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Christian Abortion Hypocrisy [W: 439]

How is it satire? It's the truth and women live by it. If we dont want to accept the consequences of a pregnancy, we shouldnt have sex.

And if we do so, intentionally or accidentally or drunk or stupidly or disillusioned thinking a man loves us...it doesnt matter... we still have to pay the consequences I listed. We *have no escape.*

Heh, I get it now...we can make choices that men have no control over. That's it, isnt it? Yeah, I've seen alot of men posting about that resentment. That's the part about being 'punished,' eh?' That women can escape from *men controlling them,* even tho they cant escape the consequences of pregnancy.

Wow.

Again, the problem is not that I resent women. I do not resent women. I do not want to control women. I am perfectly fine with women freely making decisions.

I explicitly stated that the question I posed was satire of your question. Maybe you don't understand what satire is, so I will include a definition here for your use:


sat·ire
/ˈsaˌtī(ə)r/
noun
the use of humor, irony, exaggeration, or ridicule to expose and criticize people's stupidity or vices, particularly in the context of contemporary politics and other topical issues.
synonyms: mockery, ridicule, derision, scorn, caricature;


In short: It is ridiculous that you expect women to be free to make decisions for men. Women should not be forcing men to do anything, just like men should not be forcing women to do anything.

Forced fatherhood is abusive and parasitic. The pro choice position is as hypocritical as the pro life position, but for a different reason.
 
You keep saying medical decision. Each one is a consequence....a painful possibly life-altering one. So now you think that men should be able to TELL a woman which of those she must accept? Just for a man's convenience (in which his life or health is never in jeopardy)? And if she doesnt pick the painful, life-altering choice for your convenience, then she's a parasite???

We cannot escape consequences of a pregnancy and accept that. If we choose to have sex, we have to accept that.

Why cant men accept that if they have sex resulting in a pregnancy, their consequence is that they dont have control over a woman's decision?

Please tell me why? It's a very specific question.

You can avoid parenthood...you just dont want to give up sex without consequences

Again, I do not expect men to be telling women what to do. I expect women to not be forcing men into situations where their two choices are: have money or go to prison.
 
Oh we certainly will. I'm not here to discuss any changes to healthcare law. I'm here to discuss changes to the law regarding abortion, which is the topic of this forum. Men should have a choice in the matter, and a choice is not being forced to go to prison because you're poor.

A poor or selfish woman that wont pay child support goes to jail too. So?

Please provide some law that can force women to have abortions against their will. (good luck with that).

Now please provide some law that allows men to opt out of child support or custody that does not place the burden for their voluntarily donated DNA on taxpayers who arent responsible?
 
Again, I do not expect men to be telling women what to do. I expect women to not be forcing men into situations where their two choices are: have money or go to prison.

Btw, women dont decide that men pay child support. The state/county does. Even if a woman refuses to identify the father, the state/county coerces her into doing so and refuses benefits unless she does or submits child DNA. To protect the child and to protect the taxpayers.
 
Again, the problem is not that I resent women. I do not resent women. I do not want to control women. I am perfectly fine with women freely making decisions.

I explicitly stated that the question I posed was satire of your question. Maybe you don't understand what satire is, so I will include a definition here for your use:


sat·ire
/ˈsaˌtī(ə)r/
noun
the use of humor, irony, exaggeration, or ridicule to expose and criticize people's stupidity or vices, particularly in the context of contemporary politics and other topical issues.
synonyms: mockery, ridicule, derision, scorn, caricature;


In short: It is ridiculous that you expect women to be free to make decisions for men. Women should not be forcing men to do anything, just like men should not be forcing women to do anything.

Forced fatherhood is abusive and parasitic. The pro choice position is as hypocritical as the pro life position, but for a different reason.

It wasnt satire because it's true. Women have operated under those constraints and consequences for...ever.

I realize now you think it's satire because you cannot even comprehend not being entitled to sex without consequences.

It has never ever been possible for women. And now, with technology and DNA testing...it no longer is for men either. That is not women's fault.

And if you dont want a woman to have the ability to make decisions for you...dont deposit your sperm in her. Again: please tell me why this is not an option? Do you want to protect yourself from parenthood or not? Are you saying you are unable to control this?
 
Btw, women dont decide that men pay child support. The state/county does. Even if a woman refuses to identify the father, the state/county coerces her into doing so and refuses benefits unless she does or submits child DNA. To protect the child and to protect the taxpayers.
Well, technically women do decide whether or not men pay child support. That is less of a problem than the coercion and the misconception that the abuse of men is protective of children or taxpayers.

A poor or selfish woman that wont pay child support goes to jail too. So?

Please provide some law that can force women to have abortions against their will. (good luck with that).

Now please provide some law that allows men to opt out of child support or custody that does not place the burden for their voluntarily donated DNA on taxpayers who arent responsible?

A poor and selfish woman chose to carry a pregnancy to term or engage in a marital partnership with a man who had children. She made a choice that only she could make. No man forced her to do that. In contrast, men who go to prison are victims because women made the choice for them.

Involuntary servitude occurs when men who live in poverty are forced to pay more than they can afford. It is only one part of the issue, however it is a clear indication that forced fatherhood is racist and illegal.

http://webshare.law.ucla.edu/Faculty/bibs/zatz/Zatz-NewPeonage.pdf
 
Well, technically women do decide whether or not men pay child support. That is less of a problem than the coercion and the misconception that the abuse of men is protective of children or taxpayers.



A poor and selfish woman chose to carry a pregnancy to term or engage in a marital partnership with a man who had children. She made a choice that only she could make. No man forced her to do that. In contrast, men who go to prison are victims because women made the choice for them.

Involuntary servitude occurs when men who live in poverty are forced to pay more than they can afford. It is only one part of the issue, however it is a clear indication that forced fatherhood is racist and illegal.

http://webshare.law.ucla.edu/Faculty/bibs/zatz/Zatz-NewPeonage.pdf

Women dont always choose to not have custody. It's removed from them for lots of reasons.

Once there is a kid, it's equal for men and women.

And jurisdictions make it very difficult for a woman do deny identifying the fathers. It's not impossible, but it's very hard.
 
It wasnt satire because it's true. Women have operated under those constraints and consequences for...ever.
It was satire, and it was a question, not a true statement.

I realize now that you are a bigoted, chauvinistic girl who hates the patriarchy. It's very sad that you cannot behave with civility toward men due to your bias against them.

You know, there are some racists like you, too. White nationalists want to be free to make their own choices, kind of like you want women to make choices. And they want to make choices on the basis of a biological factor (race). But we do not entertain those racist notions in a civil society because when racist choices are made, then minorities suffer. Men being "the patriarchy" or a "majority" in some field doesn't lessen the evil of sexism against men. This is why your position is abusive.

I think your questions about men controlling women's decisions are loaded. That is why I posed a satirical question with the gender roles reversed. For some reason, although you are clearly aware of institutional sexism against women, you cannot understand the basic parallel of my satirical question to yours. You cannot understand it even though it was worded exactly the same, except for the reversal of female and male genders.

So you are so biased that you cannot understand your position as it applies to an equitable solution. Your position reduces to disregard for men. I don't think that's very good for women.
 
Women dont always choose to not have custody. It's removed from them for lots of reasons.

Once there is a kid, it's equal for men and women.

And jurisdictions make it very difficult for a woman do deny identifying the fathers. It's not impossible, but it's very hard.

Women should always choose to not have custody when they abort a pregnancy. When a fetus is removed from a woman's body, she is making a choice to not have a child, which implies that she will not have custody of an additional child.

I can appreciate the difficulties that women have in exercising their rights, but right now, men have nothing. Women have something.

If you and other women continue to blindly push this misandrist rhetoric, there will be a backlash. The backlash will affect the autonomy of women.
 
LMAO it's not remotely racist...you dont choose your gender (at least until recently) or race. You choose to deposit your sperm in a potential mother.

If you dont want to be a parent...dont deposit your sperm where it can grow.

Talk about victimhood! :roll:

This is exactly the point. How could you be so blind? You don't choose your race, yet some races disproportionately live in poverty. Why?

When members of certain racial demographics are faced with prison because they live in poverty, while members of certain other racial demographics do not, that's racist!

Being a member of a racial demographic which has historically been financially abused puts one at risk for being sent to prison because they are a member of that race. Just like being male or female determines whether or not one can choose to be a parent. Women can choose and men cannot. Minorities who were born into poverty can't choose, while many who were not born into poverty (but wealth instead) can choose to be a parent.
 
Again, I do not expect men to be telling women what to do. I expect women to not be forcing men into situations where their two choices are: have money or go to prison.

Are you saying that if you have no source of income, you will be sent to jail for failing to pay child support?

I am shocked, can you show me where this happens?

But again, I am with Lursa....first and foremost if you figure out a way to prevent semen from entering a vagina.....the problem stands a good chance of being solved.

Now what could that solution be?
 
Are you saying that if you have no source of income, you will be sent to jail for failing to pay child support?

I am shocked, can you show me where this happens?

But again, I am with Lursa....first and foremost if you figure out a way to prevent semen from entering a vagina.....the problem stands a good chance of being solved.

Now what could that solution be?

I know what the solution is to poverty. I am not attempting to solve women's problems. I'm not solving the problem of abortion. I am pointing out the hypocrisy of the left and the pro choice movement with regard to abortion.

The Left's Hypocrisy:
Institutionalized racism is the disproportionate incarceration of minorities! But disproportionate incarceration of men? Nah, it's not sexist at all.

Forced fatherhood is the result of not allowing men an abortive option, i.e. the freedom to be a parent at will, and not because a woman or a judge or a taxpayer decided for you. Men do not force women to be mothers and women should not force men to be fathers. The problem is that minorities and men are being sent to jail. Zatz shows that this is illegal. I claim that it is discriminatory.
 
I think it's incredibly distasteful to pretend to not know about civil contempt. It would be like saying, 'yeah abortion is illegal for women, but so what? They can do whatever they want.'
 
This is exactly the point. How could you be so blind? You don't choose your race, yet some races disproportionately live in poverty. Why?

When members of certain racial demographics are faced with prison because they live in poverty, while members of certain other racial demographics do not, that's racist!

Being a member of a racial demographic which has historically been financially abused puts one at risk for being sent to prison because they are a member of that race. Just like being male or female determines whether or not one can choose to be a parent. Women can choose and men cannot. Minorities who were born into poverty can't choose, while many who were not born into poverty (but wealth instead) can choose to be a parent.

Not remotely applicable. Total victimhood here.

Men can choose. You have yet to even address that *fact*

Men have complete control over their sperm. Slaves dont have choices. Slaves dont have control. Men have complete control over their sperm.

So can you tell me why they dont want to exercise that control *in their own best interests?* Instead of playing victim?
(And to their credit, I wouldnt say most men do)
 
It was satire, and it was a question, not a true statement.

I realize now that you are a bigoted, chauvinistic girl who hates the patriarchy. It's very sad that you cannot behave with civility toward men due to your bias against them.

What kind of made up crap is that? I havent been remotely uncivil, I've been very courteous.

And what you wrote IS TRUE. Not satire. Again...this is your mistaken perception if you think it's satire.

Because yes, women CAN decide not to have sex. Women can decide before having sex. Women suffer almost all the burden of child rearing and ALL the burden of pregnancy, yet you think they do that to punish men? You make a ridiculous statement like that when you accuse me of being against men? :doh
 
Women should always choose to not have custody when they abort a pregnancy. When a fetus is removed from a woman's body, she is making a choice to not have a child, which implies that she will not have custody of an additional child.

I can appreciate the difficulties that women have in exercising their rights, but right now, men have nothing. Women have something.

If you and other women continue to blindly push this misandrist rhetoric, there will be a backlash. The backlash will affect the autonomy of women.

Now "men have nothing." :roll: And then threats! :doh

Thanks, you just really proved your position...100% If you think that, after reading this reality:

No women that gets pregnant can avoid paying the consequences, there is no escape. There are only 4 scenarios:

--she has a kid
--miscarriage
--abortion
--dying during pregnancy/childbirth

And she can die or suffer permanent health damage from the first 3 too.

However men escape consequences in*all but one of those*. If they are pissed they get stuck with that one...then since they know it before they have sex...either dont have sex or accept that your consequence is that you dont have control over the woman's choices.

Are you suggesting that men dont have control over their own decisions? That they are some kind of victims when they know ahead of time and can choose?


And without ever once addressing the fact that men can completely control their risks of parenthood by deciding before the have sex (because you believe you are still entitled to sex without consequences)... we now have a complete picture of your bitterness and resentment.

So play the victim then...and ignore the consequences at your own risk. But dont whine about it...because you knew the risks and accepted them. Unless you cant control yourself?
 
Last edited:
I know what the solution is to poverty. I am not attempting to solve women's problems. I'm not solving the problem of abortion. I am pointing out the hypocrisy of the left and the pro choice movement with regard to abortion.

The Left's Hypocrisy:
Institutionalized racism is the disproportionate incarceration of minorities! But disproportionate incarceration of men? Nah, it's not sexist at all.

Forced fatherhood is the result of not allowing men an abortive option, i.e. the freedom to be a parent at will, and not because a woman or a judge or a taxpayer decided for you. Men do not force women to be mothers and women should not force men to be fathers. The problem is that minorities and men are being sent to jail. Zatz shows that this is illegal. I claim that it is discriminatory.

Kids cost money.

If possible I would like the tax payer left out of it.

The best chance of either the man or the woman to avoid the chance of unintended pregnancy is for both to use birth control or to abstain.

Regardless of what the law is...I do firmly believe that a woman should not be able to adopt a child out without notifying the father (if known).

I have no issue with women paying child support and men having full custody.
 
Kids cost money.

If possible I would like the tax payer left out of it.

The best chance of either the man or the woman to avoid the chance of unintended pregnancy is for both to use birth control or to abstain.

Regardless of what the law is...I do firmly believe that a woman should not be able to adopt a child out without notifying the father (if known).

I have no issue with women paying child support and men having full custody.

I know. And he brought up the closed adoptions, not us. But then when I said we should change the laws, he said it wasnt relevant :doh

Then when I said great, we wont worry about changing laws :mrgreen:, he was all about changing laws re: abortion (yet he's mentioned none).

But no discussing changing laws for closed adoptions! It's not abortion! That's right...then dont bring it up! :doh
 
..., yet you think they do that to punish men? You make a ridiculous statement like that when you accuse me of being against men? :doh
YOU PROBABLY SHOULD JUST IGNORE HIM. Just like an abortion opponent, he keeps blathering the same idiocy, even though his arguments have been totally destroyed in other Threads. Just like abortion opponents, he refuses to exhibit the integrity associated with admitting he is wrong. Men paying child support is exactly as much punishment for multiple stupidities (see #389 of this Thread), as going to jail is punishment for the stupidity of robbing a bank. Any other interpretation is just selfishness trying to get others to pay for the man's stupidity.
 
YOU PROBABLY SHOULD JUST IGNORE HIM. Just like an abortion opponent, he keeps blathering the same idiocy, even though his arguments have been totally destroyed in other Threads. Just like abortion opponents, he refuses to exhibit the integrity associated with admitting he is wrong. Men paying child support is exactly as much punishment for multiple stupidities (see #389 of this Thread), as going to jail is punishment for the stupidity of robbing a bank. Any other interpretation is just selfishness trying to get others to pay for the man's stupidity.

When the law provides that a woman involved in a consensual sexual relationship has a choice over whether or not she can work, but a man does not have that choice, the law is clearly discriminatory against men.

Men have no more of a choice than pay, work, or go to jail. Do you think that the slave trade didn't involve a similar choice, and that slaves were not actually forced to labor, but chose to work for free? No, they were forced to do it on penalty of death. In the US we should not tolerate involuntary servitude, which is forced labor on penalty of imprisonment. Forced fatherhood is illegal.

It's very unfortunate that you compare a consensual sexual relationship to 'robbing a bank.'

And yes, I brought up adoptions. I did not question the legal status of adoption, because I do not think that the state should be in control of private adoptions. The state should be concerned with ensuring the welfare of children by utilizing public funds, not by exploiting men.
 
When the law provides that a woman involved in a consensual sexual relationship
NOT THE SAME THING AS A CONSENSUAL SAFE-SEX RELATIONSHIP. Which is where the man can become very guilty of Stupidity, by not ensuring the consesual relationship is safe-sex only.

has a choice over whether or not she can work, but a man does not have that choice,
STUPIDITY SQUARED! On the one hand (history), you have it backward, since many employers have discriminated against hiring women because of something like, "you will get pregnant and leave the company and our training-investment in you will have been wasted".

ALSO, there are folks out there who specifically claim that marriage is just another form of prostitution, which means that the woman in the consensual sexual realtionship is most certainly working!

the law is clearly discriminatory against men.
STUPIDLY FALSE, as just explained above.

Men have no more of a choice than pay, work, or go to jail.
STUPIDLY FALSE, AGAIN. Men can choose to starve to death, after all. They can choose to become beggars/panhandlers. Sometimes, depending on their family connections, they can choose to mooch off others. They can even choose to run into a burning building to save someone, and die heroically.

Do you think that the slave trade didn't involve a similar choice, and that slaves were not actually forced to labor, but chose to work for free?
APPARENTLY YOU HAVEN'T STUDIED IT ENOUGH. Maybe you should look up why, when slavers tried to enslave Native Americans, it didn't last.

ALSO, YOU ARE TRYING TO MIX APPLES AND ORANGES. Slavery can happen through no fault of the enslaved. But men paying child-support are 100% at-fault and paying the price of stupidity, in not ensuring their consensual sexual relationship was a safe-sex relationship.

{SNIP} The rest of your blather add nothing new. You are still trying to get others to pay for the man's stupidity.
 
NOT THE SAME THING
What thing?
AS A CONSENSUAL SAFE-SEX RELATIONSHIP.
Who got raped?
Which is where the man can become very guilty of Stupidity
Anyone can be guilty of stupidity, but no stupid person can be sentenced to involuntary servitude according to the law. Due process will not allow it to happen legally at any point, or in any shape or form. Forced fatherhood is illegal, for example.
by not ensuring the consesual relationship is safe-sex only.
What do you mean by safe?


STUPIDITY SQUARED!
This quantity is more or less equivalent to itself, near zero intelligence, as are you. It is redundant and unnecessary to include an operator of this nature in this debate, just as it would be redundant to cube stupidity.

On the one hand (history), you have it backward
Incorrect.
since many employers have discriminated against hiring women because of something like, "you will get pregnant and leave the company and our training-investment in you will have been wasted".
Irrelevant. Employers telling women to take a hike does not justify forcing men to work. They are two sides of the same coin.

ALSO, there are folks out there who specifically claim that marriage is just another form of prostitution, which means that the woman in the consensual sexual realtionship is most certainly working!
Here's a tip: before linking a website from a google search, click on the link and copy the link from the website instead of copying the link from the search. That way I can see what the website is before I click on one of your spam links. Maybe then I would actually check to see if your sources are legitimate, instead of assuming that they are garbage like the ones you previously shared, or else completely irrelevant and pointless.

STUPIDLY FALSE
Incorrect, and I reiterate that the law discriminates against men by giving women more choices than men, beyond what is necessary for their health and well being.

, as just explained above.
The explanation is incorrect.

STUPIDLY FALSE, AGAIN.
This is still wrong.

Men can choose to starve to death, after all.
Men need not starve themselves to death, they can simply will themselves to death. There is no parallel here between a financially abusive law and suicide, because the law gives women a real choice and men a choice between prison and slavery. Prison and slavery are more or less identical, because inmates can be forced to work. Thus it is a choice between two identical options, and therefore not a choice.

They can choose to become beggars/panhandlers.
So can a pregnant woman who can't afford to feed her child when it is born. That doesn't make it the right thing to do.

Sometimes, depending on their family connections, they can choose to mooch off others.
So can a pregnant woman, or a mother.

They can even choose to run into a burning building to save someone, and die heroically.
None of these terrible actions are exclusively limited to the male sex. Your argument is pointless, because it simply describes actions which end badly. These have nothing to do with the discussion and it is very stupid.

APPARENTLY YOU HAVEN'T STUDIED IT ENOUGH.
That statement is objectively false, rhetorically pointless and sociopolitically stunted.

Maybe you should look up why, when slavers tried to enslave Native Americans, it didn't last.
Maybe you should explain how this related to the transatlantic slave trade, or abortion in the context of this discussion, or maybe you are going off topic because you don't have the mental capacity to reason with other people.

(cont.)
 
Continued from the previous post.

ALSO, YOU ARE TRYING TO MIX APPLES AND ORANGES.
Wrong.
Slavery can happen through no fault of the enslaved.
As is the case with the men who are incarcerated because a child was born through no fault of their own.
But men paying child-support are 100% at-fault and paying the price of stupidity
Men do not have vaginas and are therefore not capable of making a decision, stupid or otherwise, which causes the birth of a child.

in not ensuring their consensual sexual relationship was a safe-sex relationship.
This is irrelevant. Men who use condoms cannot ensure that women won't engage in stealthing aka self insemination for financial gain.

You are still trying to get others to pay for the man's stupidity.
Nope, I am trying to ensure that children are provided with the best society can offer, regardless of the stupid decisions made by a woman about her body. Men may have nothing to do with it.
 
[part 1 of 2, in reply to Msg #498]

What thing? Who got raped?
LYING ABOUT WHAT I WROTE GETS YOU NOWHERE. A consensual sexual relationship is not the same thing as a consensual safe-sex relationship. How is that not obvious?

Anyone can be guilty of stupidity, but no stupid person can be sentenced to involuntary servitude according to the law.
COMMITTING STUPID ACTIONS GETS THEM SENTENCED TO INVOLUNTARY SERVITUDE. And in this case, the man committed the stupid action of not practicing safe sex.

Forced fatherhood is illegal, for example.
A STUPID LIE. Punishment for the stupid action of not practicing safe sex is exactly as legal as punishment for the stupid action of robbing a bank.

What do you mean by safe?
ENSURING NO PREGNANCY CAN HAPPEN. There are multiple ways to do that. For example, the man could seek a relationship with a woman who has had a hysterectomy. Failure to act with safety in mind is an extremely common cause of many different problems. Here, though, only one problem needs to be addressed: prevention of unwanted pregnancies. If a man doesn't want to cause a pregnancy, but takes no steps to ensure it doesn't happen, then "stupid" is absolutely the most accurate description of that man's actions.

Incorrect.
YOUR MERE SAY-SO IS WORTHLESS. You cannot offer any supporting evidence, that is superior to what I've presented about about punishment for stupid actions.

Irrelevant.
HAW! HAW!! HAW!!! You made a claim and I proved your wrong. Now you want to wiggle out, refusing to exhibit the integrity associated with admitting you were wrong. Tsk, tsk! (and your next bit of blather is unrelated to what you originally wrote, so I'm snipping it)

Here's a tip:
HERE'S A BETTER TIP: Consider that I might have linked exactly what I wanted to link, which was lots of links supporting a claim I made. (why should I pick just one when many are available?)

Incorrect,
ONCE AGAIN YOUR MERE UNSUPPORTED SAY-SO ACCOMPLISHES NOTHING. Tsk, tsk!

and I reiterate that the law discriminates against men by giving women more choices than men, beyond what is necessary for their health and well being.
STUPIDLY FALSE. The Equal Rights Amendment still has not yet been passed. Until it gets passed, you are blathering a Stupid Lie.

The explanation is incorrect. This is still wrong
AGAIN AND AGAIN YOUR MERE UNSUPPORTED SAY-SO IS WORTHLESS. Tsk, tsk!
 
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