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Christians and current events.

Sherman123 said:
A 'Messianic Jew' i.e. a Jew who believes that Jesus Christ is the moshiach, is still a Jew. However virtually the entirety of the Jewish community, whether Reform or Chassidic, would (at the very least) view that individual as heretical.
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A 'messianic Jew' might be of Jewish heritage (most are not). However, a messanic Jew is not of the Jewish faith.
 
Jews who believe Jesus was the messiah are known as "Christians". Jews are still waithing for a Messiah who fits their criteria to arrive. (Jesus failed their audition)
 
RAMOSS said:
A 'messianic Jew' might be of Jewish heritage (most are not). However, a messanic Jew is not of the Jewish faith.
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I don't know of any major Halackhic body in the world which would deny that a Jew, born of a Jewish mother, would cease to be a Jew because of their 'conversion' to Christianity. Being a Jew is, from a religious perspective, inseparable from your identity. You either are a Jew or you are not. You cannot be a practitioner of the Jewish faith without being Jewish, but you can absolutely be a Jew, Halakhically speaking, without practicing the ancestral faith.
 
Sherman123 said:
I don't know of any major Halackhic body in the world which would deny that a Jew, born of a Jewish mother, would cease to be a Jew because of their 'conversion' to Christianity. Being a Jew is, from a religious perspective, inseparable from your identity. You either are a Jew or you are not. You cannot be a practitioner of the Jewish faith without being Jewish, but you can absolutely be a Jew, Halakhically speaking, without practicing the ancestral faith.
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Like I said, they are of Jewish heritage, but not of Jewish religion. If the child is openly practicably Christianity, then he is not considered of the Jewish faith. There is disagreement what the status is, but someone who converts to Christianity, for example, won't be eligible to migrate to Israel with the 'law of return. On the other hand, they might not need to go through the conversion process if they decide to return to Judaism.

According to Israel, messianic Jews are not practicing Judaism, and are ineligible to migrate to Israel on the 'Law of Return'.
 
RAMOSS said:
Like I said, they are of Jewish heritage, but not of Jewish religion. If the child is openly practicably Christianity, then he is not considered of the Jewish faith. There is disagreement what the status is, but someone who converts to Christianity, for example, won't be eligible to migrate to Israel with the 'law of return. On the other hand, they might not need to go through the conversion process if they decide to return to Judaism.
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But I think you are operating on a misunderstanding of what constitutes a 'Jew' from a halackhic perspective. Of course they wouldn't need to go through a 'conversion' process, afterall they were always Jews. Heretical? Yes. Not Jewish? Impossible. Every Beth Din in the world, from the ultra-orthodox courts of Kiryas Joel to the proceedings of both the Sephardic and Ashkenazi Chief Rabbinate's in Israel, would classify a Jew who practices Christianity as a Jew. That the Israeli Supreme Court and the Israeli Government, as a matter of public policy, have rejected preferential immigration for those people. They are heretics and removed from the midst of the Jewish community and Jewish 'faith' but are they Jews? Yes.
 
RAMOSS said:
Like I said, they are of Jewish heritage, but not of Jewish religion. If the child is openly practicably Christianity, then he is not considered of the Jewish faith. There is disagreement what the status is, but someone who converts to Christianity, for example, won't be eligible to migrate to Israel with the 'law of return. On the other hand, they might not need to go through the conversion process if they decide to return to Judaism.

According to Israel, messianic Jews are not practicing Judaism, and are ineligible to migrate to Israel on the 'Law of Return'.
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That is not the way I understand it, though I haven't looked up the rules regarding that for some time and I'm working from memory here. I think it was in the late 80's that the issue came up and the Israeli court ruled that Messianic Jews were not eligible for Aliyah (right of return.) But if I remember it right, that was challenged I think in 2008??? and the Israeli high court overturned the earlier law and returned to the original concept that the Law of Return applied to anyone who can claim Jewish ancestry. They also relaxed the rules and now accept most non-Jewish close relative of the returning Jews as well.

So I think unless the law has been amended again since 2008, Messianic Jews are not excluded just because they embrace Christianity.
 
By way of further explanation though 'Messianic Jews' or "Jews for Jesus" are barred under Israel's Law of Return Section

"4A. (a) The rights of a Jew under this Law and the rights of an oleh under the Nationality Law, 5712-1952***, as well as the rights of an oleh under any other enactment, are also vested in a child and a grandchild of a Jew, the spouse of a Jew, the spouse of a child of a Jew and the spouse of a grandchild of a Jew, except for a person who has been a Jew and has voluntarily changed his religion."

This is a legal and policy distinction not a religious one.
 
AlbqOwl said:
That is not the way I understand it, though I haven't looked up the rules regarding that for some time and I'm working from memory here. I think it was in the late 80's that the issue came up and the Israeli court ruled that Messianic Jews were not eligible for Aliyah (right of return.) But if I remember it right, that was challenged I think in 2008??? and the Israeli high court overturned the earlier law and returned to the original concept that the Law of Return applied to anyone who can claim Jewish ancestry. They also relaxed the rules and now accept most non-Jewish close relative of the returning Jews as well.

So I think unless the law has been amended again since 2008, Messianic Jews are not excluded just because they embrace Christianity.
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It was challenged but only on a narrow basis relating to converts.
 
Full disclosure: I am an irreligious Jew who nevertheless has an academic interest in both Torah and Talmud.
 
Actually this was explicitly mentioned in the Israeli Supreme Court decision in question. Justice Barack in particular rejected the interpretation of "Jew" in the Law of Return according to religion as this would obviously yield the result that Messianic Jews were "Jews". Instead he argued that despite the pseudo-halachic definition of a "Jew" in the Law of Return, the law is a secular-national construction and should be interpreted on that basis--not religious law.
 
Sherman123 said:
But I think you are operating on a misunderstanding of what constitutes a 'Jew' from a halackhic perspective. Of course they wouldn't need to go through a 'conversion' process, afterall they were always Jews. Heretical? Yes. Not Jewish? Impossible. Every Beth Din in the world, from the ultra-orthodox courts of Kiryas Joel to the proceedings of both the Sephardic and Ashkenazi Chief Rabbinate's in Israel, would classify a Jew who practices Christianity as a Jew. That the Israeli Supreme Court and the Israeli Government, as a matter of public policy, have rejected preferential immigration for those people. They are heretics and removed from the midst of the Jewish community and Jewish 'faith' but are they Jews? Yes.
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Like I said, it depends are you looking at 'heritage' or 'religion'. A person who practices another religion is not considered "Jewish" enough to be covered by 'the right of return' under Israeli law. That includes Messianic Jews. THere is a special name for Messianic Jews among mainstream Jews. They are called 'Christians'.
 
RAMOSS said:
Like I said, it depends are you looking at 'heritage' or 'religion'. A person who practices another religion is not considered "Jewish" enough to be covered by 'the right of return' under Israeli law. That includes Messianic Jews. THere is a special name for Messianic Jews among mainstream Jews. They are called 'Christians'.
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From the perspective of Halackha and religious Judaism a "Jewish Christian" is a Jew. Whether or not they receive that appellation in cultural or political settings is a very different matter. At the Passover table would you call a Messianic Jew a Jew? Probably not. Would your Rabbi or local Beth Din? Absolutely.
 
Sherman123 said:
From the perspective of Halackha and religious Judaism a "Jewish Christian" is a Jew. Whether or not they receive that appellation in cultural or political settings is a very different matter. At the Passover table would you call a Messianic Jew a Jew? Probably not. Would your Rabbi or local Beth Din? Absolutely.
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Uh. No.
 
RAMOSS said:
Uh. No.
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Yes, unquestionably. This is a principle as old as the covenant. They would reject Messianic Judaism as being Judaism, but they would all accept an individual who has a Jewish mother (with sufficient matrilineal heritage if the issue is in question) as a Jew.
 
Sherman123 said:
Yes, unquestionably. This is a principle as old as the covenant. They would reject Messianic Judaism as being Judaism, but they would all accept an individual who has a Jewish mother (with sufficient matrilineal heritage if the issue is in question) as a Jew.
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But not of the Jewish faith. And also, most of the people in the Messianic Judaism movement are not of Jewish heritage.
 
RAMOSS said:
But not of the Jewish faith. And also, most of the people in the Messianic Judaism movement are not of Jewish heritage.
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The Jewish 'faith' and being Jewish are not identical. Every Halackic body in the world would recognize that a Jew who practices Islam or Christianity or Flying Spaghetti Monsterism is still a Jew. They are merely heretical Jews (though there is other terminology that would probably be used). Whether or not a Jew chooses to practice his ancestral faith is immaterial to whether or not that individual is a Jew.
 
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