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Christian Abortion Hypocrisy [W: 439]

Re: Christian Abortion Hypocrisy

So, drowning a million rabbits and squirrels snuffed out evil?

The god in the O/T is evil. Not the rabbits, squirrels and others he decided to summarily execute. :roll:

Once again, you have no objective moral basis for determining what is evil. Yours is based on subjective moral relativism.
 
Re: Christian Abortion Hypocrisy

Once again, you have no objective moral basis for determining what is evil. Yours is based on subjective moral relativism.

What do you not get about beliefs?

They are subjective .
 
Re: Christian Abortion Hypocrisy

While many beliefs are subjective, at some point one must consider absolute truth. I would hope and assume that everybody on this forum agrees that murder is wrong. Because of this, the question must be posed: why is it that humanity has a universal, basic code of conduct? Because humans naturally tend to disagree, it is a matter of curiosity that some things can be agreed on entirely at all, such as not murdering people. Because of our natural state of disagreement, these obvious moral truths that we all agree on must be given by something or someone. Christianity points to a God that has the Law written on the hearts of humanity. “Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them” (Romans 2:14-15)
This explains the human conscience, even for those who are not Christians. Now, with abortion, the real issue is whether life begins at conception or not. The Bible points to that being the case in Psalm 51:5, "Since we are sinful from the moment of conception..." and also in Psalm 139:13, where it says, “For You created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb." This suggests that God is involved from the very beginning, and that from conception, each human being is special.
 
Re: Christian Abortion Hypocrisy

Have you ever seriously read the Bible? It sure doesn't sound like it.
I DID, BUT STOPPED AT DEUTERONOMY 17:9-12. That's where it reveals the whole purpose of the Bible is to form the basis of a Government Of The People, By The Preachers, And For The Preachers. You do know, don't you, that it was preachers who assembled the Bible? Do you think they included anything that didn't benefit themselves? Ha!

OF THE REST, I've read pieces here and there, usually large-enough pieces to be sure of understanding the context. Of course, since most of the context is all about benefiting the preachers.... Consider Revelations: It's all about what's supposed to happen if folks don't obey the preachers! See?
 
Re: Christian Abortion Hypocrisy

The whole point of the Bible is to point to Christ Jesus as the Lord and Savior of humanity, which is sinful. Priests taught Old Testament Law, and modern Jewish priests still do. However, the point has never been to cause panic and force adherence to priests. It points humanity to Christ, and is a religious book with politics in it, not a political book with religion in it. Not only that, but Old testament Law (such as in Deuteronomy) was a part of the old covenant. Jesus fulfilled that with his ultimate sacrifice, and we now have the new covenant, which does not require a religious regime.
 
Re: Christian Abortion Hypocrisy

Two things: 1. God gives the spirit of man / woman in the womb.
A PROVABLY STUPID/IRRATIONAL LIE. As I already showed. Your mere say-so means nothing. Especially it means nothing when other Religions disagree with you!! So, why should anyone think your claim is superior to theirs, eh?

2. God gives people free will, to abort or not to abort.
HAS NO EFFECT ON GOD'S SUPPOSEDLY INFINITE KNOWLEDGE. You cannot rationally claim that God knows everything and also claim that when a woman chooses to abort, God didn't know she was going to make that choice! Therefore if an unborn human has a soul because God puts it there (per your claim quoted above), and if killing an ensouled entity is murder, then if the woman aborts, GOD is partly an accomplice to the murder! Entirely because of the Standard Claim that God knew the abortion was going to happen even before installing the soul.

ON THE OTHER HAND, OF COURSE, since God is far more rational than brainwashed/idiotic abortion opponents, God knows that there is absolutely no reason why an unborn human needs a soul. A soul is not "life force" (especially since the hypothesized existence of "life force" was absolutely proved false in 1828), and DNA is perfectly capable of controlling every aspect of an unborn human's development and actions ("kicking" in the womb is Nature's answer to a question first posed by NASA: How do you fight bone loss in a reduced-gravity environment?) --and since God knows everything, God knows that DNA is perfectly capable of controlling every aspect of an unborn human's development and actions! It is at birth that an infant human begins acting innocently, and therefore, rationally, that is the best time for it to be given a soul.

CAN'T SHOW I'M MISTAKEN? Tsk, tsk! If unborn humans don't have souls, then there is no problem with Judgement of souls of miscarried unborn humans, when the main things those souls can be associated with is theft from, and poisoning and drugging another human.

You can't measure the supernatural so you have no real clue what God actually does in the womb.
WE CAN MEASURE CLAIMS MADE BY RELIGIOUS ENTHUSIASTS. Such as the claim that every individual human body has a soul --even though the number of human bodies in the womb does not always remain constant, per perfectly Natural physical events. Such as the claim that souls are immortal and cannot be either destroyed or created by purely physical events. WE CAN BE RATIONAL. Even though religious enthusiasts apparently don't know how to do that.

And until souls in the womb understand right and wrong years later, they are not adjudicated guilty by God.
NICE TRY, BUT NO CIGAR. If they can't understand for years, then why do they need to start inside unborn humans, instead of starting at birth? Therefore we have another way to reach the Question: What does an unborn human need a soul for?
 
Re: Christian Abortion Hypocrisy

I would hope and assume that everybody on this forum agrees that murder is wrong.
IRRELEVANT TO THE OVERALL ABORTION DEBATE. Murder means killing a person, such as, say, an intelligent extraterrestrial alien being peacefully walking down the ramp of a landed flying saucer --not the killing of a mere-animal entity like an unborn human.
 
Re: Christian Abortion Hypocrisy

With all due respect, this requires defining when life begins. At what point is that if not at conception?
 
Re: Christian Abortion Hypocrisy

Also, if an alien we have never witnessed before counts as life, why is it that a being whose functions can be measured, heartbeat can be felt, and was reproduced by humans, doesn't? That's like saying a new species of insect counts for more than human lives.
 
Re: Christian Abortion Hypocrisy

With all due respect, this requires defining when life begins. At what point is that if not at conception?

Life began billions of years ago.

A person begins when he/she is born alive from the mothers womb.

That is my belief.
 
Re: Christian Abortion Hypocrisy

What happens at birth that signifies that the fetus is now a human? As I assume you would count premature babies, it cannot be a time period surely?
 
Re: Christian Abortion Hypocrisy

With all due respect, this requires defining when life begins. At what point is that if not at conception?
PERSONHOOD HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH LIFE. We know this because we expect, in the not-distant future, to be building True Artificial Intelligences, fully equal to humans in cognitive and other abilities.
 
Re: Christian Abortion Hypocrisy

How is life defined, then? If robots are now life, the definition is warped, and life is now made meaningless. To count AI the same as a human or more important, that is ultimate subjectivity of truth. If truth is then subjective, why do we have laws? Why was Stalin a "bad man" for murdering millions? If human life is worthless, why not kill us all off so we have to grow less food? I believe life is sacred and meaningful, and should not be tossed aside. All due respect to you and your opinions, but subjectivity of truth is dangerous.
 
Re: Christian Abortion Hypocrisy

Also, if an alien we have never witnessed before counts as life, why is it that a being whose functions can be measured, heartbeat can be felt, and was reproduced by humans, doesn't? That's like saying a new species of insect counts for more than human lives.
PERSONHOOD HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LIFE. Otherwise, why don't you claim that a lobster qualifies as a person, eh? You actually do know what a person truly is. Just Answer this simple Question: "If you were visiting a modern well-equipped medical research laboratory, and some madman with a machete cut your head off in an attempt to murder you, but rescuers arrived in time, would you want them to save your headless human body, or save your severed head, to save YOU-THE-PERSON?" (And we most certainly have the technology to keep either alive, else no one would be talking about doing "head transplant research".)
 
Re: Christian Abortion Hypocrisy

I am not saying humans are the only life, i am simply saying humans are a type of life (superior because we have souls, but that is not the topic of this thread). I am saying though, that I think it is wrong to classify an unborn child as LESS than a lobster. How are they not humans?
And your scenario is interesting to me. I believe that what you are referring to as "Me the person" is my conscience, correct? If so, that serves (to me) to prove that I have a conscience, and something more enduring than a body. But I digress.
We must answer at what point humans are alive, I think, to answer this.
 
Re: Christian Abortion Hypocrisy

What happens at birth that signifies that the fetus is now a human? As I assume you would count premature babies, it cannot be a time period surely?
HUMANNESS AND PERSONHOOD ARE TWO TOTALLY DIFFERENT AND UNRELATED THINGS. For example a "hydatidiform mole" is a 100% human and 100% alive entity that begins to exist with an ovum-fertilization event, just like a normal human embryo, but not even the most vehment of abortion opponents will insist that a hydatidiform mole is a person deserving rights. MORE: When an adult human happens to be brain-dead and on life-support, at the time that brain death is verified, no mistake possible, a Death Certificate gets filled out. Note that the only part of that adult human body that is dead is the brain --all the rest of that human is still alive. Nevertheless, the living human body is not a person and does not have right-to-life; after the Death Certificate is filled out, it is perfectly OK for the life-support "plug" to be pulled. MORE, since we fully expect extraterrestrial intelligent alien beings to be non-human, yet qualify as persons, that is yet another reason why personhood and humanness are too totally different and unrelated things.

AN UNBORN HUMAN IS 100% HUMAN FOR THE ENTIRETY OF A PREGNANCY --and it means absolutely nothing, in terms of personhood.
 
Re: Christian Abortion Hypocrisy

If you would, could you define your definitions of human and person to me?
 
Re: Christian Abortion Hypocrisy

What happens at birth that signifies that the fetus is now a human? As I assume you would count premature babies, it cannot be a time period surely?
Like I said before.

Life began billions of years ago. We are all a product of what came billions of years ago.

What separates a child born is the fact that it is no longer bound to the mothers physiology.

At the point where it emerges alive from the mothers womb, it is a person. But it had life before birth....as did the sperm and egg that hooked up before it became a zygote, embryo or fetus.



The sperm look alive to me!
 
Re: Christian Abortion Hypocrisy

I understand that this is currently an unpopular view, however, I believe in a young earth that was created by God 6,000-8,000 years ago. I also believe that while yes, individual cells are alive, they are just that, cells, until they meet to form a zygote. At that point, that embryo is a sacred life, and the carrier of a human life and soul.
I do not believe in evolution, either. I believe evolution is an impossible scientific hypothesis that gets God out of the picture of life and authority.
 
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Re: Christian Abortion Hypocrisy

How is life defined, then?
IRRELEVANT TO THE ABORTION DEBATE. Unborn humans are alive. But since they are not persons (provably cannot possibly qualify as persons!), they have no right-to-life and can be killed. Simple!

If robots are now life,
IRRELEVANT TO THE ABORTION DEBATE. Robots will one day be primarily relevant to the topic of personhood. It is more likely that "life" will be defined in terms of machinery, than machinery will be called "alive".

the definition is warped, and life is now made meaningless.
IT IS NOT A PROBLEM, except perhaps for ignorant abortion opponents.

To count AI the same as a human
IN TERMS OF PERSONHOOD --yes, we expect that to happen in the not-distant future. However, since no human person qualifies as "more" of a person than any other human person, why should we make an exception for robotic persons, or for non-human persons? If an entity has what it takes to qualify as a person, fine. If it has more, so what?

or more important, that is ultimate subjectivity of truth. If truth is then subjective, why do we have laws? Why was Stalin a "bad man" for murdering millions? If human life is worthless, why not kill us all off so we have to grow less food?
YOU SEEM TO HAVE A POOR UNDERSTANDING OF "HUMAN LIFE". Read this.

I believe life is sacred and meaningful, and should not be tossed aside.
YOU CANNOT SURVIVE WITHOUT KILLING. Your immune system routinely destroys invading life-forms every hour of every day. One of the greatest-of-all stupidities of abortion opponents is to call themselves "pro-life" when The Fact Is, They Are Only Pro Human Life, And All Other Life Can DIE, As Far As They Are Concerned. Tsk, tsk!

All due respect to you and your opinions, but subjectivity of truth is dangerous.
EVERYTHING IS DANGEROUS. Here's something about ordinary water, for example.
 
Re: Christian Abortion Hypocrisy

While I do appreciate your water site as humorous, I disagree on many accounts. First, All of those points are relevant. Defining life is the main issue I think we are having here, and saying that life is irrelevant is like saying guns are unimportant to a police officer debate. Second don't know who "we" is, because I certainly do not see AI as equal to humans in any way. Third, killing bacteria is different than killing humans. Not all life is equal. If you had to choose between saving the life of a human or a bacteria, I daresay anyone might choose the human.
Personhood is very important to the very nature of this debate.
 
Re: Christian Abortion Hypocrisy

I am not saying humans are the only life, i am simply saying humans are a type of life (superior because we have souls, but that is not the topic of this thread).
YOU ARE EXHIBITING STUPID PREJUDICE, essentially saying that human life is the only type of life that matters. But since other entities can say a very equivalent thing about themselves, the result of such Stupid Prejudice is this. LOGICALLY, it is much better to claim that personhood matters most, regardless of the entity that has it (and as I mentioned before, it is provably impossible for unborn humans to have personhood).

I am saying though, that I think it is wrong to classify an unborn child
IT IS WRONG TO CLASSIFY AN UNBORN HUMAN AS A "CHILD". Here's the proof of that. YOU are more similar to a newborn baby than any unborn human is similar to a newborn baby.

as LESS than a lobster.
NOT NECESSARY. All that matters is, neither the lobster nor the unborn human qualifies as a person.

How are they not humans?
WRONG QUESTION. Since humanness is irrelevant and has nothing to do with personhood. Only personhood matters. Therefore, the correct question is, "how are unborn humans not persons?" And The Answer Is: They cannot exhibit any characteristics different from the characteristics exhibited by ordinary animals. Meanwhile, actual persons can exhibit characteristics that ordinary animals cannot match. Here is a significant amount of information about that.

And your scenario is interesting to me. I believe that what you are referring to as "Me the person" is my conscience, correct?
NOT QUITE. Basically, a person is a mind. The body is irrelevant. That's why True Artificial Intelligences will eventually qualify as persons (because of their minds), and that's why various extraterrestrial aliens can be expected to qualify as persons (because of their minds), and that's why, after decades of research, various scientists have claimed that dolphins qualify as persons (because of their minds). Meanwhile, unborn humans don't have person-class minds, period. They only have animal-class minds (or no minds at all, such as during the earliest development stages, before the brain begins to exist).

If so, that serves (to me) to prove that I have a conscience, and something more enduring than a body. But I digress.
YOU HAVE A PERSON-CLASS MIND. That's what matters.

We must answer at what point humans are alive, I think, to answer this.
NOT IN THE SLIGHTEST. Life has absolutely nothing to do with personhood. Consider various fantasy stories that include ghosts. Ghosts are disembodied persons, right? Not biologically alive, but still able to interact with others in a person-class way (as described in those fictions, anyway).
 
Re: Christian Abortion Hypocrisy

If you would, could you define your definitions of human and person to me?
HUMANNESS IS DEFINED BY BIOLOGY. Personhood is defined by mental capabilities that ordinary animals cannot match. I linked this, about those capabilities. Perhaps you should read it.
 
Re: Christian Abortion Hypocrisy

Well, I must say that I vehemently disagree with what was just said, however, it is also nearly 1 am. :) Both of us have vastly different views, and I am glad we can express them freely here. That being said, I respectfully say thank you for the conversation, and I hope you will think on what was said.
 
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