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Alabama Senate approves near-total ban on abortion; sends bill to the governor

SmartCat said:
How to Disagree, by Paul Graham

If we're all going to be disagreeing more, we should be careful to do it well. What does it mean to disagree well? Most readers can tell the difference between mere name-calling and a carefully reasoned refutation, but I think it would help to put names on the intermediate stages. So here's an attempt at a disagreement hierarchy:

DH0. Name-calling.

This is the lowest form of disagreement, and probably also the most common. We've all seen comments like this:
u r a fag!!!!!!!!!!
But it's important to realize that more articulate name-calling has just as little weight. A comment like
The author is a self-important dilettante.
is really nothing more than a pretentious version of "u r a fag."


It is unfortunately true that most political arguments on internet forums never rise above the lowest two levels of Paul Graham's hierarchy of disagreement.

If you must know, I think Karl Marx had two valid insights, and was wrong about everything else.

By resorting to name calling you reveal that you cannot refute my argument that those who are opposed to abortion and universal health care do not deserve to be called "pro life." They have other concerns that they prefer not to discuss candidly.
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LOL! You must be kidding. I just pointed out a fact, and you don't like it.
 
Trump said:
Blacks make up 7% of population and 40% of abortions...GOP fights against abortions which would result in more black babies...which party is promoting racism?
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That's pretty stupid. Absolutely irrelevant to the discussion and pretty stupid.
 
wolfsgirl said:
Balanced, not completely denied or criminalized, as many of these new laws seek to do.
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I agree 100%.

I'm a conservative who leans to the right on this issue, but when it comes to the "ban all abortions" crowd, I view them no differently than I do the "abortion on demand" crowd... I can't stand either of them.

This issue boils down to the same question I've struggled with morally my entire life... Where to draw the line? Speaking strictly concerning adult women, I tend to agree with the heartbeat argument. With all of the reliable methods available today to prevent a pregnancy from occurring, along with the invention of the morning after pill, I don't see drawing the line at a heartbeat to be unreasonable. Of course their are exceptions, but generally that's my view on the situation.

I'm a strong believer in a state's right to make their own laws, including on abortion, but as far as the Alabama law is concerned, I think it goes way too far and I don't agree with it. On the bright side, I'm confident the courts will strike it down.

.
 
cpwill said:
This is a pretty smart analysis. I'm not sure if I agree with all of it, but it made me think - thanks for posting :)



I will say, if SCOTUS rules that a state can protect what it identifies as an unborn child, then what happens is the battle just goes back to the States.


And our national politics can become much less acrimonious. That's a result worth hoping for.

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Overturning Roe vs Wade will cause political turmoil. Some states like California will add amendments to their state constitutions defending abortion by name. Other states, particularly in the Bible Belt will prohibit abortion, perhaps even in their Constitutions, and impose severe punishment for abortion doctors and women who have abortions. Because I have always been ambivalent about abortion, I will look on the chaos with a sardonic smile.
 
Anthony60 said:
LOL! You must be kidding. I just pointed out a fact, and you don't like it.
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It is not a fact that I am a Marxist. I have never been a Marxist, but I have known and liked people who were. I have read enough of Marx to be aware of his errors.

There are varieties of Marxists. They all agree that the writings of Karl Marx are a reliable guide to political action. I have always thought that Marx's disregard for nationalism causes Marxists to pursue mistaken policies. For most people most of the time loyalties of race, nation and ethnicity are stronger than loyalties of class. Marx cannot explain the First World War, the rise of Italian Fascism and Nazism, the popularity in the United States of the Klu Klux Klan, and the fact that in the United States the white working class is a Republican constituency.
 
Trump said:
Blacks make up 7% of population and 40% of abortions...GOP fights against abortions which would result in more black babies...which party is promoting racism?
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So, you think it is racist to allow black women to have the right to have abortions? My twisted logic meter is pegged.
 
cpwill said:
It's a problem because American Conservative has always meant the preservation of the Classic Liberal ideals of our founding. So, yes, the argument that all men are created equal and endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights would indeed be a conservative position.

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Current conservatives are not classic liberals by any stretch if that meaning. This abortion issue is proof of that
 
Trump said:
Blacks make up 7% of population and 40% of abortions...GOP fights against abortions which would result in more black babies...which party is promoting racism?
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The gop. Abortion is voluntary
 
I may not like this decision, it's one made at the State Level, which is where this issue belongs.
 
Grand Mal said:
You're doing the same thing, conflating something a Republican did with a conservative accomplishment. If you identify as a conservative that doesn't mean you get to lock arms with every Republican in history. It wasn't until Reagan and Goldwater and the western contingent took ownership of the Republican Party that Republican meant conservative.
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On the contrary, it is you who is conflating modern (well, 20th Century) Fusionism with all of Conservatism across US history. No one attempted to conserve or appeal the ideals of the Founding prior to the 1950s?

It's certainly true that Republicans have often not been conservative. Teddy Roosevelt was a full bore Progressive, as was Hoover. Nixon tried to impose price controls. Etc.

But the project to enforce the before that all men are created equal, with certain inalienable rights? That was absolutely a project built on the ideals of the Founding.

Same with the Democrats. In my lifetime there were lots of conservative Democrats. Hell, had George Wallace got the chance to run against Nelson Rockefellar you would have had a conservative Democrat against a liberal Republican.
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Rockefeller, certainly. Wallace was a populist, and a good bit more old school progressive than people like to admit. Modern leftists like to claim that support for segregation was somehow automatically conservative because it makes them The Good Guys in a simple morality play, but you have to ignore quite a lot of history to get there.




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ocean515 said:
I may not like this decision, it's one made at the State Level, which is where this issue belongs.
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If every issue belongs at the state level.....why have a federal government?
 
vegas giants said:
If every issue belongs at the state level.....why have a federal government?
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That's an interesting take based on what I posted.

However, the answer to your unrelated question is too obvious to spend any effort on.

I would suggest you read something about the Constitution and the perspective of our Founding Fathers when they created the US Government.
 
Anthony60 said:
The left proves it everyday.
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You posting this proves absolutely nothing.

Don't you understand how control works? Telling women they have to carry a fetus to term is, by default, controlling, authoritarian BS.

I swear it's like Trump and the evangelical movement have addled the brains of all the conservatives in this country.
 
ocean515 said:
That's an interesting take based on what I posted.

However, the answer to your unrelated question is too obvious to spend any effort on.

I would suggest you read something about the Constitution and the perspective of our Founding Fathers when they created the US Government.
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I am well read on the constitution and frankly fo not care what the founding fathers perspective. I care about what they wrote
 
vegas giants said:
Current conservatives are not classic liberals by any stretch if that meaning. This abortion issue is proof of that
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You think that an inalienable Right to Life isn't a Classic Liberal ideal? That the State exists to protect individual rights from abuse is pretty central to Classic Liberalism.

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vegas giants said:
Current conservatives are not classic liberals by any stretch if that meaning. This abortion issue is proof of that
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Current conservatives are regressives of the worst description, especially social conservatives. They are ideologues of the worst admiration and have completely destroyed the republican party, making it a shell of its former self and a whore to the evangelical movement.
 
ocean515 said:
Ok. You understand that their perspective, and what they wrote are interrelated?
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"I like what the Founders wrote. I just don't want to understand it."

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