Christians and current events.

[katiegrrl0]

then why exactly are you here? this is a religious thread based on biblical teachings and values?

I was reading the thread and someone said something of interest and I responded.

 

[ludin]

Do you? :lol: Kind of ironic that you are bringing me to task for "knowing more than God," when you are in here actually speaking for Him. He can speak for Himself. He doesn't need some random person on the internet to do it for Him.

I am not speaking for him and simply saying what he has already said.

 

[ludin]

Maybe she is here to learn? I just hope she chooses to learn from a selection of people, and not just the ramblings of one person who presumes to speak for God.

Your dishonesty is noted. No where did I say I was speaking for God.

 

[ludin]

Get a grip.

Gay marriage has been legal in this part of Canada for 17 years, longer in some places in Europe and no Pale Horseman has come to take souls.

I could careless where it is legal or not legal. you don't get to tell me what I can say or not say. you have no authority to do so. so I think it is you that needs
to get a grip.

Get off the righteous band wagon and take a look at your own house, we are taught, us Christians, to love the sinner and hate the sin, to forgive and leave vengeance and punishment to God.

your opinion is irrelevant. no where did I mention hate of any kind. That will not stop me from saying that marriage is between a man and a women regardless of what some people say.

The extreme self righteous Amerikan church head forgets God's most important line "Mind your own business."

you evidently are reading some other bible than the one that I have.

Call me a what you like, but my church has a lesbian pastor...for the record I don't like her, because of her personality not her sexual orientation.

then your church has some many many issues.

 

[tosca1]

Have you ever read anything I've ever written?

My beliefs are rooted in the Bible. Until someone gives me a bible-based, theologically sound reason to believe otherwise, if that ever happens, I take the Bible at its word that homosexual acts are sinful, and that therefore homosexual marriage is ungodly: marriage is a sacred bond and you can't have "sinful sacredness".

So my belief remains that yes it is a sin.


My belief however has no effect on what the law of the land is. I can disagree with it but it is still legal. It will still be done.

I can disagree with it, but the law will mandate that my gay employees SSM partner gets the same benefits as any other spouse. If I refuse to obey the law, the law will force me to comply.


What would you have of me? Shall we now become lawbreakers?

I don't think this is that "line". If told to worship any other than God by law, then I will break the law. This law does not make ME sin personally, it just stops me from acting in what the law considers a discriminatory manner towards the type of marriage that has been declared legal.

I can speak out against it[/U] [/COLOR][/B]all I wish, but I either obey the law or the law will force me to comply anyway.


So tell me plainly, what do you think we are to do? What course of action is left to us? Disobeying the law is a very dubious course of action... have you read Acts and Romans? We are called to peace.


Tell me, in detail, exactly what you think we're supposed to do, and what it will accomplish.

Thanks for clarifying your position.

There isn't much we can do. The only option I see is someone challenging the law all the way to the Supreme Court, but I don't know the mechanics of law if it's even possible to repeal or dismantle something that's already been ruled and written.

I suppose we just have to keep debating about it. Keeping that discussion alive. A reminder to us. To instill it in our children that they may not be confused and swept by this ruling.

It's not the law, but what we believe that's important. We comply because we're forced to comply (to a certain extent, not forsaking our Lord, and/or forced to worship other gods) - but no man-made law should ever erase God's law in our hearts.

 

[Goshin]

Thanks for clarifying your position.

There isn't much we can do. The only option I see is someone challenging the law all the way to the Supreme Court, but I don't know the mechanics of law if it's even possible to repeal or dismantle something that's already been ruled and written.

I suppose we just have to keep debating about it. Keeping that discussion alive. A reminder to us. To instill it in our children that they may not be confused and swept by this ruling.

It's not the law, but what we believe that's important. We comply because we're forced to comply (to a certain extent, not forsaking our Lord, and/or forced to worship other gods) - but no man-made law should ever erase God's law in our hearts.

That's pretty much all I was saying.

We're still free to believe what we want.

Legally though, there's really nothing we can do. It is what it is, and we will have no choice but to comply with the law.

We can dissent in our hearts and speak our minds, but that's about it.

 

[tosca1]

I am not Christian. I do not give a damn about your god.

Well, that answers it!

I will point out that your own faith says that everyone sins, that everyone disobeys god,

What's new? We all know that!

and that there is no evidence that homosexuality is a greater sin than the sins that every other Christian commits every day.

Who says it's a greater sin?

My reaction to this ruling will be no different had the Supreme Court ruled that it's now legal to commit murder, or fraud, or child trafficking!

He also said that everyone sins, and that sin is forgiven

Yes He did. But that doesn't mean He's given us carte blanche to sin.

All His warnings about false teachings, and disobedience to God, would've been for naught if they're not required at all! And there wouldn't be the term, "repentance," that usually comes along with asking for forgiveness!

Repentance, means, a sincere attempt to change one's behaviour. The adulterer would cease - or sincerely fight the temptation to commit any more adultery.
God will be the sole judge of that. He knows what's in our hearts.

The big mistake of some non-Christians is the expectation that a Christian should be sinless.

 

[ludin]

Thanks for clarifying your position.

There isn't much we can do. The only option I see is someone challenging the law all the way to the Supreme Court, but I don't know the mechanics of law if it's even possible to repeal or dismantle something that's already been ruled and written.

I suppose we just have to keep debating about it. Keeping that discussion alive. A reminder to us. To instill it in our children that they may not be confused and swept by this ruling.

It's not the law, but what we believe that's important. We comply because we're forced to comply (to a certain extent, not forsaking our Lord, and/or forced to worship other gods) - but no man-made law should ever erase God's law in our hearts.

There is a 72 hour in which they can attempt to re-argue the case in a different way. it usually never works.
what is sad is that 5 people can redefine something that has been a set precedent from the dawn of time.

next up church and pastor lawsuits for not performing gay marriage or allowing gays to use churches.

religious liberty will erode from there, but it is written that it will happen.

 

[Real Korimyr #9]

Well, that answers it!

I don't have a dog in this fight. I'm just reminding you that you do not speak for Christianity and that the majority of the people opposing you on this are also Christians.

My gods are silent on this issue-- they lead by example, not command-- and my priestess just legally married her spiritual wife of ten years. I am happy about this.

Who says it's a greater sin?

Implicitly, all of the Christians who speak out against homosexuality and gay marriage but keep silent on adultery and legal divorce.

I don't expect Christians to be sinless. I don't expect anything from them, as a general rule. I am merely pointing out that, largely, this is a Christian versus Christian issue rather than an issue of Christians versus some imaginary godless horde trying to "destroy Christianity"; I don't expect people to view political issues realistically, but I like to think I do my part to help them do so.

 

[tosca1]

I don't have a dog in this fight. I'm just reminding you that you do not speak for Christianity and that the majority of the people opposing you on this are also Christians.

I don't claim to speak for Christianity.

What I'm saying, I'm taking from the Bible - I even post the verses!

That's the duty of a Christian. We've been commissioned to spread the Word of God. I'm just repeating what the Bible says.:shrug:

 

[Real Korimyr #9]

The Christians who disagree with you choose to emphasize different verses.

 

[tosca1]

Implicitly, all of the Christians who speak out against homosexuality and gay marriage but keep silent on adultery and legal divorce.

I've seen people here refer to adultery as a sin. Just because it's no longer talked that much doesn't mean it's not considered a grievous sin. The preachers usually talked about adultery in the pulpit, or any sins of the flesh!

When they were just starting to legalize divorce, there were also those who heatedly opposed it, and had stated the slippery slopes that comes with it. We see now a no-fault divorce. You simply change your mind and get a divorce. No reasons necessary. You see how easily marriages and families are broken up this days. I suppose it's more of a resignation - nothing we can do anymore about that. We'll just have to keep talking about the importance and sanctity of marriage, and family - and work hard to instill the same value to our children that they may regard marriage and family the same way we (parents) do. Marriage between two devout Christians has the most chance of lasting til death do them part, imho.

Same sex marriage is now at the time when divorce was at that time. We're doing the same. Those who heatedly oppose it speak of the slippery slopes that come with it.

I don't expect Christians to be sinless. I don't expect anything from them, as a general rule. I am merely pointing out that, largely, this is a Christian versus Christian issue rather than an issue of Christians versus some imaginary godless horde trying to "destroy Christianity"; I don't expect people to view political issues realistically, but I like to think I do my part to help them do so.

This isn't a Christian vs Christian issue! :roll: First of all, Christianity isn't the only religion that opposes same-sex marriage.
And it's more than just a Religion vs secular issue!

It's also about people (of different stripes, whether religious or secular) being watchful how this is eroding our Constitutional rights!

 

[tosca1]

The Christians who disagree with you choose to emphasize different verses.

And I defend my argument by explaining, and giving additional evidences from the Bible to show why my argument is valid.

That's called, debating.

We are in a forum, you know. Opinion(s) hardly means anything here when we're debating.

 

[Real Korimyr #9]

It's also about people (of different stripes, whether religious or secular) being watchful how this is eroding our Constitutional rights!

The ability to control what other people do is not liberty, it is tyranny. Your Constitutional rights have not been affected by this, will not be affected by this, and have nothing to do with this conversation.

This is about the Constitutional rights of homosexuals finally being recognized, and the fact that you are opposed to this means you are on the wrong side of history.

 

[Logicman]

(To Tosca): I'm just reminding you that you do not speak for Christianity and that the majority of the people opposing you on this are also Christians.

FYI, I agree with Tosca and I don't see the merit with your arguments. Tosca has effectively answered your points.

And there's nothing in the Bible that supports either gay sex or gay marriage. Those are man-made constructs, and an abomination to God.

 

[Gathomas88]

And , how do you know that what you think has been revealed to you is actually from God?

That would be a matter of faith.

 

[Logicman]

I consider myself a Christian, raised in the Episcopal Church, although I don't currently belong to any congregation. However, unlike you I don't find any support in the teachings of Christ for the position you and other "Christians" like yourself have taken in regards to homosexuality and same-sex relationships....including the "sanctity" of opposite-sex marriage. In fact, I find no direct command of God in the Old Testament which supports your position either.

So, as long as you adhere to your marriage vows and honor the teachings of Christ, then the sanctity of YOUR marriage is not violated by a similar binding between a same-sex couple. It's as simple as that.

Evidently you aren't aware of who Jesus is.

Jesus is God. As God, Jesus is the one who gave Moses the Levitical law against gay sexual relations to begin with; and he’s the one who inspires all Scripture (2 Timothy 3:16), including prohibitions against gay sexual relations / sexual immorality in Romans 1:26-27, I Corinthians 6:9-10, Revelation 21:7, Jude 7, etc.

It’s also worth noting that Jesus didn’t mention wife beating or other sins such as pedophilia either, and there are not many folks who would argue he approved of those behaviors. So Jesus was under no obligation to reiterate the moral laws against homosexual sin that already existed, unless there were clarifications to be made.

Gay sex is a sin in the Bible, and gay marriage is nothing less than institutionalized sin. What's more, unless gays repent of their gay sex sins then they will perish (Luke 13:3).

Also, regarding your comment in your post on page 1, I don't see the Bible saying the earth is 6,000 years old. It can be 4.5 billion years old and not disagree with scripture. Most Christians I know are 'old earth creationists.'

 

[RGacky3]

Evidently you aren't aware of who Jesus is.

Jesus is God. As God, Jesus is the one who gave Moses the Levitical law against gay sexual relations to begin with; and he’s the one who inspires all Scripture (2 Timothy 3:16), including prohibitions against gay sexual relations / sexual immorality in Romans 1:26-27, I Corinthians 6:9-10, Revelation 21:7, Jude 7, etc.

It’s also worth noting that Jesus didn’t mention wife beating or other sins such as pedophilia either, and there are not many folks who would argue he approved of those behaviors. So Jesus was under no obligation to reiterate the moral laws against homosexual sin that already existed, unless there were clarifications to be made.

Gay sex is a sin in the Bible, and gay marriage is nothing less than institutionalized sin. What's more, unless gays repent of their gay sex sins then they will perish (Luke 13:3).

Also, regarding your comment in your post on page 1, I don't see the Bible saying the earth is 6,000 years old. It can be 4.5 billion years old and not disagree with scripture. Most Christians I know are 'old earth creationists.'

So I take it you're for banning usury as well?

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

Since there is only one true God that must mean all the other Gods are false gods. this is your opinion and not based on anything scriptural.
I would say that you follow a false god and you own ideology that conforms to whatever YOU decide is right or wrong.

What you say is irrelevant. I say YOU follow a false God, and your ideology conforms to what you have chose it to be. Morality is subjective. Your beliefs are yours and apply to no one other than you. The problem here is that, to you, that diminishes the value of your faith. If that is the case, your faith can't have much value to begin with. If it can't stand up on it's own, it can't stand.

God's authority and morality is absolute.

Certainly. It just isn't what you think it is.

yes it means one of us is wrong. you appeal to your own authority not God's authority that is where you error.

No it doesn't. You appeal to your own authority on what God's words are and that is where you make your error.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

That's why we've all been warned about false teachings. When in doubt, refer to the Scriptures!

The Scriptures is the blueprint! It is the manual - the guide - the compass - that we may not be misled!

If we know that the Scriptures stipulated something in such explicit terms - and in spite of that, we've still chosen to follow the preaching that goes contrary to what is stipulated by God - can we beg ignorance as an excuse?

Can we make a fool of God?

Just because you and many others interpret the scriptures incorrectly doesn't mean I have to agree with those misinterpretations.

 

[Captain Adverse]

Evidently you aren't aware of who Jesus is.

Jesus is God. As God, Jesus is the one who gave Moses the Levitical law against gay sexual relations to begin with; and he’s the one who inspires all Scripture (2 Timothy 3:16), including prohibitions against gay sexual relations / sexual immorality in Romans 1:26-27, I Corinthians 6:9-10, Revelation 21:7, Jude 7, etc.

It’s also worth noting that Jesus didn’t mention wife beating or other sins such as pedophilia either, and there are not many folks who would argue he approved of those behaviors. So Jesus was under no obligation to reiterate the moral laws against homosexual sin that already existed, unless there were clarifications to be made.

Gay sex is a sin in the Bible, and gay marriage is nothing less than institutionalized sin. What's more, unless gays repent of their gay sex sins then they will perish (Luke 13:3).

Also, regarding your comment in your post on page 1, I don't see the Bible saying the earth is 6,000 years old. It can be 4.5 billion years old and not disagree with scripture. Most Christians I know are 'old earth creationists.'

Sorry, but it appears you did not read my post. I am quite aware of the connection between Jesus Christ and God.

Furthermore, I have not only read the Bible many times, but have come to realize that the bulk of the Bible is a man-made construct with only the Ten Commandments and the clear instructions of Jesus Christ (as witnessed by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) containing the literal Word of God.

The Old Testament is primarily a "story" of the Jews, written by men. This includes those laws in Leviticus fundamentalists like to quote. I find the way some Christians seem to focus on those laws in Leviticus very selectively strange, since they tend to avoid those laws they recognize as having no merit today (like slavery, punishments for sleeping with a woman during her period, etc.) without a rational explanation for why these are invalid but the ones they quote are not.

Now the New Testament is where Christians should actually look for guidance; found specifically in the commands of Jesus Christ. Jesus spoke of LOVE and acceptance, expressly forbidding us to judge others over and over again since this was up to God alone. Jesus also spoke no word of condemnation against same sex relationships, and his statement about marriage between a man and a woman was in reference to divorce and adultery. Only Paul of Tarsus, in his letters instructing Christian churches in Romans and Corinthians, speaks against it in the New Testament.

Now, as you can see while we are both Christians we clearly differ in our understanding of the Bible. The fact that we don't agree about Biblical interpretation is not unique for members of our faith. In my opinion this is exactly why our Saviour made it perfectly clear that we were incapable of judging our fellow man. Instructing us instead to live our own lives as an example and let others follow it as they may.

BTW, I was not saying the Earth is 6,000 years old. I was responding to a member who spoke of marriage "from the dawn of time," and that since we did not exist at the dawn of time unless they were referring to the belief the world is really only a few thousand years old, I was willing to argue from that point of view.

 

[tosca1]

The ability to control what other people do is not liberty, it is tyranny.

That's right. There is a conflict with Right to Religion, and Freedom of Expression that must be settled.

Your Constitutional rights have not been affected by this, will not be affected by this, and have nothing to do with this conversation.

It has everything to do with this discussion. Those who're not getting this ought to to try to look way past their noses. There is a bigger picture.

This is about the Constitutional rights of homosexuals finally being recognized, and the fact that you are opposed to this means you are on the wrong side of history.

This is about constitutional rights. period.

 

[tosca1]

Just because you and many others interpret the scriptures incorrectly doesn't mean I have to agree with those misinterpretations.

That ours is a misinterpretation, is merely your opinion - and opinions are worth diddly squat in a debate/serious discussion
if you have nothing to substantiate it.

If you want to make an argument of your opinion, support it! Better yet, you want to create a separate thread that will deal
only with biblical debate about homosexuality in the Bible? I'm throwing the gauntlet at you - if you're that confident!

I've given explanation and support to my arguments - all derived from the Bible. The Bible literally defended itself!
All I did was post the verses - which don't need any other interpretations since not only are they quite clear, they're also precised.
Refer to my exchanges with Captain Adverse.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/relig...ians-and-current-events-6.html#post1064768435



You're free though, to tell me what you think of my argument.....and you've got the right to believe what you want to believe.
You don't have to agree with me either. That's the beauty of having the freedom to choose.

I'm not ramming our religious belief down your throats. It's take-it-or-leave-it.

That some find it offensive and intolerable to see that others can freely express what they think or believe - to the point that a few of them had ranted with spittle flying and all, and literally seemed to have had meltdowns, :lol: - DESPITE THE FACT THAT THEY'D WON - shouldn't be our problem.

 

[tosca1]

Sorry, but it appears you did not read my post. I am quite aware of the connection between Jesus Christ and God.

Furthermore, I have not only read the Bible many times, but have come to realize that the bulk of the Bible is a man-made construct with only the Ten Commandments and the clear instructions of Jesus Christ (as witnessed by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) containing the literal Word of God.

The Old Testament is primarily a "story" of the Jews, written by men. This includes those laws in Leviticus fundamentalists like to quote. I find the way some Christians seem to focus on those laws in Leviticus very selectively strange, since they tend to avoid those laws they recognize as having no merit today (like slavery, punishments for sleeping with a woman during her period, etc.) without a rational explanation for why these are invalid but the ones they quote are not.

Now the New Testament is where Christians should actually look for guidance; found specifically in the commands of Jesus Christ. Jesus spoke of LOVE and acceptance, expressly forbidding us to judge others over and over again since this was up to God alone. Jesus also spoke no word of condemnation against same sex relationships, and his statement about marriage between a man and a woman was in reference to divorce and adultery. Only Paul of Tarsus, in his letters instructing Christian churches in Romans and Corinthians, speaks against it in the New Testament.

Now, as you can see while we are both Christians we clearly differ in our understanding of the Bible. The fact that we don't agree about Biblical interpretation is not unique for members of our faith. In my opinion this is exactly why our Saviour made it perfectly clear that we were incapable of judging our fellow man. Instructing us instead to live our own lives as an example and let others follow it as they may.

BTW, I was not saying the Earth is 6,000 years old. I was responding to a member who spoke of marriage "from the dawn of time," and that since we did not exist at the dawn of time unless they were referring to the belief the world is really only a few thousand years old, I was willing to argue from that point of view.

You never answered my question.

If you believe the Apostles were not God-inspired, and you're only taking what came out of Jesus mouth as the truth.....who do you think wrote quotes from Jesus in the Bible?

ANSWER, please.

 

[Amadeus]

What's more, unless gays repent of their gay sex sins then they will perish (Luke 13:3).

Yes, gay people will eventually die, but they will die happy and fulfilled, not unhappy and hateful like conservative Christians.