned - even when I agree. Legislation is often extremely flaw, but that is the place designed to balance the considerations of making law. Again, I morally, have far more concern, problems & outrage with the decision on 'Planned Parenthood v. Casey' than anything in 'Roe v. Wade'.

The underlying question here is a philosophical one: does life being at conception, second trimester(as I think), birth, with cognicience? That will be debated probably forever, but in terms of legal implication, the idea a legal body not legislative body be in postion to determine 'balancing disagreemnt' because 'due process' of individual view is insane pretzel logic, that's the purpose of legislative branch. This puts into question the very foundational value of any social law which requires any subjective or moral argument on restrictions involving more than one person.

By this logic, a marriage licence being exclusive to man and women(or person and person) verses horse a man and a cow and a cousin. Unconstitutional. Personal privacy / due process. Government should have no right to decide, the number or constitution of the marriage unless then can show strictly good reason in accordance with x. Insider trading laws. Unconstitutional. A civil dispute between independent parties….

This is not the slippery slope argument. It's hyperbole to highlight the logic isn't Jurisprudence. The danger lays elsewhere. I could care less, if governments didn't pass any marriage certificates or did to anyone/anything who applied; nor if insider trading was a matter of civil dispute between affected parties.

Does a government have the right restrict pedophile cults without complaints from inside? You know the ones we have across the country who traffic in underage girls and child labour, at least without strict court review. It wouldn't matter today sure, as courts would review in favour of protecting the children, but now imagine this religion spreads, became a wide spread and popular practice, verse the exception, and now some of the judges are involved, well now that same legal justification for 'review' is exactly how the evil is allowed to grow. (History is chock-full of it)

Legislative bodies, have the right to make 'bad law'. If say, Texas was preventing a women going out of state to get an abortion. Now, we talking.
The people of Texas, do have the right to within their jurisdiction infringe anyone rights when in they are de facto protecting a fetus they have read-in the same rights too.
Or, are laws related to killing an illegal, unconstitutional, as it involved different legal right standards which must be 'reviewed' and justified to the courts?

Come on, you should just admit it. They saw a law, they consider it bad law, they rewrote it, then justified it with legalese. That is my issue there. I was simply curious if you could admit that. Based on your answer I can assume not, you think it totally normal of the courts not legislative to decide philosophical questions like this without strict legal review. You think 'due process' and privacy rights, totally make sense as justification for a fundamental right to abort. This was not a power grab or violation of checks and balance in the slightest. Great for you! I learned now I don't want to talk law with you. So I'll restrict future responses to the moral aspects.
 
Almost every piece of legislation is social engineering. All laws change some aspect of the world we live in. Since there were about the same number of abortions before Roe as after I'm not sure that the masses are much changed other than fewer women have died because of illegal abortion.
Yeah, there is a stark difference between arresting 'thieves' and thus reducing gangs and pacifying culture and knowning altering the demographics of the nation for political purposes. The southern democrats were notorious racist, and I find it mighty convenient, these same albeit 'reformed' organizers post 1964, just happen to make a central issue one that has had by far the most negative significance on American Blacks, preventing some 25 or so million being born. One can't help but wonder.

Again, to go back to my original post. I am extremely sympathetic to any women who feels abortion is her best opinion. I have my own line same as theirs. That doesn't change the fact, that those individual choices have far-reaching moral implications on society. Nor that those choice are free of political influence. It doesn't change the fact, if society doesn't stand for those unwanted lives - no one does. It doesn't change the fact, women aren't without agency, they know the pregnancy risks of unprotected sex, and it is no longer simply their free choice to end that new life just because they are the mother. Many unwanted children, have wonderful lives and accomplished great feats. Many mothers are immoral and terrible human beings, I shudder to think are moral arbiter.

I have no issue moral or otherwise, you side with pro-choice, life is cruel, but it likely is only in you think life begins later than I. And, there is no universe where one should moderate their moral outrage at those who stand for the unborn. We are standing against what we see as murder, for political reasons. You should easily be able to disagree and respect it as a belief. Not imagine abortion laws and restrictions are not some f-ing equivalents to a theocracy. :peace
 
In my country, sex is not illegal. Nor is it illegal to be gay. As the late Pierre Trudeau said - the country has no business in the bedrooms of the nation.

well i said society, society regulates it-you face consequences if you act sexually immoral
 
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