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60 percent of Americans say Trump tax plan will benefit wealthy (POLL)

Chomsky said:
Exactly.Those who don't get the tax cut - the middle-class.
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Gosh, a constant use of power by the ultra-wealthy to ensure they get *even more* at the expense of everyone else. I wonder where else I've seen that trend evidenced...
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BUt look at the folks in this thread saying like a broken record - tax is theft! Robbing the rich to give to the poor!

Those poor ultra-wealthy people are so persecuted I tell ya, we're all lucky we have such white knights here to defend their persecution!
 
Nap said:
Lol, this is such a ridiculous statement. A tax cut isn't giving the "rich" money it is merely letting people keep the money they earn.

You talk about what is morally right but can you tell me why it is morally wrong for a group of people to steal money from a rich person, but it is somehow justified for that group to vote for the government to take it from them.
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Yeha yeah. all taxes are theft and governments shouldn't exist. anything useful to add?
 
Taylor said:
The vast majority - something like 85% - get a tax cut.
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I've now seen that, even though it seems a small bone thrown out for the GOP to have that talking point, while they in turn cut corporate taxes by a massive amount.

But even then, I'm still skeptical. They cut corporate rates directly, but base the middle-class cuts on the old convoluted deduction schemes without changing the rates much. It smells to me like smoke-and-mirrors. Why not just cut the middle-class rates to match the cut in corporate rates?

But still, here's my question and why I don't believe the accuracy of the middle-class cuts:

"If everyone gets a tax cut, and services are not cut, who the hell pays for it?"
 
Chomsky said:
I've now seen that, even though it seems a small bone thrown out for the GOP to have that talking point, while they in turn cut corporate taxes by a massive amount.

But even then, I'm still skeptical. They cut corporate rates directly, but base the middle-class cuts on the old convoluted deduction schemes without changing the rates much. It smells to me like smoke-and-mirrors. Why not just cut the middle-class rates to match the cut in corporate rates?

But still, here's my question and why I don't believe the accuracy of the middle-class cuts:

"If everyone gets a tax cut, and services are not cut, who the hell pays for it?"
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The kids and unborn of course, as we so often do, because generational warfare is JUST FINE AND DANDY with us, and I dont mean just the R's either.

Our moral compass was thrown into the trash long ago.

It gets in the way of the Good Life dont ya know....
 
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Taylor said:
On average, $370 for the second quintile and $940 for the middle quintile.
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Can you post that link?

I believe I saw a report that the GOP numbers were fudged by using their estimate of rising wages due to the cuts, but I'm not sure if that applies to these numbers or their increase in the deficit number.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
How can 85% get a tax cut when 45% pay no fed income taxes?
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Because they're looking at all federal taxes, not just the income tax - so if the child tax credit is increased, for example, then your overall federal tax burden goes down regardless of whether or not you previously paid income tax.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
The kids and unborn of course, as we so often do, because generational warfare is JUST FINE AND DANDY with us, and I dont mean just the R's either.

Our moral compass was thrown into the trash long ago.
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In this, I will agree with your ethical condemnation.

Not sure if my numbers are correct, but I just divided the current deficit by the number of citizens, and came up with $60K!

But only half of Americans pay taxes. So I believe the more accurate number is $120K per taxpayer. That's a lot of burden to put on my kids starting out in life.

Now I know it doesn't work exactly like this, but I think this may be illustrative. Because if not my kids, than yours, or my neighbor's, or someone else's kid is going to pay this.
 
Chomsky said:
Can you post that link?

I believe I saw a report that the GOP numbers were fudged by using their estimate of rising wages due to the cuts, but I'm not sure if that applies to these numbers or their increase in the deficit number.
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Not easy to do right now from my phone/connection, can do later ... might be easy to locate, though (and check my memory). Numbers are from the tax policy center and also reported by the Wash Post. I remember it worked out to a "raise" of ~1% for the 2nd-4th quintiles and ~3% for the 5th quintile.
 
Taylor said:
Because they're looking at all federal taxes, not just the income tax - so if the child tax credit is increased, for example, then your overall federal tax burden goes down regardless of whether or not you previously paid income tax.
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This is the kind of shoddy thinking that results when welfare programs are run through the tax systems. What we should be doing is looking only at the people who pay taxes, and find out what happens to them. Getting additional welfare is getting addition welfare, it is not a tax cut....you can not cut from 0, as taxes are by definition monies sent to the government.
 
Chomsky said:
I'm not going to deny all that Trump's doing with dereg and Taxes will have some marginal effect.

But I think you're greatly off with jobs returning to the States in any significant numbers.

Taxes mean nothing, if there is not a business case to be made. Why move your manufacturing to use expensive labor in a litigious highly regulated country with high labor rates, when you are already up & running with a cheap and unregulated alternative? It makes no sense.

We're never going to accept jobs with the working standards of 3rd world countries.
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Oh yes it does make sense.

Offshoring, or shifting production from U.S. plants to foreign facilities, has taken a considerable toll on the U.S. economy mainly due to the cost to do business in the U.S. But recent developments have made the prospect of manufacturing domestically much more feasible and this Tax Cut in the Corporate rate just sweetens the pot.

First off we are not talking third world manufacturing for all lost jobs.

For the last couple of years there have been economic troubles for those corporations that have shipped their operations overseas. There have been rising wages in China and elsewhere along with the increases in cost of international shipping the products. You see the same market forces that have pushed American jobs overseas are now about to help bring some of those jobs back.

With Trump cutting jobs killing regulations which are hidden taxes along with cutting the Corporate rate to 20 percent, it's a win win. And it is already happening. GE, Walmart, Boeing, Ford are just a few who are re-opening up shop here in the U.S. in some of their productions. And every time a company does that, it brings back blue collar jobs and opportunities for positions for engineers and high tech folks.
 
Chomsky said:
In this, I will agree with your ethical condemnation.

Not sure if my numbers are correct, but I just divided the current deficit by the number of citizens, and came up with $60K!

But only half of Americans pay taxes. So I believe the more accurate number is $120K per taxpayer. That's a lot of burden to put on my kids starting out in life.

Now I know it doesn't work exactly like this, but I think this may be illustrative. Because if not my kids, than yours, or my neighbor's, or someone else's kid is going to pay this.
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I think that the calculation has been made that when the global world order collapses none of the debts will be paid, that we will start fresh, so we might as well take all the debt we can and party like its 1999 (those who are on net owed money will of course have other ideas).

Or maybe we simply dont give a damn anymore.

Surely Sir when you look at this thread and Washington you know that I am right that we are about to get visited by GREAT PAIN, that the collapse of America is stunning in its breadth, by this I mean the fiber of the men and women......that we are too far gone to avoid the resulting calamity headed our way.

We are the junkie staring into the abyss.
 
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Hawkeye10 said:
This is the kind of shoddy thinking that results when welfare programs are run through the tax systems. What we should be doing is looking only at the people who pay taxes, and find out what happens to them. Getting additional welfare is getting addition welfare, it is not a tax cut....you can not cut from 0, as taxes are by definition monies sent to the government.
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But this isn't simply an income tax bill, it makes changes to corporate taxes and excise taxes - so all federal taxes except the payroll tax.
 
Taylor said:
But this isn't simply an income tax bill, it makes changes to corporate taxes and excise taxes - so all federal taxes except the payroll tax.
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Whatever, the idea that these incompetents can pass a tax bill of any form is outrageously optimistic given past performance.
 
Mach said:
Those poor ultra-wealthy people are so persecuted I tell ya, we're all lucky we have such white knights here to defend their persecution!
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Top 5%? You have a very different idea of what it means to be "ultra wealthy" than I do.
 
Fenton said:
Yep, there are a LOT of economically illiterate Americans out there. Bernie and Obama supporters, no doubt.

Here's the deal, you people and the econony and job killing agenda you support lost.
Not only in November but you've been getting your clocks cleaned since 2010

Time to let the grown up fix what Obama and the Democrats screwed up
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Screwed up? How is digging us out of the largest recession in history and avoiding a nation wide possibly world wide depression screwing up.

I have always been Independent but it is historically very, very clear that democrats are.by far better at managing the economy.
 
TurtleDude said:
given the wealthy can be anyone making more than the respondent to the poll, you might be dealing with most tax payers since half the country doesn't pay any federal income tax
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You don't call payroll tax income tax?
 
Taylor said:
Top 5%? You have a very different idea of what it means to be "ultra wealthy" than I do.
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Are you suggesting the ultra-wealthy are not buried in that top quintile? They are. If you are saying you think the ultra-wealthy in that quintile aren't bigger gainers than the bottom of that quintile, let's investigate it, I think you're wrong.

You are correct that top 5% is not ultra-wealthy, but I never claimed it was. Even top 1% is not. I'm an evangelist on this myself. It's part of why the 99%, occupy wall-street nonsense had no clue. 1% isn't ultra-wealthy, and it certainly isn't all Wall Street...
 
Couple problems with your post: “mooching”? Didn’t that go out with Reagan’s baloney about welfare queens and young bucks on public assistance? What’sgeneral assistance in your county? Civilized societies take care of the less fortunate or less capable. If a few lazy louts get handouts who cares? Price of modernity. Think of them as military contractors making useless weapons.

And if SS or Medicare are in trouble, raise taxes/cut benefits, raise retirement age, etc. We can afford it, as we are far less taxed than the rest of the developed world. Or (don’t faint, conservatives) support unions, raise the minimum wage and/or do other things that eliminate mooching.
 
Mach said:
They are. If you are saying you think the ultra-wealthy in that quintile aren't bigger gainers than the bottom of that quintile, let's investigate it, I think you're wrong.
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I hope someone does investigate it. Last I looked (which was quite some time ago) there was definitely a class of people who were making too much money to benefit from any credits or other savings built into the code, but did not make enough to take advantage of some of the more sophisticated ways to save money on taxes. Those are "the rich" people who are perhaps paying too much and could stand to see some of their share more evenly distributed across quintile.
 
At the root of this trickle-down proposal...

The proposal roughly doubles the standard deduction for middle-class families, expanding it to $24,000 for married couples, from $12,700, and setting it at $12,000 for individuals, from $6,530 today. Republicans also plan to expand the child tax credit to $1,600 from $1,000 and add a $300 credit for each parent and nonchild dependent, such as older family members, though that credit would expire after five years.

linkypoo...​

Meanwhile the rich folks tax cuts... are permanent. Whoda thunk it?

What a ****ing shocker. Buy off the non-rich with a temporary tax break to ensure a permanent tax break for the rich.
 
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