Democratic impeachment calls swell as McGahn defies subpoena

[MTAtech]

Keep making things up to suit your ideology. Trump didn't obstruct anything as no negative action was taken that impeded the Mueller investigation. Comey should have been booted years ago but Obama was operating on typical Chicago politics and was getting a political Justice Dept. to do work for him. Congress has no right to a private citizen's tax returns without legitimate reasons to demand them and there are none here.

The crux of the issue is you are a partisan left wing radical who believes what he is told and ignores the results being generated. Trump had the authority to do with he did and as long as nothing impeded the investigation, you have nothing nor does Congress. 22 months, no indictment even against Don, Jr. speaks volumes.

Keep coming back for more and I will keep defeating your rhetoric with logic, common sense and facts

Irony and projection.

Mueller described 10 instances of obstruction of justice.

 

[Perotista]

What you are seeing is an overall approval rating after 24/7 personal attacks and bogus claims and charges. Results will never matter to the radical left whose agenda is to destroy the private sector. Trump's personal life is irrelevant compared to the job he is doing in the WH and results matter.

Trump is an easy man to dislike. I voted for him because he was the better alternative to Hillary and will vote for him again as he beats the alternative from the Democratic Party who stand for nothing other than politics of personal destruction.

I have never liked Trump and don't like him now but likability has never driven me to vote for a particular candidate, policies always drive me and right now the Trump results speak for themselves and the radical left is doing nothing to create positive reasons to vote for a Democrat. Anti Trump rhetoric doesn't trump the actual results generated and it is actual results generated that will be on the ballot in 2020 and if this continues he will gladly have my vote

I understand. Usually Republicans and Democrats will vote around 90% of the time for their candidate regardless of whom it is. Independents are a different matter. They don't pay much attention to the day to day grind of politics. They are more apt to vote for a candidate they like than one they don't. Likability enters the arena with independents. How many, it's hard to tell.

Gallup a year or more ago said that of those who who dislike Trump for personal reason, character, persona, his uncouthness think he's doing a bad job as president. Here's Gallup direct quote.

Trump's unique personal style, brashness and disregard for conventional political norms and discourse -- while clearly a negative for many during the campaign -- helped him stand out from other Republican contenders and ultimately contributed to his victory in November. Six months into his presidency, these same characteristics remain prominent in the minds of his detractors and remain the most frequently cited reasons as to why the majority of Americans think he is not doing a good job.

Trump Disapproval Rooted in Character Concerns

It's his as Gallup put it, unique persona or personality that causes the 10 points difference in Trump's handling of the economy and his overall job performance ratings. At least, I think so.

 

[Perotista]

Maybe those in the middle are tired of the whole affair - that doesn't mean sympathetic to Trump, or they don't want to see a resolution. Perhaps they'd like to see the Dems do more governing and less whining, or put their money where their mouths are, but it doesn't mean four more years of Trump's corruption would be preferable. The numbers show most of the country suspect the president of something, regardless of whether they like Pelosi oir AOC.

I can buy that. I think more and more folks just don't want to hear about this anymore. Put their money where their mouth is is apt and probably would be welcomed. I think most of those who are getting tired, bored perhaps thought once Mueller issued his report, this whole thing would be done and over with one way or the other. Trump would either be impeached and removed or the Democrats would shut up and leave Trump alone. That hasn't been the case.

 

[Ouroboros]

Everyday he defies & obstructs Congressional investigations. Not just on select items, but in blanket fashion. He believes he is above Congressional oversight. And for this reason, I believe he deserves to be impeached & removed.

Pushing back against Congressional investigations seems to me the antithesis of "asking for" impeachment.

It's fine if someone wants to say that Trump is not as forthcoming as a President ought to be. That's one interpretation, and others may feel differently. But I don't think it makes any sense to say that "he asked for it," as if his actions are so far beyond the pale that the other side just HAD to bring charges. That's disingenuous in the extreme.

Trump doesn't "ask" for anything. He does whatever he wants, and then his enemies react against it.

 

[Conservative]

Irony and projection.

Mueller described 10 instances of obstruction of justice.

Then list them!!

 

[Conservative]

I understand. Usually Republicans and Democrats will vote around 90% of the time for their candidate regardless of whom it is. Independents are a different matter. They don't pay much attention to the day to day grind of politics. They are more apt to vote for a candidate they like than one they don't. Likability enters the arena with independents. How many, it's hard to tell.

Gallup a year or more ago said that of those who who dislike Trump for personal reason, character, persona, his uncouthness think he's doing a bad job as president. Here's Gallup direct quote.

Trump's unique personal style, brashness and disregard for conventional political norms and discourse -- while clearly a negative for many during the campaign -- helped him stand out from other Republican contenders and ultimately contributed to his victory in November. Six months into his presidency, these same characteristics remain prominent in the minds of his detractors and remain the most frequently cited reasons as to why the majority of Americans think he is not doing a good job.

Trump Disapproval Rooted in Character Concerns

It's his as Gallup put it, unique persona or personality that causes the 10 points difference in Trump's handling of the economy and his overall job performance ratings. At least, I think so.

Character never mattered with Clinton or any other President, why now Trump? What is the cost going to be of putting one of these socialist bozos in the WH? The independents now are irrelevant as they don't matter until election day when they have a choice, why would they vote for one of the Democrats running for office?

 

[Perotista]

Character never mattered with Clinton or any other President, why now Trump? What is the cost going to be of putting one of these socialist bozos in the WH? The independents now are irrelevant as they don't matter until election day when they have a choice, why would they vote for one of the Democrats running for office?

You're asking me why independents vote the way they do? Numerous varying reasons is the best I can come up with. Bill Clinton, the man acted presidential. He connected with the people as much as Reagan and FDR did. You never heard Bill call others names or throw temper tantrums. He may have lied to congress, but most folks outside of Republicans either forgave him or didn't care. Bill was a likable guy. Yes, we're back to that with independents.

In 1992 Bill won the independent vote 43-28 over Bush with Perot gaining 30%. A 15 point win among independents. In 1996 Bill won independents 50-30 over Dole with Perot gaining 17%. A 20 Point win among independents. Trump won independents in 2016 by a 46-42 margin with 12% voting third party. A four point margin. Why, likability which you fail to see as a factor. Also Bill was affable, friendly, he wasn't brash or uncouth.

Independents gave Bill a 50% first term approval rating and a great 61% second term approval. So far independents have given Trump a low 39% overall job approval for his first 2 1/2 years. Perhaps independents can be summed up in the numbers of indies who want Trump to run for reelection, 28% do, 49% don't. Question 77.

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/fs1r87zj1f/econTabReport.pdf

Again, these numbers are dynamic and constantly change. I would say Trump today is unpopular with independents. Who knows what these numbers will show come Nov 2020. But they have been fairly constant since Trump first took office. Could be since independents don't pay much attention to politics until a week or two or three prior to the election, they might just want a president who acts presidential and not as a member of the WWE. That's my best guess. But each individual votes the way they do for different reasons.

I said this before, I don't think Republicans, Trump supporters know how much Trump's brash persona, his unique personality hurts him. I'd go so far as to state if Trump had a pleasant, more presidential personality with this good economy, his overall job performance approval would be 10 points higher, perhaps 15.

 

[Zoupish]

Then list them!!

Here's the list

Character never mattered with Clinton or any other President, why now Trump? What is the cost going to be of putting one of these socialist bozos in the WH? The independents now are irrelevant as they don't matter until election day when they have a choice, why would they vote for one of the Democrats running for office?

Clinton was impeached. He wasn't removed from office, but I don't think many of us on the left are under the illusion that Trump will be removed from office either. It's not about the cost of putting a democrat in the Whitehouse.

This could have gone a lot easier. At every turn, Trump has shown little respect for due process or the levers of power he is supposed to wield. At every turn, this has made him more impotent that he could have been. We can't hold responsible for every instance in which his subordinates acted unlawfully, but we can hold him responsible for attempting to protect his associates from justice, even if he only did it to prevent their bad behavior from reflecting poorly on him. Our system operated on the principle of good faith participation, and the president swears an oath to faithfully execute the office. We should not have to rely on members of an administration to ignore the illegal orders of a president, we should have a president that does not give illegal orders, especially after they've been advised against doing so.

 

[Conservative]

You're asking me why independents vote the way they do? Numerous varying reasons is the best I can come up with. Bill Clinton, the man acted presidential. He connected with the people as much as Reagan and FDR did. You never heard Bill call others names or throw temper tantrums. He may have lied to congress, but most folks outside of Republicans either forgave him or didn't care. Bill was a likable guy. Yes, we're back to that with independents.

In 1992 Bill won the independent vote 43-28 over Bush with Perot gaining 30%. A 15 point win among independents. In 1996 Bill won independents 50-30 over Dole with Perot gaining 17%. A 20 Point win among independents. Trump won independents in 2016 by a 46-42 margin with 12% voting third party. A four point margin. Why, likability which you fail to see as a factor. Also Bill was affable, friendly, he wasn't brash or uncouth.

Independents gave Bill a 50% first term approval rating and a great 61% second term approval. So far independents have given Trump a low 39% overall job approval for his first 2 1/2 years. Perhaps independents can be summed up in the numbers of indies who want Trump to run for reelection, 28% do, 49% don't. Question 77.

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/fs1r87zj1f/econTabReport.pdf

Again, these numbers are dynamic and constantly change. I would say Trump today is unpopular with independents. Who knows what these numbers will show come Nov 2020. But they have been fairly constant since Trump first took office. Could be since independents don't pay much attention to politics until a week or two or three prior to the election, they might just want a president who acts presidential and not as a member of the WWE. That's my best guess. But each individual votes the way they do for different reasons.

I said this before, I don't think Republicans, Trump supporters know how much Trump's brash persona, his unique personality hurts him. I'd go so far as to state if Trump had a pleasant, more presidential personality with this good economy, his overall job performance approval would be 10 points higher, perhaps 15.

Didn't realize we had an election this year. You think Obama was Presidential? Sorry but still no answer why would anyone vote for a Democrat? What do they stand for and at what cost?

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[Conservative]

Here's the list



Clinton was impeached. He wasn't removed from office, but I don't think many of us on the left are under the illusion that Trump will be removed from office either. It's not about the cost of putting a democrat in the Whitehouse.

This could have gone a lot easier. At every turn, Trump has shown little respect for due process or the levers of power he is supposed to wield. At every turn, this has made him more impotent that he could have been. We can't hold responsible for every instance in which his subordinates acted unlawfully, but we can hold him responsible for attempting to protect his associates from justice, even if he only did it to prevent their bad behavior from reflecting poorly on him. Our system operated on the principle of good faith participation, and the president swears an oath to faithfully execute the office. We should not have to rely on members of an administration to ignore the illegal orders of a president, we should have a president that does not give illegal orders, especially after they've been advised against doing so.

Possible? Clinton lied under oath, Trump has broken no law

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[Conservative]

Did the investigation stop or was it impeded? 22 months. Millions of dollars and all you have are words not action, that isn't obstruction

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[Obscurity]

Didn't realize we had an election this year. You think Obama was Presidential? Sorry but still no answer why would anyone vote for a Democrat? What do they stand for and at what cost?

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Total failure to address the points raised. Par for the course with you lot.

 

[MTAtech]

Irony and projection.

Mueller described 10 instances of obstruction of justice.

Then list them!!

At the risk of having you think that I'm your research assistant, it took about a minute to Google. [h=1]10 episodes where Trump might have obstructed justice[/h]

 

[Zoupish]

Possible? Clinton lied under oath, Trump has broken no law

Mueller acknowledged that he was leaving the issue of obstruction of justice up to Congress because he was president and by justice department policy, a sitting president cannot be indicted. That is not the same thing as not breaking no law. Not to mention crimes we know Trump can be indicted for:

Conspiracy to commit money laundering for conspiring with Cohen to set up a shell corporation to conceal payments to Stormy Daniels and Karen McDougal.
Felony campaign finance violation for the money paid to conceal his affairs.
Making false statements to a financial institutions by inflating his net worth in seeking a loan from Deutsche Bank to see a loan to by the Buffalo Bills.
Self dealing in the operation of the Trump Foundation
Knowingly signing a materially false tax return for the above.

Furthermore, there are still numerous investigations, outside of congressional ones, spawning from the Mueller report, and initiated independently by SDNY into Trump and his organizations.

 

[Perotista]

Didn't realize we had an election this year. You think Obama was Presidential? Sorry but still no answer why would anyone vote for a Democrat? What do they stand for and at what cost?

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Perhaps it is not voting for someone or a party, but more like voting against someone or a party. History has shown usually one doesn't vote for someone they dislike. That is unless they dislike both candidates, parties. Then it comes down to the lesser of two evils, the least worst candidate or party or even the candidate or party you want to lose the least.

I'd say in 2016 both Trump and Clinton fell into that category. You're talking about an election where Trump was seen favorable or liked if you will by 36% of all Americans, Hillary by 38%. The lesser of two evils, both unwanted vote was split 10-10 giving the candidates, Hillary a 48-46 popular vote victory.

Trump still maintains that 36% favorable view from Americans as his base. His favorable's nationwide is at 42% this week. 27% very favorable, 15% somewhat favorable. His unfavorable's, 44% very unfavorable, 9% somewhat favorable. Question 55A

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/dl1xj5lsd9/econTabReport.pdf

Democrats are asking the same question, why would anyone vote for Trump? Yours and theirs are for each individual to answer as only each person knows why they vote the way they do. I can only give you my best educated guess, still a guess.

 

[Evilroddy]

I would like to see Don McGahn in the jail cell right beside Chelsea Manning serving time for refusing to testify. The symmetry would be healthy for the rule of law in America.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

 

[Conservative]

Mueller acknowledged that he was leaving the issue of obstruction of justice up to Congress because he was president and by justice department policy, a sitting president cannot be indicted. That is not the same thing as not breaking no law. Not to mention crimes we know Trump can be indicted for:

Conspiracy to commit money laundering for conspiring with Cohen to set up a shell corporation to conceal payments to Stormy Daniels and Karen McDougal.
Felony campaign finance violation for the money paid to conceal his affairs.
Making false statements to a financial institutions by inflating his net worth in seeking a loan from Deutsche Bank to see a loan to by the Buffalo Bills.
Self dealing in the operation of the Trump Foundation
Knowingly signing a materially false tax return for the above.

Furthermore, there are still numerous investigations, outside of congressional ones, spawning from the Mueller report, and initiated independently by SDNY into Trump and his organizations.

I have no idea what is wrong with you people because actions speak louder than words except in the liberal world! What Trump said and what he did are two different things and if he did something illegal that would be obstruction but saying something isn't.

There isn't any Court in the world that would take rhetoric as proof of obstruction because actions are what constitutes obstruction. You people want to get rid of trump and replace him with whom?

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[Conservative]

Perhaps it is not voting for someone or a party, but more like voting against someone or a party. History has shown usually one doesn't vote for someone they dislike. That is unless they dislike both candidates, parties. Then it comes down to the lesser of two evils, the least worst candidate or party or even the candidate or party you want to lose the least.

I'd say in 2016 both Trump and Clinton fell into that category. You're talking about an election where Trump was seen favorable or liked if you will by 36% of all Americans, Hillary by 38%. The lesser of two evils, both unwanted vote was split 10-10 giving the candidates, Hillary a 48-46 popular vote victory.

Trump still maintains that 36% favorable view from Americans as his base. His favorable's nationwide is at 42% this week. 27% very favorable, 15% somewhat favorable. His unfavorable's, 44% very unfavorable, 9% somewhat favorable. Question 55A

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/dl1xj5lsd9/econTabReport.pdf

Democrats are asking the same question, why would anyone vote for Trump? Yours and theirs are for each individual to answer as only each person knows why they vote the way they do. I can only give you my best educated guess, still a guess.

In November 2020 the American people are going to have to make a choice again! That choice is going to be based upon results not personal opinion or how people feel. My belief is that the American people without an alternative are going to re-elect Trump in a landslide as there is absolutely no reason and you have offered none to vote for a Democrat!

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[Conservative]

At the risk of having you think that I'm your research assistant, it took about a minute to Google. [h=1]10 episodes where Trump might have obstructed justice[/h]

You are going to have to do better than saying that Trump might have obstructed Justice because rhetoric isn't obstruction actions are! What specific actions impeded investigation?

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[MTAtech]

Mueller acknowledged that he was leaving the issue of obstruction of justice up to Congress because he was president and by justice department policy, a sitting president cannot be indicted. That is not the same thing as not breaking no law. Not to mention crimes we know Trump can be indicted for:

Conspiracy to commit money laundering for conspiring with Cohen to set up a shell corporation to conceal payments to Stormy Daniels and Karen McDougal.
Felony campaign finance violation for the money paid to conceal his affairs.
Making false statements to a financial institutions by inflating his net worth in seeking a loan from Deutsche Bank to see a loan to by the Buffalo Bills.
Self dealing in the operation of the Trump Foundation
Knowingly signing a materially false tax return for the above.

Furthermore, there are still numerous investigations, outside of congressional ones, spawning from the Mueller report, and initiated independently by SDNY into Trump and his organizations.

There you go, reciting FACTS. The Trump Stepford spouses don't want facts. They assert there were no crimes. You can show them the list and then they will repeat again that there were no crimes. They just aren't influenced by facts.

 

[MTAtech]

You are going to have to do better than saying that Trump might have obstructed Justice because rhetoric isn't obstruction actions are! What specific actions impeded investigation?

I don't have to "do better." Mr. Mueller made it very clear the level of obstruction. The fact that you won't accept it doesn't change reality.

 

[Crystal]

I don't have to "do better." Mr. Mueller made it very clear the level of obstruction. The fact that you won't accept it doesn't change reality.

Then you will insist on impeachment. Right?

 

[Perotista]

In November 2020 the American people are going to have to make a choice again! That choice is going to be based upon results not personal opinion or how people feel. My belief is that the American people without an alternative are going to re-elect Trump in a landslide as there is absolutely no reason and you have offered none to vote for a Democrat!

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Could be, I doubt it though. I heard the same talk prior to the 2018 midterms where the good economy was going to save the house for the Republicans. It didn't. Like in 2018 and 2016, Republicans will vote for Trump, Democrats for their candidate. How independents vote will decide it. In 2016 independents went to Trump 46-42 over Hillary, in 2018 independents went for the Democrats 54-42.

Will independents come back to Trump? I think we are forgetting that 12% of independents voted against Trump, against Clinton by refusing to choose between them. Voting for a third party candidate because they didn't like nor want neither one as president. I don't think those 12% have changed their minds about Trump. The big difference between 2016 and 2018, there was no Hillary on the ballot representing the democrats in 2018. Hillary won't be there in 2020 either to save Trump.

That 12% of independents who voted third party in 2016 represents 9 million voters. Being they probably won't be voting for Trump, like in 2016, the question becomes how many flip to the Democratic candidate, how many vote third party once again and how many just say to heck with it and stay home? We know in 2018 a good sized majority of those 9 million voted for the democratic congressional candidates. Hence the Democratic share of the total independent vote shot up from 42% in 2016 to 54% in 2018. Will they do the same in 2020 as 2018? That remains to be seen.

The bottom line is that the Republican Party is still the smaller of the two major parties. That's been the case since FDR. Republicans, Trump in this case must win the independent vote or lose the election. We still have a year and a half before election day. We don't know whom the Democrats will nominate which could make all the difference. Time will tell, but today, the independent vote isn't looking good for Trump.

Then too, there is always a major unforeseen event or two which could throw everything upside down.

 

[MTAtech]

Then you will insist on impeachment. Right?

I think it is becoming inevitable. He declared last week that he will ignore every Congressional subpoena, regardless of reason. Today, he said that he will not work with Congress on anything, unless the investigations stop. He's showing us daily that he won't faithfully execute his office or preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.

 

[Conservative]

I don't have to "do better." Mr. Mueller made it very clear the level of obstruction. The fact that you won't accept it doesn't change reality.

That is what you want to believe but as I stated actions speak louder than words and you have yet to post any specific action that impeded the investigation thus would be called obstruction! Rhetoric doesn't Trump actions.

Why is it that your party has to resort to legal action or making things up instead of offering an alternative and solutions for the American people?

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