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Bad Defense By Trump

Thorgasm said:
Do you think the dems should have gone to court?
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At best those suits would have extended past the election (as intended. Just look at the course and timing of cases involving the subpoenas of Trump's tax returns). At worst they would have ended at SCOTUS where decisions have reliably favored Trump. Such decisions would have created the likely legal precedent reducing Congressional oversight powers. Finally, going through the courts effectively cedes to the argument that Congress does not itself have subpoena and oversight authority.

Going to the courts would have been a bum deal for Congressional oversight in every way.
 
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Athanasius68 said:
Doesn't matter.
It was delivered.
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That sounds like something Trump would callously say to Puerto Ricans as they were burying their dead after that horrific hurricane.
 
Cardinal said:
At best those suits would have extended out past the election (as intended. Just look at the course and timing of cases involving subpoenas of Trump's tax returns). At worst they would have ended at SCOTUS where decisions have reliably favored Trump. Such decisions would have created the likely legal precedent reducing Congressional oversight powers. Finally, going through the courts effectively cedes to the argument that Congress does not itself have subpoena and oversight authority.

Going to the courts would have been a bum deal for Congressional oversight in every way.
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You may be right about the courts. The courts are the only way to test it though. I think Roberts may have the integrity to do the right thing though. The timing sucks but it is what it is.
 
Thorgasm said:
You may be right about the courts. The courts are the only way to test it though. I think Roberts may have the integrity to do the right thing though. The timing sucks but it is what it is.
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That would be true if the courts moved quickly and if the final court wasn't ideologically weighted. But the speed of the lawsuits was the feature in the obstruction. And if utilized as a matter of course, it really does make Congressional oversight symbolic only.
 
Cardinal said:
We'll take the GAO's word over yours, but thanks for your uninformed opinion.
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Yes in your world he is guilty of withholding aid to the ukraine. The same aid that factually arrived early.
 
Cardinal said:
That would be true if the courts moved quickly and if the final court wasn't ideologically weighted. But the speed of the lawsuits was the feature in the obstruction. And if utilized as a matter of course, it really does make Congressional oversight symbolic only.
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It's a catch 22. Either not test it or test it and wait for a maybe.
 
ecofarm said:
Management doesn't provide its own oversight. How stupid.
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And Management can disagree with the conclusions of oversight.
And when that happens, there are procedures to follow.
As per the law.
 
Thorgasm said:
You may be right about the courts. The courts are the only way to test it though. I think Roberts may have the integrity to do the right thing though. The timing sucks but it is what it is.
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What are you expecting Roberts to do?
 
Athanasius68 said:
And Management can disagree with the conclusions of oversight.
And when that happens, there are procedures to follow.
As per the law.
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Accountability oversees management. Do you understand that?
 
Thorgasm said:
It's a catch 22. Either not test it or test it and wait for a maybe.
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Yes, it's as a catch 22, but one option is less lose-y, and what the House ultimately opted for was arguably better because it allowed them to move forward, and they ended up getting enough testimony to make an airtight case even without Trump's inner circle. You can't really argue that eventually succeeding in getting Mulvaney, Bolton and Pompeo to testify would have accomplished anything, for two reasons:

1) Those witnesses would have probably just ended up citing Executive Privilege, and
2) As we can see from Republican reactions to the Bolton and Parnas bombshells, it wouldn't have moved the needle in the Senate anyway.

Trust me, all of this calculus was done way in advance.
 
Cardinal said:
Yes, it's as a catch 22, but one option is less lose-y, and what the House ultimately opted for was arguably better because it allowed them to move forward, and they ended up getting enough testimony to make an airtight case even without Trump's inner circle. You can't really argue that eventually succeeding in getting Mulvaney, Bolton and Pompeo to testify would have accomplished anything, for two reasons:

1) Those witnesses would have probably just ended up citing Executive Privilege, and
2) As we can see from Republican reactions to the Bolton and Parnas bombshells, it wouldn't have moved the needle in the Senate anyway.

Trust me, all of this calculus was done way in advance.
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I am sure it has. Time will tell.
 
Cardinal said:
Not really. Sure, Trump panicked when the scandal first broke, and in fact all Republicans were panicking for a good month before they settled on attacking the impeachment process as a defense in addition to outright gaslighting. But if the White House can block subpoenas with impunity then, ultimately, oversight isn't really a thing.
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I hat is what starr is doing as we speak, he is attacking the process, did once say that ump didn't do it.
 
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