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Decentralized Public Health System Disrupting Testing Analysis

ldsrptcvt said:
I've never heard of a hospital bill payment plan - are interest charges involved? Do you know of any hospital that does this?
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Literally every single hospital that receives Federal funding offers patient-pay plans. I've never heard of a plan having interest since it's not a loan, but the admin fees are minimal. 2 years ago I had to pay $1,700 for something my insurance didn't cover. I set up auto-pay with the hospital and paid $100 pr/wk for 17 weeks (my preference to get it paid off faster, they didn't require more than $100 per month but I didn't want to be on the hook for that long) and the admin fee was like $10.

Best Practices for Patient Payment Plans

My father is still making payments on an ER trip he had 3 years ago, and my mother for a surgery she had 5 years ago. There's literally no excuse to not pay your hospital bill short of permanent full disability or dying without life insurance.
 
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Wayne Jr said:
Literally every single hospital that receives Federal funding offers patient-pay plans. I've never heard of a plan having interest since it's not a loan, but the admin fees are minimal. 2 years ago I had to pay $1,700 for something my insurance didn't cover. I set up auto-pay with the hospital and paid $100 pr/wk for 17 weeks (my preference to get it paid off faster, they didn't require more than $100 per month but I didn't want to be on the hook for that long) and the admin fee was like $10.

Best Practices for Patient Payment Plans

My father is still making payments on an ER trip he had 3 years ago, and my mother for a surgery she had 5 years ago. There's literally no excuse to not pay your hospital bill short of permanent full disability or dying without life insurance.
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1. Don't you think these plans decrease the hospitals' income? - like any payment plan the provider has to wait for money to invest themselves. Isn't the purpose of interest meant to cover such losses?
2. not being nosy but for discussion - does your family not have health insurance?
 
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Wayne Jr said:
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years. These nations have progressed through this sequence: From bondage to spiritual faith; From spiritual faith to great courage; From courage to liberty; From liberty to abundance; From abundance to selfishness; From selfishness to apathy; From apathy to dependence; From dependence back into bondage.”

― Alexander Fraser Tytler
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And in these United States, the 'voters' who learned quickly to vote themselves largesse from the public treasury are the special interests and corporations, thus revealing that we have no democracy at all, but rather an oligarchy evolving into fascism.
 
ldsrptcvt said:
The 9/11 hijackers were well known by the FBI and CIA and we could have had air defenses ready to intercept the hijacked planes. The better surveillance technology (thinthread) was later used to search the trailblazer data base and pulled out crucial facts buried in piles of useless data - all the signs were there, hidden in the metadata. "That the elaborate 9/11 plot went undetected will forever be remembered as one of the intelligence community’s worst failures."

U.S. Intelligence Needs Another Reinvention - The Atlantic
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Yes, the "hijackers" were well known by "the authorities". Indeed, some of them were "handled" by US agents, at strip clubs snorting cocaine.

But that does not mean any airplanes were hijacked that day, and it does not mean that AA11 struck the north tower or UA175 struck the south tower.

You're into hypotheticals, I'm into examining the facts, now historical events.
 
Thoreau72 said:
And in these United States, the 'voters' who learned quickly to vote themselves largesse from the public treasury are the special interests and corporations, thus revealing that we have no democracy at all, but rather an oligarchy evolving into fascism.
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exactly. I don't think many people even know what an oligarchy is
 
Thoreau72 said:
Yes, the "hijackers" were well known by "the authorities". Indeed, some of them were "handled" by US agents, at strip clubs snorting cocaine.

But that does not mean any airplanes were hijacked that day, and it does not mean that AA11 struck the north tower or UA175 struck the south tower.

You're into hypotheticals, I'm into examining the facts, now historical events.
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(On a side note, I'm on the trail of scientific evidence that the WTC buildings were prepped for demolition)
 
ldsrptcvt said:
1. Don't you think these plans decrease the hospitals' income? - like any payment plan the provider has to wait for money to invest themselves.
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Not at all. Hospitals in the US only lose about 2% of their income due to unpaid bills, because patients who can't pay often qualify for Emergency Medicaid, with the remaining bad debt sold off to colection agencies who pay only a little less than insurance companies cover. Of that uncompensated remainder, the hospital is reimbursed through Centers for Medicare & Medicare Services.

After all that, we get the 2% loss, which is more than covered by investors and realestate income.

Hospital profits are quite robust.

ldsrptcvt said:
2. not being nosy but for discussion - does your family not have health insurance?
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I have an HSA, which means a high deductible, hence the $1700 I had to pay. I think the total bill for the doc, ER, MRIs, ambulance, etc, was around $6000.

***
I strongly support a universal HSA plan over single-payer for a veriaty of reasons, not least of which being to keep costs down.
 
Wayne Jr said:
Not at all. Hospitals in the US only lose about 2% of their income due to unpaid bills, because patients who can't pay often qualify for Emergency Medicaid, with the remaining bad debt sold off to colection agencies who pay only a little less than insurance companies cover. Of that uncompensated remainder, the hospital is reimbursed through Centers for Medicare & Medicare Services.

After all that, we get the 2% loss, which is more than covered by investors and realestate income.

Hospital profits are quite robust.


I have an HSA, which means a high deductible, hence the $1700 I had to pay. I think the total bill for the doc, ER, MRIs, ambulance, etc, was around $6000.

***
I strongly support a universal HSA plan over single-payer for a veriaty of reasons, not least of which being to keep costs down.
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I think it really would need to be universal; as things stand now, "Deductions by Medicare, Medicaid and the insurance companies account for almost all of the differences between billing charges and receipts."

Hospital Financial Analysis - True Cost of Heathcare

Those who buy health insurance get screwed by higher and higher premiums.
 
ldsrptcvt said:
I think it really would need to be universal; as things stand now, "Deductions by Medicare, Medicaid and the insurance companies account for almost all of the differences between billing charges and receipts."

Hospital Financial Analysis - True Cost of Heathcare

Those who buy health insurance get screwed by higher and higher premiums.
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Socializing healthcare doesn't get rid of the high premiums, it just makes other people pay for it. Socialism always fails because eventually, you run out of other people's money to cover those costs.

But we agree that high premiums should be avoided.

That's why I support giving everyone an HSA at birth. Low premium, high deductible, and just make a payment plan with the hospital to cover that deductible. I recognize that HSAs work best for those who either require frequent medical visits, or those who hardly ever require medical care at all. Those in the middle can benefit from private insurance policies, but the more care you need to be covered, the higher your premium will be. Those same people can still qualify for emergency Medicaid, and receive donations into their HSA which grows over time.

***
On a somewhat related note to private accounts, this is how I would solve the Social Security problem as well. At birth, you would be given an IRA, and mandatory deductions from your income would be put in that IRA, and you would have a say in what kinds of funds your IRA was invested in.

While I'm beating dead horses, this is also exactly how I would solve the student loan debacle. I would stop issuing Federally guaranteed student loans, freeze all current accounts, and let them be paid off without accruing more interest. At birth, you would receive an Educational Savings Account with a yet-to-be-determined initial value. Your legal guardians would have a mandatory deduction from their earned income deposited into your ESA, and mandatory deductions from your eventual income would be deposited into it as well. You would have a say in what kinds of mutual funds your ESA were invested in. At 40, President Wayne would give you the option to roll your ESA into your IRA without penalty or tax, or cash the ESA out, taxed at your income tax rate.
 
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Socializing healthcare costs is what a civilized and wealthy country would do, especially if it is also a country that brags about liberty and justice for all.
 
danielpalos said:
In right wing fantasy, we have a general warfare clause not a general welfare clause.
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I see your point, but the truth is that the Democrat LBJ was just as enthusiastic about waging war as the Republican Nixon.

In more modern times, the Dems were extremely vocal in their criticism of Trump when he attempted to get us out of Syria.
 
Thoreau72 said:
I see your point, but the truth is that the Democrat LBJ was just as enthusiastic about waging war as the Republican Nixon.

In more modern times, the Dems were extremely vocal in their criticism of Trump when he attempted to get us out of Syria.
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The democrats are easier to reason with since they tend to understand our federal Constitution. The right wing ignores their alleged republican doctrine in favor of right wing fantasy.
 
danielpalos said:
The democrats are easier to reason with since they tend to understand our federal Constitution. The right wing ignores their alleged republican doctrine in favor of right wing fantasy.
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If they understand our Constitution to which they have taken an oath to defend, why then did so many democrats vote for the patriot act and AUMF? Why did they scold Trump for attempting to end our illegal involvement in Syria?
 
Thoreau72 said:
If they understand our Constitution to which they have taken an oath to defend, why then did so many democrats vote for the patriot act and AUMF? Why did they scold Trump for attempting to end our illegal involvement in Syria?
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We subscribe to Capitalism? Want to check to see how many of those politicians had some vested constituent interest in those policies? The republicans have no general warfare clause nor any common offense clause.
 
Wayne Jr said:
Socializing healthcare doesn't get rid of the high premiums, it just makes other people pay for it. Socialism always fails because eventually, you run out of other people's money to cover those costs.

But we agree that high premiums should be avoided.

That's why I support giving everyone an HSA at birth. Low premium, high deductible, and just make a payment plan with the hospital to cover that deductible. I recognize that HSAs work best for those who either require frequent medical visits, or those who hardly ever require medical care at all. Those in the middle can benefit from private insurance policies, but the more care you need to be covered, the higher your premium will be. Those same people can still qualify for emergency Medicaid, and receive donations into their HSA which grows over time.

***
On a somewhat related note to private accounts, this is how I would solve the Social Security problem as well. At birth, you would be given an IRA, and mandatory deductions from your income would be put in that IRA, and you would have a say in what kinds of funds your IRA was invested in.

While I'm beating dead horses, this is also exactly how I would solve the student loan debacle. I would stop issuing Federally guaranteed student loans, freeze all current accounts, and let them be paid off without accruing more interest. At birth, you would receive an Educational Savings Account with a yet-to-be-determined initial value. Your legal guardians would have a mandatory deduction from their earned income deposited into your ESA, and mandatory deductions from your eventual income would be deposited into it as well. You would have a say in what kinds of mutual funds your ESA were invested in. At 40, President Wayne would give you the option to roll your ESA into your IRA without penalty or tax, or cash the ESA out, taxed at your income tax rate.
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My doubts:

1. If everyone had an HSA, that group in the middle couldn't afford private insurance because the insurance companies would have small 'policyholder bases' (if that's what they call it) and that base wouldn't include those low-use policy holders that keep premiums down.

2. Making people in the middle group spend down til they qualify for Medicaid puts them in poverty

3. In your investment models, the person needs to be savvy about investing, or pay through the nose for brokers (middlemen - my father detested them). A person with a profession not related to finance is behind the eight ball. Back when I was a physical therapist, I didn't have time to learn how to invest because I was busy with continuing professional education.

On a side note, I think Americans are forced to rely too heavily on the stock market, etc. for income. This boils down to gambling and the middlemen brokers are a pestilence. It's come to the point that everyone who goes to college needs to major in finance, so they can analyze the markets for themselves and do independent trading to secure a good income (which really limits our choice of career!)
 
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ldsrptcvt said:
My doubts:

1. If everyone had an HSA, that group in the middle couldn't afford private insurance because the insurance companies would have small 'policyholder bases' (if that's what they call it) and that base wouldn't include those low-use policy holders that keep premiums down.
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Private insurance would cost the same then as it does now, because the 'policyholder basis' doesn't change. In other words, private insurance already separates high/medium/low users, so the medium user costs would remain the same, AND they would have an HSA to draw from.

ldsrptcvt said:
2. Making people in the middle group spend down til they qualify for Medicaid puts them in poverty
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No one said the middle group would have to lower their net worth to qualify for Medicaid. I said most of the middle group would qualify for Emergency Medicaid, which is not regular Medicaid. Emergency Medicaid is a separate program from Medicaid. Emergency Medicaid is for those who do not qualify for regular Medicaid because they make to much, but who also cannot afford the emergency they're experiencing.

ldsrptcvt said:
3. In your investment models, the person needs to be savvy about investing, or pay through the nose for brokers (middlemen - my father detested them).
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Um, no? lol. I have investments and I'm not savvy at all, nor do I 'pay through the nose', nore do I use brokers. I took 1 short class online about investing and use a Certified Public Accountant to set up the IRA. Changing your car's oil is more complicated than investing because once the IRA is set up, you leave it alone for 5-20 years and forget about it, occasionally reading a quarterly or yearly statement on it. IRAs are 100% hands-off until you're ready to start receiving income from them.

ldsrptcvt said:
On a side note, I think Americans are forced to rely too heavily on the stock market, etc. for income. This boils down to gambling and the middlemen brokers are a pestilence. It's come to the point that everyone who goes to college needs to major in finance, so they can analyze the markets for themselves and do independent trading to secure a good income (which really limits our choice of career!)
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Oh you're talking about day-trading, like Wolf Of Wallstreet kind of stock trading. **** day-trading. I don't mess with single stocks. IRAs, HSAs, and ESAs are not like day-trading at all. Two totally different animals.
 
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Wayne Jr said:
Private insurance would cost the same then as it does now, because the 'policyholder basis' doesn't change. In other words, private insurance already separates high/medium/low users, so the medium user costs would remain the same, AND they would have an HSA to draw from.


No one said the middle group would have to lower their net worth to qualify for Medicaid. I said most of the middle group would qualify for Emergency Medicaid, which is not regular Medicaid. Emergency Medicaid is a separate program from Medicaid. Emergency Medicaid is for those who do not qualify for regular Medicaid because they make to much, but who also cannot afford the emergency they're experiencing.


Um, no? lol. I have investments and I'm not savvy at all, nor do I 'pay through the nose', nore do I use brokers. I took 1 short class online about investing and use a Certified Public Accountant to set up the IRA. Changing your car's oil is more complicated than investing because once the IRA is set up, you leave it alone for 5-20 years and forget about it, occasionally reading a quarterly or yearly statement on it. IRAs are 100% hands-off until you're ready to start receiving income from them.



Oh you're talking about day-trading, like Wolf Of Wallstreet kind of stock trading. **** day-trading. I don't mess with single stocks. IRAs, HSAs, and ESAs are not like day-trading at all. Two totally different animals.
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I don't understand you here: "Private insurance would cost the same then as it does now, because the 'policyholder basis' doesn't change. In other words, private insurance already separates high/medium/low users, so the medium user costs would remain the same, AND they would have an HSA to draw from."

wouldn't insurance companies lose the business of most people with an HSA? Losing business, especially the healthy people, they might have (a stab) 1/3 of the policies they once had, with more risk to cover. Are you saying insurance companies could draw from HSA's?
 
ldsrptcvt said:
I don't understand you here: "Private insurance would cost the same then as it does now, because the 'policyholder basis' doesn't change. In other words, private insurance already separates high/medium/low users, so the medium user costs would remain the same, AND they would have an HSA to draw from."

wouldn't insurance companies lose the business of most people with an HSA? Losing business, especially the healthy people, they might have (a stab) 1/3 of the policies they once had, with more risk to cover. Are you saying insurance companies could draw from HSA's?
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HSAs are managed by private insurance policies. They have to be, that's how the law requires them to be handled. By giving everyone an HSA, you're vastly expanding the buisness of private insurers.
 
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